worst arguments why games aren't art.

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nuba km

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So for my English class I had to do a presentation and I did it on why games are art. After the presentation (in which I clearly defiant art as 'something meant to be admired in and of itself') I got asked questions and one person said 'how can games be art if they are fictional' this is not out of context and word for word what he said (trust me you don't forget that kind of stupidity) of course all of my class apart from the people who play call of duty went 'what!!!' and I explained to him most great works of art are fictional and he said 'ya but those ain't games' meaning that he thought something could be art if fictional but not for games. after class he asked me why I thought call of duty (specifically modern warfare 2) was bad art and I told him because the bad writing voice acting and lack of story and he replied 'it has to be art because 7 million people bought it on opening day' and his other reason 'it is hyper realistic' this isn't out of context he also thought he was better at saying what art is because he those art gcse even though I researched the development of the word art from its original meaning to modern times.

So two things:
1. What to you think of this guys response?
2. What stupid arguments have you heard to why games aren't art?
edit for some reason when I tried to post my topic it said it failed at doing so so tried again and this as resulted in two of the same topic sorry.
 

Vampire cat

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Apr 21, 2010
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HAH! MW2... Hyper Realistic... Stop it, no more!

1. Why I don't see a problem with him opening his mouth to ask the first question, what he follows up with is obviously not words crafted by a brilliant mind... I think his response was thoughtless, filled with predigest and likely he's a classic CoD fan-boy.

2. To why they aren't art? Uh, none I guess. Games are maybe too young to be accepted as art right now anyway, just give it some years and people will start to come around, just as soon as the fear-mongers of the world find something else to make people afraid of.
 

Eireronin

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Oct 29, 2010
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1.I'm a tad bit confused as to why he jumped from "games aren't art" to "Call of Duty has to be art"

2. Curtosy of one rather talkative old woman during a 6 hour bus ride, "they're just an excuse for 20 year olds to sit in front of a tv for hours killing things and getting angry" promptly followed by 2 hours of been told what's been happening on her favourite soaps.
 

veloper

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nuba km said:
So for my English class I had to do a presentation and I did it on why games are art. After the presentation (in which I clearly defiant art as 'something meant to be admired in and of itself')
Defined maybe?

Regardless of whether that was a good definition, are games really meant to be "admired"?
Games are enjoyable, provided the game doesn't suck, not admireable.
 

Link XL1

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Apr 6, 2010
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1) the guy is very funny, and while and i wasnt actually there, i suspect he may have been trolling you

2) "games aren't art cause they caused all high school shootings!" ok, so i didnt actually hear anyone say that, but it does sound like a good jack thompson response
 

Tsaba

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Oct 6, 2009
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just because it's art

doesn't mean it's really bad art. I shit you not this is a real modern art painting.

Source: [link]http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork?workid=20567&roomid=3669[/link]

EDIT: as for contributing towards this discussion, dude, wow, I don't know if I have ever heard something so retarded in my life. I guess mine would be when someone said it's not art because it's not a painting, which would mean he just has a very narrow perception of what is "art" and to him I would show this picture.
 

imnot

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Apr 23, 2010
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Hyper realistic, I think he needs a smack on the head.
With a brick.
 

nuba km

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veloper said:
nuba km said:
So for my English class I had to do a presentation and I did it on why games are art. After the presentation (in which I clearly defiant art as 'something meant to be admired in and of itself')
Defined maybe?

Regardless of whether that was a good definition, are games really meant to be "admired"?
Games are enjoyable, provided the game doesn't suck, not admireable.
thank you for the correct word and I went on to elaborated that this pretty much all entertainment fit into this definition and because that definition is neither a complement of insult I went on to say good art is something with a meaning and thought but into it and bad art is something stupid with a lack of meaning. this is because books, painting, movies are something to enjoy and not necessarily admired and that the though and meaning bring it closer to be admired and therefore making it better art.
 

veloper

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ghii3 said:
veloper said:
nuba km said:
So for my English class I had to do a presentation and I did it on why games are art. After the presentation (in which I clearly defiant art as 'something meant to be admired in and of itself')
Defined maybe?

Regardless of whether that was a good definition, are games really meant to be "admired"?
Games are enjoyable, provided the game doesn't suck, not admireable.
Well paintings and sketches and such, more traditional forms of art can just look good.
In the same way movies can just be fun to watch.
Games don't have to be incredible in story, writing etc. they can just be fun.
It would have been much simpler if he used the broadest (and most useless) definition of art: anything made by man.
People may still disagree wit the definition, but nobody would be able to deconstruct the claim.
 

nuba km

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Link XL1 said:
1) the guy is very funny, and while and i wasnt actually there, i suspect he may have been trolling you
no he was being 100% serious. he even at one point said Shakespeare isn't art because it isn't realistic and that Shakespeare was just a emo prick. also as a side note he even asked some other people who were trying to troll me why they didn't think CoD was art. I think you should also now before I did my presentation he did one about the call of duty serious.
 

nuba km

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Suki the Cat said:
2. To why they aren't art? Uh, none I guess. Games are maybe too young to be accepted as art right now anyway, just give it some years and people will start to come around, just as soon as the fear-mongers of the world find something else to make people afraid of.
I said STUPID arguments to why they aren't art that you have heard maybe from an old lady or California.
 

veloper

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nuba km said:
veloper said:
nuba km said:
So for my English class I had to do a presentation and I did it on why games are art. After the presentation (in which I clearly defiant art as 'something meant to be admired in and of itself')
Defined maybe?

Regardless of whether that was a good definition, are games really meant to be "admired"?
Games are enjoyable, provided the game doesn't suck, not admireable.
thank you for the correct word and I went on to elaborated that this pretty much all entertainment fit into this definition and because that definition is neither a complement of insult I went on to say good art is something with a meaning and thought but into it and bad art is something stupid with a lack of meaning. this is because books, painting, movies are something to enjoy and not necessarily admired and that the though and meaning bring it closer to be admired and therefore making it better art.
Even so, "art" is so broad, you can pick any defnition you like, from art is anything made by man, to the far more practical, art = money.

The real question is: why would we even want to our hobby to be lumped in with the rest?
Do we want to attract pretentious crowds to gaming?
 

Roganzar

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Jun 13, 2009
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veloper said:
nuba km said:
So for my English class I had to do a presentation and I did it on why games are art. After the presentation (in which I clearly defiant art as 'something meant to be admired in and of itself')
Defined maybe?

Regardless of whether that was a good definition, are games really meant to be "admired"?
Games are enjoyable, provided the game doesn't suck, not admireable.
Games are admired constantly. Everytime you see a new planet depicted visually for you in an FPS or when say Ezio climbs to the top of a tower to unlock more of the map and the camera pans around showing more of Rome (this specific example cuz I was just playing it) or any other time you keep playing just to see what comes next. Its all admiration, just a more active admiration. Even this guy and his plug for MW2 obviously admired what he was playing. We all admire the games we play, maybe not realize it, I certainly didn't realize it, in those terms, until I read this.

And so what if some people subscribe to the Steven Colbert definition of art, (or anything being important), "It made lots of money."
 

nuba km

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veloper said:
Even so, "art" is so broad, you can pick any defnition you like, from art is anything made by man, to the far more practical, art = money.

The real question is: why would we even want to our hobby to be lumped in with the rest?
Do we want to attract pretentious crowds to gaming?
the reason I gave my definition is so that people see were I come from but the reason I want people to see games as art is so that they can accept when a game tries to handle a mature topic (rather then use it for sales *cough* no Russia *cough*) that there won't be a big backlash and that games have the right to free speech like all other art forms e.g. books, movies,tv etc. and that games like silent hill 2 and bioshock are treated with respect and not just seen as games nothing more then entertainment.
 

veloper

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nuba km said:
veloper said:
Even so, "art" is so broad, you can pick any defnition you like, from art is anything made by man, to the far more practical, art = money.

The real question is: why would we even want to our hobby to be lumped in with the rest?
Do we want to attract pretentious crowds to gaming?
the reason I gave my definition is so that people see were I come from but the reason I want people to see games as art is so that they can accept when a game tries to handle a mature topic (rather then use it for sales *cough* no Russia *cough*) that there won't be a big backlash and that games have the right to free speech like all other art forms e.g. books, movies,tv etc. and that games like silent hill 2 and bioshock are treated with respect and not just seen as games nothing more then entertainment.
What little influence we have on gaming, is limited to our choice to buy games.

Gaming won't get any respect nomatter how we spin it and gaming doesn't need respect to prosper, only money.

I like gaming as entertainment and I would love for game studios to cater to nerds again. The opposite of pandering for the respect of the public. Less casual fratboy games and more games like JA2, MOO2, XCOM, PST, Elite.
 

Hussmann54

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Listen, I have never felt that art needed to be defended in terms of its title. Some people see layers of paint on a canvas, others see carefully crafted masterpieces, and some even see both. The point is
if you think its art, why the hell do you feel it needs to be defended?
if you think its not art, why the hell do you need to attack it?

Seriously people, what prize is there to be had in proving somethings status when it is subjective anyway? What great award is to be had when people (even on the flippin internet, no doubt) feel the need to argue it. I have never seen "official art" or "unofficial art" just "art" or "not"

this kind of behavior leads me to wonder IF PEOPLE EVEN UNDERSTAND *WHY* SOMETHING IS ART AND NOT JUST WEATHER OR NOT IT QUALIFIES......

the fact that people have to argue it just makes me want to put a *NOT ART* stamp on it just to prove a point. I am not a professional, neither are most people on this forum.(((( AND NO! AN ART DEGREE DOESNT MAKE YOU A ******* EXPERT ON IT, IT MEANS YOU CAN SIT THERE AND WRITE A BULL**** ANALYSIS ON A PAINTING. ughhh.... egotistical, self righteous little pricks)))) Point is, why the hell do you need a professional to give you a thumbs up or thumbs down on this, isnt your own opinion enough? So what if people think some video games are offensive, that isnt what is stopping people from calling porn "Art" (actually only a government grant is in that case lol)

So 1) you feel the need to have "Official people call it art for you to feel good about it.
and 2) if they dont give it the "Thumbs up" then you whine and cry on a forum and feel the need to defend YOUR OPINION from the BIG NASTY EVIL MEANIES!

COME ON PEOPLE! it is YOUR OPINION, and for that, it shouldnt need to be defended..

unless......

You are part of what more and more people consider the B**** generation who have no self security and are continuously seeking it from other in order to feel good about it.

To quote Yahtzee "Why dont you roll over and let them stomp on the other side of your face while they are at it?" The fact that it is even a debate for them proves how insecure some people are.

Your welcome..
 

nuba km

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Hussmann54 said:
I did the topic of why games are art because we were meant to write about something we like or care about I also gave the reason to why I think games are art making sample analyses of bioshock, silent hill 2, shadow of the callouses and limbo. my favourite game borderlands is bad art I can accept that and I know different people have different definition but this guys opinion is stupid and has no logic behind it just being grounded in the fact he is a fan-boy trust me the only game he plays is CoD and he dismisses everything else as stupid or 'gay'and trust me I have confidence and for the most part I don't care what people think of me I great my friends with a hug which is normally rejected but hey it's not like the world ended and I am too a person who thinks that some people should get over themselves and enjoy life. I did my presentation not to force people to accepted my opinion but to see why I spend so much time playing games and you took this forum all wrong either because I didn't phrase what I was trying to say or you had a bad day or you have had enough of people shouting GAMES ARE ART I'M NOT WASTING MY LIFE (thinking: please confirm this so I can feel good).
 

nuba km

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veloper said:
What little influence we have on gaming, is limited to our choice to buy games.

Gaming won't get any respect nomatter how we spin it and gaming doesn't need respect to prosper, only money.

I like gaming as entertainment and I would love for game studios to cater to nerds again. The opposite of pandering for the respect of the public. Less casual fratboy games and more games like JA2, MOO2, XCOM, PST, Elite.
I rather people see that games aren't corrupting their youth but are just like movies books or tv it has it's good it's bad and it's mediocre stuff this will come over time but I was just trying to give people an inside to what I spend so much of my time on and I want to include more people into video games then keep people out and that will be easier when games have respect then the game industry also makes money more money then if it just went for nerds and this would mean we see more variety and more risk in games because they are more likely to make money. the games industry still caters to nerds but it needs a LARGER not SMALLER audience to prosper we need to avoid the collapse that comic books had when they decided to make their audience smaller which caused comic books to be seen as mainly for nerds one of the reason they need to raise prices on them so they will get their money back but if they had a larger audience the prices could be and properly would be smaller in order to attract people with less money to them and even a larger audience. What brought me to games were the amazing worlds they presented what kept me was the social aspect but what I want more is deeper experiences that present questions that movies present that doesn't mean they won't be enjoyable in fact they will properly be more enjoyable.