Would this be animal cruelty? Or is my mum correct?

[Headsprouter]

Recently, me and my mum have been arguing about an incident involving our pet rabbit.
Well, she got a little over exited and peed on the sofa (specifically on a blanket that was on the sofa) and my mum thought it right to introduce the pee to her face, to "let her know" she's doing wrong.
One thing: my rabbit knows she did wrong anyway, she just wasn't within range of one of her little "areas" at the time.
But the point is, is she(as in, my mum) right to do this? Is it known to be an effective method? Is an ACCEPTED method? Or is she wrong? Please, your help would be appreciated.
If she is wrong, and this annoys you, feel free to show it.

edit: okay, guys, NOT animal cruelty, I just really wanted to know whether or not it was an accepted method of training. And I doubt it would be for rabbits, seeing as they are legomorphs. They om-nom-nom on their poop.

 

[mornal]

I know people do this with dogs to help housebreak them or whatever the word is. I'd assume you could do it with rabbits too, but if your rabbit has indeed already been trained I'd say it's unnecessary.

 

[King of the Sandbox]

I'd say since it doesn't have to live in the wild, worry about it's food running out, or being eaten by so many different things it's not even funny, or being subject to a hunters bullet, that getting it's nose in a little pee is a fair trade.

 

[Anah'ya]

Recently, me and my mum have been arguing about an incident involving our pet rabbit.
Well, she got a little over exited and peed on the sofa (specifically on a blanket that was on the sofa) and my mum thought it right to introduce the pee to her face, to "let her know" she's doing wrong.
One thing: my rabbit knows she did wrong anyway, she just wasn't within range of one of her little "areas" at the time.
But the point is, is she(as in, my mum) right to do this? Is it known to be an effective method? Is an ACCEPTED method? Or is she wrong? Please, your help would be appreciated.
If she is wrong, and this annoys you, feel free to show it.

I know people do this with dogs to help housebreak them or whatever the word is. I'd assume you could do it with rabbits too, but if your rabbit has indeed already been trained I'd say it's unnecessary.

It is utterly pointless.

People still do it, thinking it will work or help with anything, however misinformed they may be. It does jack-shit but teach the animal to make sure not to do whatever it was doing the last 2 seconds before being "punished".

And usually that is not peeing.

Effective training is done with positive reinforcement given latest 2 seconds after the deed, otherwise the animal is unable to connect the two. Effective punishment the same, although inflicting discomfort on animals for something as ridiculous as peeing is unnecessary.

That said, while training your dog (or rabbit), make sure you always have a rolled up newspaper within easy reach. So once your dog (or rabbit) does something wrong and you witness the result of that deed, proceed with grabbing the newspaper and whacking yourself over the back of the head real hard while saying: "I did not pay enough attention!"

 

[Jacynduhh]

my mum used to do that with our cats when i was little, i don't think it did much good. the animal should learn where to go toilet eventually, i don't think putting it's face in it's mess helps.

 

[WolfThomas]

I don't think it's animal cruelty. Then again I don't think it's animal cruelty to snap ones neck, skin it and eat it. So yeah.

 

[mad825]

nvm.

She got angry, no big deal. Animal crudity is nearly overrated and if not most of the time underrate as we are animals as well.

 

[artanis_neravar]

Recently, me and my mum have been arguing about an incident involving our pet rabbit.
Well, she got a little over exited and peed on the sofa (specifically on a blanket that was on the sofa) and my mum thought it right to introduce the pee to her face, to "let her know" she's doing wrong.
One thing: my rabbit knows she did wrong anyway, she just wasn't within range of one of her little "areas" at the time.
But the point is, is she(as in, my mum) right to do this? Is it known to be an effective method? Is an ACCEPTED method? Or is she wrong? Please, your help would be appreciated.
If she is wrong, and this annoys you, feel free to show it.

I know people do this with dogs to help housebreak them or whatever the word is. I'd assume you could do it with rabbits too, but if your rabbit has indeed already been trained I'd say it's unnecessary.

It is utterly pointless.

People still do it, thinking it will work or help with anything, however misinformed they may be. It does jack-shit but teach the animal to make sure not to do whatever it was doing the last 2 seconds before being "punished".

And usually that is not peeing.

Effective training is done with positive reinforcement given latest 2 seconds after the deed, otherwise the animal is unable to connect the two. Effective punishment the same, although inflicting discomfort on animals for something as ridiculous as peeing is unnecessary.

That said, while training your dog (or rabbit), make sure you always have a rolled up newspaper within easy reach. So once your dog (or rabbit) does something wrong and you witness the result of that deed, proceed with grabbing the newspaper and whacking yourself over the back of the head real hard while saying: "I did not pay enough attention!"

Bullshit, animals remember a lot more then what they were just doing, and they know the smell of their own urine, putting their nose in their mess and scolding them is completely acceptable

 

[Anah'ya]

Bullshit, animals remember a lot more then what they were just doing, and they know the smell of their own urine, putting their nose in their mess and scolding them is completely acceptable

Did you just bullshit me?

This is an old myth. Animals cannot connect what you are doing with what they did wrong if the deed has passed. They will recognise if they did something wrong by your behaviour, not by what they did. Research it, look it up. I will not bother going into more detail, as this is a forum for video games I do not expect geeks to know jack-shit about animal training past their experience as pet owners.

I happen to train them. Horse, dog, rabbit, parrot.

I too have fun into "old" schools following the good ole "rub their nose into their shit" doctrine, along with the hitting the horse/dog after the connection to the bad deed has already passed. Eventually it gets the job done, so hey, it cannot be wrong, eh? Luckily I live where old and wrong theories eventually get discarded, where cats no longer get their claws ripped off, dogs are no longer allowed to have their ears and tails cut off for the sake of being "pretty" and we no longer use choke collars or electro shock.

Sorry to say, but you are misinformed.

That said, electro shock punishment and clicker training are the two hard facts and training methods taking advantage of the animals behaviour and ability to make a connection between the deed (good or bad) and the consequence (good or bad). Though anyone who still thinks negative conditioning is better than positive reinforcement should get a shock collar strapped to thei--- hm, I got a bit carried away there.

Anyway. You are wrong.

Cheers.

Take care.

Etc.

 

[Jandau]

Bullshit, animals remember a lot more then what they were just doing, and they know the smell of their own urine, putting their nose in their mess and scolding them is completely acceptable

It's not so much a matter of them not remembering, but rather of them connecting what they did with the punishment/reward. Think about it like this: You wake up, do a bunch of stuff that day and in the afternoon, a guy walks into your room, starts yelling in a foreign language you do not understands and puches you in the face. Unless you happened to be doing something at the moment, you'll stand there wondering why the fuck did he just punch you. If you get punched just as you finish shitting on his bed, you'll likely get the idea.

 

[artanis_neravar]

Bullshit, animals remember a lot more then what they were just doing, and they know the smell of their own urine, putting their nose in their mess and scolding them is completely acceptable

Did you just bullshit me?

This is an old myth. Animals cannot connect what you are doing with what they did wrong if the deed has passed. They will recognise if they did something wrong by your behaviour, not by what they did. Research it, look it up. I will not bother going into more detail, as this is a forum for video games I do not expect geeks to know jack-shit about animal training past their experience as pet owners.

I happen to train them. Horse, dog, rabbit, parrot.

I too have fun into "old" schools following the good ole "rub their nose into their shit" doctrine, along with the hitting the horse/dog after the connection to the bad deed has already passed. Eventually it gets the job done, so hey, it cannot be wrong, eh? Luckily I live where old and wrong theories eventually get discarded, where cats no longer get their claws ripped off, dogs are no longer allowed to have their ears and tails cut off for the sake of being "pretty" and we no longer use choke collars or electro shock.

Sorry to say, but you are misinformed.

That said, electro shock punishment and clicker training are the two hard facts and training methods taking advantage of the animals behaviour and ability to make a connection between the deed (good or bad) and the consequence (good or bad). Though anyone who still thinks negative conditioning is better than positive reinforcement should get a shock collar strapped to thei--- hm, I got a bit carried away there.

Anyway. You are wrong.

Cheers.

Take care.

Etc.

Considering everyone one of my dogs have learned this in a very short time, I would say yes it works. And you really think that because you train animals you know everything that works and doesn't work in every case? Yeah just go ahead and keep believing in your delusions, but don't try to condescend to people over the internet, it doesn't make you look smart or more professional.

 

[artanis_neravar]

Bullshit, animals remember a lot more then what they were just doing, and they know the smell of their own urine, putting their nose in their mess and scolding them is completely acceptable

It's not so much a matter of them not remembering, but rather of them connecting what they did with the punishment/reward. Think about it like this: You wake up, do a bunch of stuff that day and in the afternoon, a guy walks into your room, starts yelling in a foreign language you do not understands and puches you in the face. Unless you happened to be doing something at the moment, you'll stand there wondering why the fuck did he just punch you. If you get punched just as you finish shitting on his bed, you'll likely get the idea.

But if he shows you what he is yelling about (brings you to the sink and points the the dirty dishes you left there) then you are going to know what he is talking about. I'm not saying that you should beat your dog, but I am saying that showing your dog what they did wrong and scolding them (using your scolding tone words don't seem[footnote]I know dogs don't truly understand people but they do start to recognize the way certain words sound and associate them with the actions[/footnote]to matter) then they will learn what they did wrong rather quickly

 

[Lilani]

Recently, me and my mum have been arguing about an incident involving our pet rabbit.
Well, she got a little over exited and peed on the sofa (specifically on a blanket that was on the sofa) and my mum thought it right to introduce the pee to her face, to "let her know" she's doing wrong.
One thing: my rabbit knows she did wrong anyway, she just wasn't within range of one of her little "areas" at the time.
But the point is, is she(as in, my mum) right to do this? Is it known to be an effective method? Is an ACCEPTED method? Or is she wrong? Please, your help would be appreciated.
If she is wrong, and this annoys you, feel free to show it.

Eh, I don't know about cruelty, but if the rabbit does alright when the facilities are near and available then I think it is a bit unnecessary. Just make sure you have plenty of places for her to pee and she's aware of them. And if ever you're going to take her away from that area, try and have her pee before you move her, or at least move them around accordingly.

 

[Neuromaster]

Calling this animal cruelty devalues real animal cruelty. Whether it's effective or not is immaterial; her motive was to attempt to train the animal without hurting it, and that's what she did.

Starving an animal is cruelty. Beating an animal is cruelty. Leaving an animal in a hot car is negligence/cruelty.

Pushing an animal's nose in their mess is at worst a questionably effective means of training.

 

[TheJesus89]

It's pretty much accepted as the correct method of training. not sure if it's true, but it's accepted as true.


And your animal doesn't understand what it did. Newsflash: It's an animal. And a rodent at that. Not the smartest bunch in the animal kingdom.


Also, you let your rabbit out around the house? That's a little odd. I'm not judging, but still.

 

[Falconsgyre]

But if he shows you what he is yelling about (brings you to the sink and points the the dirty dishes you left there) then you are going to know what he is talking about. I'm not saying that you should beat your dog, but I am saying that showing your dog what they did wrong and scolding them (using your scolding tone words don't seem[footnote]I know dogs don't truly understand people but they do start to recognize the way certain words sound and associate them with the actions[/footnote]to matter) then they will learn what they did wrong rather quickly

No, actually. They don't. Try this, if you can: collect a sample of your dog's urine. Then pour it on the floor. He'll look very guilty, even though he didn't pee on the floor. He's just scared because he knows pee on the floor makes you mad.

If you can't (and asking you to collect a sample of dog pee is probably pretty unreasonable), try it with something like the trash can. If you come home and find the trash can is knocked over every day and scold your dog, every time he sees a knocked over trash can he will look guilty. This is because he connects the trash can being knocked over with you being angry. He does not understand that the action he took, rummaging through the trash, would result in the trash can being knocked over. He just understands that whenever the trash can is knocked over, you get angry. If you knocked over the trash can yourself, he'd look just as "guilty." The only way you can get a dog to understand that it's the behavior that makes you mad is to catch him in the act. There have been studies that show this pretty conclusively.

As to how your dogs learned, I'm betting you did something else in addition to rubbing their noses in their pee. Or rather, if you did do that, you probably did it very soon after they peed, so they understood the connection between them peeing and you being angry. Showing their noses in their own urine did not enhance the benefit.

 

[Falconsgyre]

Nonsense. I can't speak to bunnies, but dogs are smarter than 2 seconds. I've seen dogs avoid an area of an accident hours later before you've even said anything.

Technically, what studies show is that the benefit starts to fade within a couple seconds. Meaning that it'll be much more effective if you correct within a couple seconds of the behavior. Any more than 10 seconds or so and the dog won't understand at all.

What you've done is made the dogs realize that urine on the floor makes you angry. They don't understand that peeing on the floor makes you angry unless you catch them in the act. You may have taught them both these things at the same time, so it can be difficult to differentiate. Note my post above.

 

[Binerexis]

Animal cruelty would be causing actual harm to the animal. Getting urine to the face may not be pleasant for the animal but good luck with convincing a court that it's cruelty.

 

[artanis_neravar]

But if he shows you what he is yelling about (brings you to the sink and points the the dirty dishes you left there) then you are going to know what he is talking about. I'm not saying that you should beat your dog, but I am saying that showing your dog what they did wrong and scolding them (using your scolding tone words don't seem[footnote]I know dogs don't truly understand people but they do start to recognize the way certain words sound and associate them with the actions[/footnote]to matter) then they will learn what they did wrong rather quickly

No, actually. They don't. Try this, if you can: collect a sample of your dog's urine. Then pour it on the floor. He'll look very guilty, even though he didn't pee on the floor. He's just scared because he knows pee on the floor makes you mad.

If you can't (and asking you to collect a sample of dog pee is probably pretty unreasonable), try it with something like the trash can. If you come home and find the trash can is knocked over every day and scold your dog, every time he sees a knocked over trash can he will look guilty. This is because he connects the trash can being knocked over with you being angry. He does not understand that the action he took, rummaging through the trash, would result in the trash can being knocked over. He just understands that whenever the trash can is knocked over, you get angry. If you knocked over the trash can yourself, he'd look just as "guilty." The only way you can get a dog to understand that it's the behavior that makes you mad is to catch him in the act. There have been studies that show this pretty conclusively.

As to how your dogs learned, I'm betting you did something else in addition to rubbing their noses in their pee. Or rather, if you did do that, you probably did it very soon after they peed, so they understood the connection between them peeing and you being angry. Showing their noses in their own urine did not enhance the benefit.

Not true, my dog has never looked guilty when passing buy knocked over trash cans that she didn't knock over. The urine thing is kinda a dick move, the dog will know it's their urine, but since they can't conceive of any other way for the urine to be there, the only reasonable expectation would be that they must have done it and are therefore guilty.