Would Tomb Raider's story still be considered good if the main character was male? [Spoilers]

[James Joseph Emerald]

I should probably start by saying this isn't another sexism thread (at least I hope it won't be), this is more about Tomb Raider (2013)'s highly positive reception.

I completed it today and was looking at some more in-depth reviews; it seems the general consensus is that it's a bit short and the gameplay is too easy and there's too many QTEs, but the excellent story and characters more than make up for all that. And at first I agreed, but then I started thinking about it and I'm starting to wonder why.

The story is simply a composite of almost every single "shipwrecked on a strange island" cliché that can be imagined (spoilers ahead):

• 
  [li]A normal person ends up on their own, struggling to survive in the wilderness;[/li]
  [li]The island is inhabited by a dodgy cult that worship an ancient evil spirit;[/li]
  [li]An unusual force (in this case a perpetual storm) prevents them from leaving;[/li]
  [li]The main character's mentor dies and they're forced to assume the role of the hero;[/li]
  [li]A helpless damsel-in-distress gets kidnapped (repeatedly);[/li]
  [li]The cultists are trying to sacrifice a young woman in order to release an ancient evil;[/li]
  [li]One of the "good guys" betrays the group (and you can see it coming miles away);[/li]
  [li]The hero saves the day by shooting everyone and blowing everything up;[/li]
  [li]The hero then carries the damsel to safety in his/her arms, and they escape on a boat as the sun sets;[/li]

There was absolutely nothing remarkable about that plot. The only notable part of Tomb Raider's story is the main character...

On that subject I should probably point out -- for those who don't know -- that Tomb Raider's story was written by two women: Rhianna Pratchett (daughter of the famous fantasy author) and Sadie... something (I can't find anything about this other woman because the former seems to have totally eclipsed her). Because the story is written by women, I don't really view it as a triumph of writing skill that Lara Croft manages to be realistically feminine rather than a sex object. The real triumph is that the typical boy's club of game development actually let women write the story for them in the first place.

On the actual character, if you take away the fact that this is probably the most depth a female character has had in video games since April Ryan, there isn't really a whole lot to say about her. April Ryan had a broad range: she was always having charming exchanges with people and describing her surroundings with a quirky sense of humour, meeting various challenges with bravery and intelligence. Lara Croft, on the other hand, only has the opportunity to show either relentless determination or sorrow, with brief moments of relief in between. Although her reactions are realistic and relatable, there's just not enough personality on display to carry the whole story on her own. Meanwhile the supporting characters are pretty bland and the antagonist is a generic evil cult leader guy.

Ultimately, the story really isn't that great, even by video game standards. And if you discount the story and gameplay (the combat is bland, and the puzzles are easy and sparse, the platforming is almost impossible to fail and the exploration is constrained) all you really have left are the intense set pieces. Which is really just spectacle. And isn't the main criticism of the Call of Duty series and its ilk that it's all spectacle and no substance?

Don't get me wrong, I actually quite liked Tomb Raider, and I appreciate their commitment to opening the door for more female protagonists. But I'm starting to suspect the reason me and many others liked the game wasn't because it was an amazing game, but because it was cool to play as a proper female character for once. And probably if it was exactly the same, except the main character was a man, I'd consider it a cliché-ridden mindless Uncharted clone.

What do you think?

 

[Maximum Bert]

And if you discount the story and gameplay (the combat is bland, and the puzzles are easy and sparse, the platforming is almost impossible to fail and the exploration is constrained) all you really have left are the intense set pieces. Which is really just spectacle. And isn't the main criticism of the Call of Duty series and its ilk that it's all spectacle and no substance?

What? If you discount the story and gameplay of course you have little left all things should be taken into consideration its the little things that make the difference I could easily say a cat is basically the same as a dog if I started to discount things about it I mean both have 2 eyes tails fur and 4 legs they are practically identical.

As for the story I thought it was well told and engaging certainly enough for me to actually want to see what happened and like Lara (which I never have until now). If Lara was a male the story would have to be changed slightly for interactions with her and the other NPCs but the base story could stay the same and would be just as engaging and if they made the male lead as likeable as Lara was in this one then I see no reason why it couldnt have been just as good.

Great stories arent always complex or huge epics and if you want to find cliche stuff you will after all there arent that many different stories (about 7 I think it has been said) so everything is derivative of something else its just how its told rather than what is told most of the time and I think they did a good job here or balancing story with gameplay.

 

[James Joseph Emerald]

And if you discount the story and gameplay (the combat is bland, and the puzzles are easy and sparse, the platforming is almost impossible to fail and the exploration is constrained) all you really have left are the intense set pieces. Which is really just spectacle. And isn't the main criticism of the Call of Duty series and its ilk that it's all spectacle and no substance?

What? If you discount the story and gameplay of course you have little left all things should be taken into consideration its the little things that make the difference I could easily say a cat is basically the same as a dog if I started to discount things about it I mean both have 2 eyes tails fur and 4 legs they are practically identical.

I'm slightly confused by your propensity towards extremely long run-on sentences with zero punctuation, but I don't think you understand the point I'm making. I'm obviously not discounting the story, I spent half my post discussing it. I'm saying if you were to argue that "games aren't about story", it still has bland, derivative gameplay and a tendency towards big intense spectacles with little actual substance.

If you like the story despite its flaws, that's fine. We can't really account for personal taste when discussing games. But objectively speaking, there's not much about the story you could really hold up as an example of how good it is. It's just sort of a bog standard adventure story which is only really notable for having a (reasonably) realistic female protagonist.

In my opinion, of course.

 

[Maximum Bert]

And if you discount the story and gameplay (the combat is bland, and the puzzles are easy and sparse, the platforming is almost impossible to fail and the exploration is constrained) all you really have left are the intense set pieces. Which is really just spectacle. And isn't the main criticism of the Call of Duty series and its ilk that it's all spectacle and no substance?

What? If you discount the story and gameplay of course you have little left all things should be taken into consideration its the little things that make the difference I could easily say a cat is basically the same as a dog if I started to discount things about it I mean both have 2 eyes tails fur and 4 legs they are practically identical.

I'm slightly confused by your propensity towards extremely long run-on sentences with zero punctuation, but I don't think you understand the point I'm making. I'm obviously not discounting the story, I spent half my post discussing it. I'm saying if you were to argue that "games aren't about story", it still has bland, derivative gameplay and a tendency towards big intense spectacles with little actual substance.

If you like the story despite its flaws, that's fine. We can't really account for personal taste when discussing games. But objectively speaking, there's not much about the story you could really hold up as an example of how good it is. It's just sort of a bog standard adventure story which is only really notable for having a (reasonably) realistic female protagonist.

In my opinion, of course.

Long sentences with little punctuation because im tired and have to be up in 3 and a half hours for work so will make this quick.

You say you are not discounting the story but you clearly say near the end of your OP

And if you discount the story

.

Ok we will ignore that anyway as I said you have bullet pointed some story aspects and very briefly discussed and dismissed it, I am not going top defend Tomb Raider as a hallowed piece of fiction because it isnt.

My point is you are being overly dismissive as I said in my original post almost all stories are derivative especially when story is not the sole concern like here where they have gameplay to consider and I was just saying I think they have done a good job of marrying the two together much more so than most game anyway it has a nice flow to it a good story sense if you will.

Remember gameplay is also largely derivative thats why we have spectacle thats what enhances games it wont save them but window dressing is important I think most games would be pretty crap if it was all just line graphics or wire frame models with no story and no set pieces and they would be pretty hard to tell apart (inside their respective genres anyway). I actually found the combat fun you say you found it bland looks like we have a difference of opinion it engaged me enough that I never got bored of putting arrows in peoples skulls for my playthrough, while the easy and sparse puzzles just broke it up nice enough along with the gentle platforming elements and brief story segments to keep things flowing nicely.

Taken in separation none of the parts of this game are that great but they are put together in such a way as to become a greater whole. I found it a good experience it thoroughly entertained me for its duration so it did its job well as far as I am concerned, for you it may not have.

As for people only liking it because it has a decent woman protagonist tbh I dont think the majority of people care what her sex is a decent character can add to any game whether they are female, male, whatever. They are unlikely to weigh a good female character as being better than a good male character. If they say its amazing its because they liked the game as a whole if they hated it they hated the game as whole if it was just the character that was good they would have said so something along the lines of great character crap gameplay.

If they say amazing game thats obviously inclusive of everything and an overall opinion has been reached balancing all factors.

 

[PrinceOfShapeir]

I'd still like Tomb Raider if it was a guy. How often do you see the protagonist of an action game actually being vulnerable and human while still being badass?

 

[James Joseph Emerald]

Taken in separation none of the parts of this game are that great but they are put together in such a way as to become a greater whole. I found it a good experience it thoroughly entertained me for its duration so it did its job well as far as I am concerned, for you it may not have.

Well, I'm glad you enjoyed it, but like I said at the beginning of this thread, I'm talking about its reception as a whole. If you read the reviews [http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/tomb-raider] that are coming out, it's getting universal praise (87% is the average), focussing specifically on its "great story and relatable characterisation" as its biggest strength. I just don't see what's so brilliant about it, aside from the fact that everyone's glad it didn't turn out to be the misogynistic mess everyone anticipated.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

• 
  [li]A normal person ends up on their own, struggling to survive in the wilderness;[/li]
  [li]The island is inhabited by a dodgy cult that worship an ancient evil spirit;[/li]
  [li]An unusual force (in this case a perpetual storm) prevents them from leaving;[/li]
  [li]The main character's mentor dies and they're forced to assume the role of the hero;[/li]
  [li]A helpless damsel-in-distress gets kidnapped (repeatedly);[/li]
  [li]The cultists are trying to sacrifice a young woman in order to release an ancient evil;[/li]
  [li]One of the "good guys" betrays the group (and you can see it coming miles away);[/li]
  [li]The hero saves the day by shooting everyone and blowing everything up;[/li]
  [li]The hero then carries the damsel to safety in his/her arms, and they escape on a boat as the sun sets;[/li]

 

[Vault101]

havnt finished so I havnt read anything here....

...no it wouldnt have, and I thik because seeing another "white male protagonist" would have killed what made this game a breath fo fresh air

I was also surprised that Lara actually got the shit beaten out of her by those angry cultists...you dont see nathan drake getting punched in the face that mnay times (unfortunatly)

 

[TreuloseTomate]

You'd have to reverse all genders in the story. A young, sexy man trying to survive on an island and getting captured and raped by amazons.

 

[PrinceOfShapeir]

You'd have to reverse all genders in the story. A young, sexy man trying to survive on an island and getting captured and raped by amazons.

Uh...Lara never gets raped. You might want to actually play the game.

 

[James Joseph Emerald]

Something having been done to death does not make it necessarily terrible. Any plot can be ripped apart for simply being the same old, same old. Especially good ones. Fuck, even Ulysses is ultimately all about a random day in a dude's life, which by your logic would make it pointlessly bland, but we give it praise for how it went about telling that story. That being said, I haven't played the game so I honestly have no idea whether that could be done. I just want to make it clear that not having something stand out really heavily in the plot structure is not the same as being terrible, not that nothing stands out in that plot. That actually seems like a pretty interesting plot outline for the first half, and at worst a mediocre one for the second.

You're right, except that list of clichés pretty much makes up the entire plot of the game. Tack on a few fight scenes and a few "falling down a mountain" scenes and that's everything that happens in Tomb Raider covered.

The problem with clichés isn't that they exist, it's that writers rely on them too much. You could do so much more with the setting and characters. Even what someone said earlier about focussing more on Lara's transformation into a survivor would've been interesting. Instead all the dialogue and plot points are centred around going from one cliché to the next with absolutely no attempt to take an interesting spin on any of it.

I at least thought they'd do something with the fact that by the end, Lara is essentially a mass murderer. But this is only touched on with the main villain giving a brief "you're no different than me" speech (another cliché [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NotSoDifferent]) which is immediately ignored by everyone.

Even games with bad stories, like Resident Evil, attempt to have interesting twists in the plot and characters. Tomb Raider's big twist is that the annoying, fame-obsessed, amoral douche of your group ends up betraying you. I was shocked!

 

[James Joseph Emerald]

havnt finished so I havnt read anything here....

...no it wouldnt have, and I thik because seeing another "white male protagonist" would have killed what made this game a breath fo fresh air

That's actually the entire point I'm making.
I'm not suggesting the story would be better if the main character was male, just that the "breath of fresh air" you're referring to is causing reviewers to rate it higher than it ought to be.
Maybe I'll change the title to "Would Tomb Raider's story still be considered good if the main character was male?" to avoid confusion.

 

[VanQ]

Shit, now that you mention it. If they had made the new Tomb Raider a game other than Tomb Raider with a male lead character but the game was otherwise in tact including the other characters and stories... I think it would have ended up in Tropes VS Women episode two and we'd probably be arguing over it in those threads for the next few months.

Why is it okay for a damsel in distress to be rescued by a girl but not a guy? Given equal treatment, shouldn't this be just as bad?

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

Something having been done to death does not make it necessarily terrible. Any plot can be ripped apart for simply being the same old, same old. Especially good ones. Fuck, even Ulysses is ultimately all about a random day in a dude's life, which by your logic would make it pointlessly bland, but we give it praise for how it went about telling that story. That being said, I haven't played the game so I honestly have no idea whether that could be done. I just want to make it clear that not having something stand out really heavily in the plot structure is not the same as being terrible, not that nothing stands out in that plot. That actually seems like a pretty interesting plot outline for the first half, and at worst a mediocre one for the second.

Except that list of clichés pretty much makes up the entire plot of the game. Tack on a few fight scenes and a few "falling down a mountain" scenes and that's everything that happens in Tomb Raider covered.

I'll post the chart again if you want. I can go and get it. It appears we may need it. Did you not notice how KOTOR and Jade Empire were all blue? That certainly doesn't make KOTOR a terrible game, now does it?

The problem with clichés isn't that they exist, it's that writers rely on them too much. You could do so much more with the setting and characters. Even what someone said earlier about focussing more on Lara's transformation into a survivor would've been interesting. Instead all the dialogue and plot points are centred around going from one cliché to the next with absolutely no attempt to take an interesting spin on any of it.

How many games portray their protagonists as realistically vulnerable? Like none. There's a problem with you idea that the whole game is just cliche right there. It seems like you're just using the word cliche as a crutch to call out the game. Star Wars was pure cliche as well, but that is part of its charm. Yes, creating an extensively derivative work is creatively bankrupt, but from what I've seen that is by no means what has occured with this game. We are presented with a vulnerable protagonist forced to survive on her own. Three parts of that aren't far too common in games today. Vulnerable, survive, and her. Just because they dropped the ball on one to a small extent doesn't mean their only selling point was the third. That first one's still there as well. Note that I'm arguing this without having played the game so I'm just taking your word on them having dropped the ball on the survival aspects, but I don't really know if I should believe you there. It could quite possibly have been dropped in later parts of the game as part of her character arc for all I know.

I at least thought they'd do something with the fact that by the end, Lara is essentially a mass murderer. But this is only touched on with the main villain giving a brief "you're no different than me" speech (another cliché [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NotSoDifferent]) which is immediately ignored by everyone.

Most game protagonists are mass murderers. At least the people she is apparently mass murdering are part of some kind of death cult rather than a bunch of random brown people. Oh, and great job linking to TvTropes when talking about cliches. That site is basically a massive cult dedicated to spreading the good word about how cliches (tropes) are not bad and using them is an absolute necessity when writing. Plus, you picked one that probably has more depth to explore and consider than most. The idea that the hero and the villian are ultimately quite similar shows up in massive amounts of fiction, and often serves to help point out just what the story is about. Take Batman for example, every Batman villain is best described by starting with the phrase "like Batman but..." Yet the Batman universe is praised for it's above average villains more so than any other quality of the works.

Even games with bad stories, like Resident Evil, attempt to have interesting twists in the plot and characters. Tomb Raider's big twist is that the annoying, fame-obsessed, amoral douche of your group ends up betraying you. I was shocked!

And Resident Evil's big twist was that the creepy blonde dude who shows no emotion and wears sunglasses in a haunted mansion betrayed you. Also, big twists are ultimately worthless if you do nothing with them. Many games are full of twists rather than actual meaning or depth in order to make people think that something actually happened. A story doesn't need to have an unpredictable twist to be good, and a predictable twist does not make a story bad. Gollum is the most obvious traitor that has ever been written, and intentionally so. His betrayal, as easy to predict as it was, still served an important purpose though, and his eventual death while completing that act of betrayal serves to reinforce one of the central themes of the plot, that faith and good deeds are rewarded.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

Shit, now that you mention it. If they had made the new Tomb Raider a game other than Tomb Raider with a male lead character but the game was otherwise in tact including the other characters and stories... I think it would have ended up in Tropes VS Women episode two and we'd probably be arguing over it in those threads for the next few months.

Why is it okay for a damsel in distress to be rescued by a girl but not a guy? Given equal treatment, shouldn't this be just as bad?

Because when you write a game entirely about an empowering female figure it seems a bit odd to call you out on a trope who's worst quality is the possible unfortunate implications that may arise from it if you look at in a particular way? Generally, the concept of a damsel in distress is called out not simply because it exists, but because it is so prevalent and because you so rarely have a helpless male in distress, because such a character is regularly shoe-horned into the passive love interest role and is given no depth beyond being eye candy and a reward for the protagonist, and because it is almost always male power fantasies doing the rescuing. I'm assuming none other than the first apply here.

 

[James Joseph Emerald]

How many games portray their protagonists as realistically vulnerable? Like none. There's a problem with you idea that the whole game is just cliche right there. It seems like you're just using the word cliche as a crutch to call out the game. Star Wars was pure cliche as well, but that is part of its charm. Yes, creating an extensively derivative work is creatively bankrupt, but from what I've seen that is by no means what has occured with this game. We are presented with a vulnerable protagonist forced to survive on her own.

I think you need to play the game first before we have this discussion. Your entire argument seems to be based on the idea that I have some sort of bias against the game and I'm twisting its clichéd premise into something that "seems like a bad thing when it really isn't." But you can't really know that until you actually play the game you're defending.

Having a "vulnerable protagonist" is the only part of the story that is remotely fresh, and it isn't even done that well. Aside from all the grunting, cursing and crying Lara does, the game is so easy you never actually feel vulnerable: towards the end I started rushing up to enemies and dodge-killing them just for fun. And there aren't any actual survival mechanics in the game: hunting animals and scavenging for food just rewards you with a tiny amount of XP (so small there's no real reason to do it).

If the story was all about Lara being a vulnerable, desperate survivor it would have been amazing. It's the fact that this is sidelined in lieu of a cheesy cliché-ridden "save the damsel from the evil cult" plot that has my jimmies rustled. You can argue that this isn't necessarily a bad thing -- and I agree with you on that, in general -- but in this case it is, because that's all there is. It's just lazy writing; squandered potential. Far from the 9/10 tour de force people are making it out to be.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

I guess if there was a dude it would just be Uncharted with a survival drama vibe.

Not necessarily a bad game, but it's certainly more creative and appealing with a lady in the main role. Sometimes that's all you need to do - imagine Call of Duty with a female protagonist. It'd cause more critic boners than Spec Ops did.

 

[TheCommanders]

Hmm.. Tomb Raider with a male lead... well, what other IP recently release featured:

-A protagonist who went to an "uninhabited" tropical island only to become separated from their group and in terrible danger
-had to learn to survive
-featured a mystical cult
-had vaguely oriental tombs to explore
-had a protagonist who favored a bow
-featured pirates
-involved rescuing the other members of the group the protagonists came with
-had many scenes and moments heavily dependent on quick time events
-had a character who experienced implied molestation
-a main character who changed dramatically over the course of the story, and who's change was a major theme of said story

What I'm very subtly hinting at is there are a large number of parallels between the stories of Tomb Raider and Far Cry 3, the later of which featured a male protagonist. Of course the major difference is that Far Cry is open world (although Tomb Raider sort of pretends to be). Anyway my point is, yes, a very similar story, but with a male protagonist not only would be considered as good, but already was!

Yay.