WRPG's & JRPG's

[draith007]

Back when the PS1 was still the envy of everyone on the block, I played one of the Final Fantasy games, thus being the very first "JRPG" I had ever played. At first I found its style rather beautiful, and the characters interesting, however once I got into the actual combat that makes up the game, I swiftly lost appeal. This might seem insane coming from an Otaku anime nut like myself, but I do not care for the Final Fantasy games. Around 10 years of age, I learned the term "JRPG", which means "Japanese Role Playing Game." This didn't effect me in anyway at first, but around the age of 15 it hit me, "Why is it referred to as a Role playing game? I mean nothing about it but the leveling aspect is actually role playing." I brought this up to a friend who enjoyed the final fantasy franchise, and he informed me that A: I have no good taste in games, and B: Its a cultural difference, as I prefer WRPG's, which means "Western Role Playing Game."

What he was getting at is that games like The Elder Scrolls, Fable, and Dragon age are WRPG's, and therefore very different from Japanese Role Playing games. At first this made sense, WRPG's focus on you making the character and fulfilling an epic quest based on your choices. You fill in the personality and motives, while JRPG's basically make the character for you. I found this a bit of a disappointment since I love Anime and the art style of most JRPG's, but would rather wipe my ass with 40 grit sandpaper then actually play one. I guess its the dodgy menu driven combat and boring turn by turn attack sequences. After all, if it were me, I would say "fuck the phoenix down's and this turn taking crap, lets just go over there and beat the crap out of them now!" Perhaps im missing the point of turn based combat, but nothing I can think of would really change my personal feelings on it.

However, I suddenly realized something only a year later. Zelda is a Japanese game, and Twilight princess seemed to have a rather heavy element of Anime in it. However, Zelda is NOT a JRPG, yet to me, it would seem to have MORE RPG elements than any other JRPG. You get an inventory that you can actually see the stuff when equipped, there are more outfits you can wear, and you even get a choice to say whatever you want from time to time. How come THIS isn't an RPG? I just don't understand it, sure there isn't a leveling system, but you do get heart pieces and heart containers to give you more health, which is KIND of like leveling up. I explained this to my friend, hoping for an explanation but all he kept telling me was that it was a cultural difference.

Okay okay look, if Final Fantasy 7 the empire strikes back or whatever is an RPG, then so is Zelda, Mario, Metroid Prime, Dead rising, Left for Dead, Uncharted, Far Cry, Assassin's Creed, Prince of Persia, Half-Life, and Jesus Christ's volley ball adventure 2: Satan's rematch. Why? Well because your all taking on the role of a premade character, just like JRPG's, except no menu driven combat and bullshit dialog cut scenes. I'd like to state something, I don't HATE JRPG's, I don't enjoy them, but I don't despise them, I just think a re-branding is in order, or at least a smart ass explanation. So basically I want to know what you think. I'm not bashing JRPG's, and I admit, yes, Sephiroth is the baddest mother fucker i've seen in a long time, but why is it REALLY refered to as a JRPG? Also, do you think maybe these games should be re-labeled?

 

[10BIT]

Your definition of an RPG is incorrect. RPGs are basically about number crunching, where you have (for example) x strength, y dexterity and z endurance and increasing these stats increases the damage, chance to hit/dodge and reduces damage received respectively. These stats can be improved by equipping certain items, or by collecting enough experience from fallen foes. With this definition, Final Fantasy VII is an RPG, but Zelda (bar Link's Adventure), (main series) Mario, Metroid Prime, Dead rising, Left for Dead, Uncharted, Far Cry, Assassin's Creed, Prince of Persia and Half-Life are not RPGs.

Also, I'd advise you to play a better series than Final Fantasy before judging the genre; I've never been happy with any of Square Enix's solo efforts.

 

[Azaraxzealot]

just warning you in advance, this could be perceived as a "vs" or "troll" thread

besides that, i dont like JRPGs because of the same reasons as you, but people hate to be told facts especially when they are detrimental to what they are the fanboys/girls of.

WRPGs have a lot of stagnation as well ("not europe" anyone?)

but its merely trends and what the culture prefers. perhaps Japanese developers should consider that they are a VERY small portion of the world and its not good for their economy to be up their own asses about everything they make

 

[FalseMemorySyndrome]

Final Fantasy is a vastly overrated RPG series. Period.

So many better JRPGs out there, interms on both gameplay and story. I refuse to accept that FF is anything but low-input, lazy programmed fan-service. For a good example of how good JRPGs can be, play a Shin Megami Tensei game.

Also, a pet peeve of mine is FF fanboys going on about how WRPGs like Mass Effect, Fallout and KOTOR are RPG imitators. Some people are made annoyingly ignorant by them thinking that RPG = Turn-Based gameplay and spikey haired protagonists with near-lolita love interests.

 

[Jamboxdotcom]

Your definition of an RPG is incorrect. RPGs are basically about number crunching, where you have (for example) x strength, y dexterity and z endurance and increasing these stats increases the damage, chance to hit/dodge and reduces damage received respectively. These stats can be improved by equipping certain items, or by collecting enough experience from fallen foes. With this definition, Final Fantasy VII is an RPG, but Zelda (bar Link's Adventure), (main series) Mario, Metroid Prime, Dead rising, Left for Dead, Uncharted, Far Cry, Assassin's Creed, Prince of Persia and Half-Life are not RPGs.

Also, I'd advise you to play a better series than Final Fantasy before judging the genre; I've never been happy with any of Square Enix's solo efforts.

actually, role-playing games are about playing a role, pretending to be someone other than your own boring, mundane, Joe Workaday self. the number-crunching was originally nothing more than a framework for that. however, to a certain extent, by the original definition of "role-playing game" ANY video game could be defined as an RPG, since you are playing a character or role other than yourself.

 

[draith007]

Thank you everyone for your comments, and 10Bit I dont think thats entirely accurate, I mean the definition of "Role Playing" is "the changing of one's behavior to assume a role, either unconsciously to fill a social role, or consciously to act out an adopted role." While this doesn't refer directly to games, I somehow think people would agree with me when I say "Role Playing is not about number crunching... Unless your playing Eve."

 

[Delock]

You might want to try search bar next time, because this topic has come up MANY times before.

Anyways, JRPGs don't all have turned based combat, and in fact a lot of them have moved away from this sort of system. It seems like you're basing the entire genre off of FF here.

Anyways, why JRPGs are RPGs has to do a lot with the beginning of JRPGs in general. At first, a lot of them were actually standard RPGs (hell, the first final fantasy was one) where you made your characters and focused on changing their stats. However, JRPGs started to separate from WRPGs when they decided to tell more in-depth stories that defined the characters themselves, while WRPGs kept the approach of letting the player fill in most of the details. THIS is pretty much the core difference here between the two (It's important to not that these two categories are generalizations of the most common form of RPGs, meaning a Western made RPG can explain the character's background and remove all room for interpretation, just like certain Japanese companies still make avatar rather than character based protagonists).

Final Fantasy 7 is still an RPG, because the core values are still there. You assume control of a character and are able to decide how they develop, though most of it is in the stat department (and you do so by choosing skills, weapons, and armor). Just because a character is premade doesn't mean they aren't in an RPG.

Here's the thing, the division is so great now, it's hard to remember that the roots are the same, sort of how it's hard to imagine that Assassin's Creed technically falls into the same genre as God of War which somehow shares that genre with Shadow of the Colossus.

If anything needs a rebranding first, it's action adventure, and it also needs a good fucking dividing up, as it's the most bloated, ubiquitous genre I've seen, as most every game has action and adventure in it.

TL;DR
JRPGs and WRPGs share the same core that makes them RPGs but have diverged on how to tell the story. The only rebranding necessary is one that doesn't define a game by where it's made.

 

[draith007]

I agree with you on the re-branding of action adventures, but that's a different subject. While this is based mostly on FF since its the one JRPG almost all gamers are familiar with, sadly all the JRPG's I have played were turn based, or menu driven in some way. This little article of mine wasn't meant as a Trolling attempt or anything. I just think to avoid confusion and ensure that Genre names maintain sense we may want to look into a bit of change. As I said before though, I do agree, Action Adventure should be broken down at least to more specific genres.

 

[10BIT]

actually, role-playing games are about playing a role, pretending to be someone other than your own boring, mundane, Joe Workaday self. the number-crunching was originally nothing more than a framework for that. however, to a certain extent, by the original definition of "role-playing game" ANY video game could be defined as an RPG, since you are playing a character or role other than yourself.

Thank you everyone for your comments, and 10Bit I dont think thats entirely accurate, I mean teh definition of "Role Playing" is "the changing of one's behavior to assume a role, either unconsciously to fill a social role, or consciously to act out an adopted role." While this doesn't refer directly to games, I somehow think people would agree with me when I say "Role Playing is not about number crunching... Unless your playing Eve."

If we were talking about board/table-top games, you'd be correct, but for video games, the definition is as I stated.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/role-playing_video_game

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Computer_role-playing_game

Computer RPGs are defined by the gameplay elements being similar to DnD and not by actually playing a role.

 

[draith007]

int

actually, role-playing games are about playing a role, pretending to be someone other than your own boring, mundane, Joe Workaday self. the number-crunching was originally nothing more than a framework for that. however, to a certain extent, by the original definition of "role-playing game" ANY video game could be defined as an RPG, since you are playing a character or role other than yourself.

Thank you everyone for your comments, and 10Bit I dont think thats entirely accurate, I mean teh definition of "Role Playing" is "the changing of one's behavior to assume a role, either unconsciously to fill a social role, or consciously to act out an adopted role." While this doesn't refer directly to games, I somehow think people would agree with me when I say "Role Playing is not about number crunching... Unless your playing Eve."

If we were talking about board/table-top games, you'd be correct, but for video games, the definition is as I stated.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/role-playing_video_game

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Computer_role-playing_game

Computer RPGs are defined by the gameplay elements being similar to DnD and not by actually playing a role.

Interestingly enough,although you even provided a link to your addition information... I still disagree. Im sorry if I seem to be intolerant or just unaccepting of what may be the bold faced truth, but who honestly goes "Number Crunching? time to play some HARD CORE RPG'S!" Its just not something that is engraved in the mind consciously.

 

[Jamboxdotcom]

While this doesn't refer directly to games, I somehow think people would agree with me when I say "Role Playing is not about number crunching... Unless your playing Eve."

actually, number crunching is vital to ANY mmo if you are doing endgame activities. god, i used to despise people who didn't put any thought into their character builds back when i was raiding in WoW...

 

[draith007]

While this doesn't refer directly to games, I somehow think people would agree with me when I say "Role Playing is not about number crunching... Unless your playing Eve."

actually, number crunching is vital to ANY mmo if you are doing endgame activities. god, i used to despise people who didn't put any thought into their character builds back when i was raiding in WoW...

Well of course its vital, but its not what its ABOUT. Im not trying to be a smart ass or insult anyone, im merely stating that it shouldn't be claimed that a game is an RPG because it has the element of builds.

 

[Ranorak]

Ye Old Table top RPG's used a mixture of two elements to play the game.
1) the Role Play part, where you sit around and act out your character.

2) the Roll play part, where you roll dice to see if actions or attacks worked and the damage.

Most Western RPG 'specialize' in part 1. Story telling. (though, this usually comes down to moral choices that give a good or bad ending.)

Most JRPG's 'specialize' in part 2, The stats and combat. Leaving the character fully in charge of the Game master, in this case the game.

They both have the same common ancestor and are both still RPG's

 

[draith007]

While this doesn't refer directly to games, I somehow think people would agree with me when I say "Role Playing is not about number crunching... Unless your playing Eve."

actually, number crunching is vital to ANY mmo if you are doing endgame activities. god, i used to despise people who didn't put any thought into their character builds back when i was raiding in WoW...

Yes, Builds are important and I do not deny that they serve a large purpose in MMO's and pretty much ALL RPG's. However, this is not what they are "about".

 

[draith007]

Ye Old Table top RPG's used a mixture of two elements to play the game.
1) the Role Play part, where you sit around and act out your character.

2) the Roll play part, where you roll dice to see if actions or attacks worked and the damage.

Most Western RPG 'specialize' in part 1. Story telling. (though, this usually comes down to moral choices that give a good or bad ending.)

Most JRPG's 'specialize' in part 2, The stats and combat. Leaving the character fully in charge of the Game master, in this case the game.

They both have the same common ancestor and are both still RPG's

Huh... A simple but surprisingly compelling point. Very good, I suppose that does make a lot of sense then.

 

[The Wykydtron]

I always see RPGs as crafting your own story (thats why I like Bioware RPGs so much.) I dislike most JRPGs as they see you running from one linear encounter to another with little or no storyline involvement while equiping slightly better trousers along the way.

 

[draith007]

I always see RPGs as crafting your own story (thats why I like Bioware RPGs so much.) I dislike most JRPGs as they see you running from one linear encounter to another with little or no storyline involvement while equiping slightly better trousers along the way.

I feel the same way, as I said I think a reclassification is in order, regardless of the fact that JRPG's do have many RPG elements. However, this wont happen and i've accepted that. I was just curious about how everyone else felt.

 

[Link XL1]

look guys its really very simple: an RPG is a Role Playing Game. if the game does not have you playing a role in it (wherein you can imagine a character of your own design making decisions and such) then it is not an RPG. JRPGs in general are mislabeled, however the biggest offender is Borderlands!

yes Borderlands! its not an RPG not by a long shot, and dont let anyone tell you otherwise. this is a problem with genre labelers (whoever they may be), they seem to think that because a game has a leveling system that means its an RPG. because a game has guns, that makes it a shooter. bullshit! yes these are common elements found in their respective genres but they are not requirements.

so, yes, final fantasy isnt an RPG, but the fact remains that, overall, i found it to be enjoyable. borderlands on the other hand is a first person shooter hack and slash game. the reason for this is that you go around and get missions from npcs, fight enemies, complete missions, get exp and loot, and repeat the whole process. it is not an rpg because you make no choices and quite frankly there isnt a story.

sorry for getting a bit off topic

 

[draith007]

look guys its really very simple: an RPG is a Role Playing Game. if the game does not have you playing a role in it (wherein you can imagine a character of your own design making decisions and such) then it is not an RPG. JRPGs in general are mislabeled, however the biggest offender is Borderlands!

yes Borderlands! its not an RPG not by a long shot, and dont let anyone tell you otherwise. this is a problem with genre labelers (whoever they may be), they seem to think that because a game has a leveling system that means its an RPG. because a game has guns, that makes it a shooter. bullshit! yes these are common elements found in their respective genres but they are not requirements.

so, yes, final fantasy isnt an RPG, but the fact remains that, overall, i found it to be enjoyable. borderlands on the other hand is a first person shooter hack and slash game. the reason for this is that you go around and get missions from npcs, fight enemies, complete missions, get exp and loot, and repeat the whole process. it is not an rpg because you make no choices and quite frankly there isnt a story.

sorry for getting a bit off topic

*hands you a bucket of water* This will help you when the FF fan boys light you on fire. I for one agree with your statements, but since I am not an expert in genre labels I wont build off of this.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

It's not really worth getting hung up on the term role playing. There isn't really any computer game that makes role playing more effective than face to face type experiences with other people. Even table top role playing games are mostly about things like dice rolling combat and playing with character stats.

Also, using premade characters is not normally accepted as a good reason to say that a game isn't an RPG by most veterans. It's hard to get all people to agree on exactly what something needs to be called an RPG but premade characters is one thing that you can't get people to agree as something that disqualifies a game.