A few thoughts about January 6, 2021

[BrawlMan]

U.S. Capitol riot hearing shows Trump allies, daughter rejected fraud claims

The congressional committee investigating the attack on the U.S. Capitol by Donald Trump's supporters trying to overturn his 2020 election defeat presented testimony on Thursday showing that close allies - even his daughter - rejected his false claims of voting fraud.

www.reuters.com

Jan. 6 hearing highlights 'carnage' of Capitol riot in new video footage, Trump officials concede he lost election

The House committee probing the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol by a pro-Trump mob is set to reveal new information in its first public hearing.

www.cnbc.com

I want all these monsters to receive the cruelest mercy. I want them to realize how much they failed, how much they lost and screwed up, because of their own blind hatred, prejudice, and stupidity. Once they go through and realize all that, then they have my permission to die, and suffer with in hell. They will suffer in hell and serve their new master. Whoever that new master may be? It won't be Trump; I know that.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I want all these monsters to receive the cruelest mercy. I want them to realize how much they failed, how much they lost and screwed up, because of their own blind hatred, prejudice, and stupidity. Once they go through and realize all that, then they have my permission to die, and suffer with in hell. They will suffer in hell and serve their new master. Whoever that new master may be? It won't be Trump; I know that.

I daresay they won't, they'd consider themselves heroes betrayed by the evil {insert name here}. Self reflection is most likely beyond them.

Having said that, I agree with the sentiment, I'd amend it to include being abandoned by their supporters and derided by the public. If more of this sort were seen as being clueless muppets rather than fearless or fearsome or whatever, I imagine we'd see less of this.

 

[Silvanus]

I want all these monsters to receive the cruelest mercy. I want them to realize how much they failed, how much they lost and screwed up, because of their own blind hatred, prejudice, and stupidity. Once they go through and realize all that, then they have my permission to die, and suffer with in hell. They will suffer in hell and serve their new master. Whoever that new master may be? It won't be Trump; I know that.

You OK hun?

 

[BrawlMan]

I daresay they won't, they'd consider themselves heroes betrayed by the evil {insert name here}. Self reflection is most likely beyond them.

Having said that, I agree with the sentiment, I'd amend it to include being abandoned by their supporters and derided by the public. If more of this sort were seen as being clueless muppets rather than fearless or fearsome or whatever, I imagine we'd see less of this.

Some will learn a lesson, while most others won't. Most of them are screwed and will suffer either way.

You OK hun?

I'm good. This is a combination of me venting and telling a dark joke.

 

[tstorm823]

Republican Donald Trump saying that Republican Mike Pence "deserves" to be hung is.... Democrats' fault?

No, I was referring to Agema's end conclusion of "his party is as dangerous as he is". The lion's share of evidence they used of Trump doing bad things (mind you, not planning an insurrection at the capital, just tangentially related bad things) come from Republicans around him trying to persuade him to be better or disowning him entirely. How, on that basis, does one reach the conclusion that the entire Republican Party is the equivalent of Donald Trump? I don't know, but that's definitely the case Democrats are trying to make.

 

[bluegate]

No, I was referring to Agema's end conclusion of "his party is as dangerous as he is". The lion's share of evidence they used of Trump doing bad things (mind you, not planning an insurrection at the capital, just tangentially related bad things) come from Republicans around him trying to persuade him to be better or disowning him entirely. How, on that basis, does one reach the conclusion that the entire Republican Party is the equivalent of Donald Trump? I don't know, but that's definitely the case Democrats are trying to make.

Might have something to do with the two faced nature of a lot of them.

Behind closed doors, behind the back of Trump or under threat of legal troubles, they'll snitch on Trump and disown him.

In public? They'll sing to his tune for as long as they believe they can get voters by doing it.

 

[Silvanus]

No, I was referring to Agema's end conclusion of "his party is as dangerous as he is". The lion's share of evidence they used of Trump doing bad things (mind you, not planning an insurrection at the capital, just tangentially related bad things) come from Republicans around him trying to persuade him to be better or disowning him entirely. How, on that basis, does one reach the conclusion that the entire Republican Party is the equivalent of Donald Trump? I don't know, but that's definitely the case Democrats are trying to make.

The Party has ended up being fine with several QAnon figures as their nominees and congresspeople. And a fair chunk of the party disowned Trump's election lie... but a fair chunk went to bat for him, too, placing personal power and wealth above all ethical concern.

These things don't happen without a significant cultural problem, going beyond one man. They've fostered this rancid behaviour because its useful.

 

[tstorm823]

The Party has ended up being fine with several QAnon figures as their nominees and congresspeople. And a fair chunk of the party disowned Trump's election lie... but a fair chunk went to bat for him, too, placing personal power and wealth above all ethical concern.

These things don't happen without a significant cultural problem, going beyond one man. They've fostered this rancid behaviour because its useful.

And you think this behavior is both specifically and intrinsically a Republican Party problem?

 

[Agema]

I swear, I responded to your first post above before reading this. You're developing a talent for believing exactly what Democrats want you to.

The thing you need to bear in mind is that sometimes what the Democrats want people to believe is what people should believe, because reality does not cease to be reality when the Democrats align with it.

The absolute minimum I expect from the Republicans is a cast iron guarantee that Trump will not be permitted to run for President as a candidate of their party again, and they should have done that over a year ago. I think they should cut him off more fully, such as denying him access to their party platforms, or allying with him for fundraising, etc. Their failure, at an institutional level, to disown or hold him to account in any meaningful way demeans themselves. And that goes all the way from the party executive and senior politicians to the voters.

 

[Silvanus]

And you think this behavior is both specifically and intrinsically a Republican Party problem?

QAnon is only significantly fostered and tolerated by the Republican Party establishment. The Republican Party is the only party in which a significant portion of its elected officials chose to endorse an attempt to subvert the outcome of an election.

It's not intrinsically a Republican Party problem, because the Republican Party-- which is supposed to stand for constitutionalism etc-- has been co-opted.

 

[SilentPony]

Its entirely pointless. The committee was a waste of time, they should have gone straight to a special prosecutor with orders to investigate any and all persons related to Jan 6th, and be prepared to strip people of their immunity.

As it stands its completely toothless. No higher up is going to jail. Trump will never testify or be judged and go to jail. They're just going to learn from their mistakes, do it again and this time it'll work.

The committee didn't look too hard into the events of Jan 6th because they're afraid of what they'll find. Imagine multiple members of the Republican party in on this. Capitol police. Pentagon officials. Media personalities. One of the two political parties declared a clear and present threat to the nation? It would devastate the country. It would lead to a civil war.

So the Jan 6th committee is just a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing. They'll present their findings, half of the nation will call for charges, the other half will call it fake news, the JD will choose not to charge, and it'll be forgotten by Fall.

 

[tstorm823]

The Republican Party is the only party in which a significant portion of its elected officials chose to endorse an attempt to subvert the outcome of an election.

Almost the entire Democratic Party rejected the results of the 2016 election, based on claims of collusion with Russia that were engineered directly by Clinton's campaign. There were a bunch of Democrats kicked out on Jan. 6th 2017 because they were protesting the electoral college counts. Do you really not see a parallels?

 

[SilentPony]

Almost the entire Democratic Party rejected the results of the 2016 election, based on claims of collusion with Russia that were engineered directly by Clinton's campaign. There were a bunch of Democrats kicked out on Jan. 6th 2017 because they were protesting the electoral college counts. Do you really not see a parallels?

To be fair the Trump campaign DID collude with Russia and multiple people are in jail over it. And the Democrats didn't you know...kill anyone when they protested. I don't remember the black lives matter movement storming the capital calling for the death of VP Biden.
There's a bit of a scale difference here. Two children get into a fight at school. A child shows up with a gun and shoots his entire class. Both of these are examples of violence at a school. One is clearly worse.

 

[Agema]

Almost the entire Democratic Party rejected the results of the 2016 election, based on claims of collusion with Russia that were engineered directly by Clinton's campaign. There were a bunch of Democrats kicked out on Jan. 6th 2017 because they were protesting the electoral college counts. Do you really not see a parallels?

That's an interesting revisionist view.

The Democrats institutionally accepted the result of the 2016 election. Clinton very clearly conceded. Nothing the Democrats did against Trump subsequently would have overturned the result, it would merely have forced the President to resign and the VP (Republican) would have taken over. None of the objections in the electoral college raised by a handful of congresspeople in 2017 had the backing of a single Democratic senator. No mob was bussed in, whipped up and stormed the Capitol. Nobody set about comprehensively re-writing electoral law in a mass campaign afterwards.

That suggests to me the opposite of almost the entire Democratic Party rejecting the results. They accepted it. They did certainly try to take down Trump later, but that's a different matter entirely.

* * *

The claims of collusion were not engineered by the Clinton campaign. There has been a recently a revelation that Clinton okayed releasing a story to the media that there may be suspicious activity between Trump and a Russian bank. Ultimately not true, but hardly unusual mud-slinging by the standards of US politics.

Let's remember that it was actually the FBI that investigated Trump for improper communications with Russian government officials, and there's no evidence they were prompted by Clinton (if anything, there's evidence the FBI was institutionally hostile to Clinton). These activities the FBI were investigating were different from that the Clinton campaign released some dirt on. Some of these suspicious incidents the FBI investigated can be verified as having occurred, even if no wrongdoing was proven beyond reasonable doubt. Plus that the US intelligence services have concluded that there was indeed that Russia had attempted (maybe even successfully) to interfere in a US election in Trump's favour.

But, nice try.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Let's also not forget that in the rush to defend the republican party at large, many republican members of congress sought Trump out for pardons over January 6. Clearly, republicans knew what they did was wrong or at least dubious from a legal standpoint.

 

[tstorm823]

The absolute minimum I expect from the Republicans is a cast iron guarantee that Trump will not be permitted to run for President as a candidate of their party again, and they should have done that over a year ago. I think they should cut him off more fully, such as denying him access to their party platforms, or allying with him for fundraising, etc. Their failure, at an institutional level, to disown or hold him to account in any meaningful way demeans themselves. And that goes all the way from the party executive and senior politicians to the voters.

And then what? The opposing party went absolutely scorched earth against the man, there's a balancing act between condemning Trump and approving of that behavior. The real crazies on the right at the moment are a perfect mirror of the treatment Trump got, the lesson they are learning is that scorched earth insanity is effective. It needs to not be effective. The only path to peaceful discourse is for someone like Trump to be allowed to exist and fail and disappear as a failure. Heads on pikes doesn't allow that to happen.

To be fair the Trump campaign DID collude with Russia and multiple people are in jail over it. And the Democrats didn't you know...kill anyone when they protested. I don't remember the black lives matter movement storming the capital calling for the death of VP Biden.
There's a bit of a scale difference here. Two children get into a fight at school. A child shows up with a gun and shoots his entire class. Both of these are examples of violence at a school. One is clearly worse.

The only single data point that comes close to Trump colluding with Russia is Paul Manafort showing a past associate from Ukraine public opinion polls. Nobody else with any connection to Trump went to jail for anything related to the campaign or Russia, most of those arrested were taken in on only the basis of lying to the feds.

The rioters on Jan 6th killed literally nobody. One rioter was shot by the cops, one had a heart attack, one had a stroke, one overdosed on meth, and a police officer who was there had a stroke the day after. Not a single person was killed by rioters on January 6th. There were dozens of people shot or burned during the summer before, while people built a guillotine outside of the White House and set a nearby church on fire. A man just tried to assassinate Kavanaugh.

Your facts are incorrect.

 

[tstorm823]

Nobody set about comprehensively re-writing electoral law in a mass campaign afterwards.

The Democrats did a mass campaign of haphazardly upending election rules before the 2020 election. Are you forgetting that?

The claims of collusion were not engineered by the Clinton campaign. There has been a recently a revelation that Clinton okayed releasing a story to the media that there may be suspicious activity between Trump and a Russian bank. Ultimately not true, but hardly unusual mud-slinging by the standards of US politics.

They didn't just release it to the media. They paid a foreign intelligence agent to compile a dossier of mud, then they paid a lawyer to launder some of the bad info to the FBI, then they released it all into the wild through the media.

Let's remember that it was actually the FBI that investigated Trump for improper communications with Russian government officials, and there's no evidence they were prompted by Clinton (if anything, there's evidence the FBI was institutionally hostile to Clinton). These activities the FBI were investigating were different from that the Clinton campaign released some dirt on. Some of these suspicious incidents the FBI investigated can be verified as having occurred, even if no wrongdoing was proven beyond reasonable doubt. Plus that the US intelligence services have concluded that there was indeed that Russia had attempted (maybe even successfully) to interfere in a US election in Trump's favour.

Seriously, they sent the info to the FBI. The guy charged her campaign for the thumb drives to deliver it on.

 

[SilentPony]

SNIP

What are you talking about?! An officer was literally beaten to within an inch of his life and died the next day. But I guess in your world view it doesn't count, because he died on the 7th?

 

[Silvanus]

Almost the entire Democratic Party rejected the results of the 2016 election, based on claims of collusion with Russia that were engineered directly by Clinton's campaign. There were a bunch of Democrats kicked out on Jan. 6th 2017 because they were protesting the electoral college counts. Do you really not see a parallels?

Weak as fuck, this.

Clinton conceded. The leaders of the party conceded. Some Congresspeople protested on the basis of Russian involvement in their opponents' campaign... which was, uhrm, true (and therefore entirely unlike the "stop the steal" claim, which is entirely made up bullshit from start to finish). Their protest was pretty much limited to some mild whining: no telling supporters to "fight like hell", no endorsement of death threats, no bloody insurrection that killed 7 people. The factor of scale isn't even on the same chapter, let alone the same page.

 

[Silvanus]

The Democrats did a mass campaign of haphazardly upending election rules before the 2020 election. Are you forgetting that?

They didn't, though. This was just a bunch of fairly ordinary stuff about postal votes and extended opening hours, which is only objectionable on a purely procedural level if you particularly care about that kind of thing. It didn't lead to mass fraud. It just made it easier for some people to vote.

The Republicans, on the other hand, responded to this procedural nothingburger by trying to get hundreds of thousands of legitimate votes thrown out, which would've been a democratic and constitutional fucking outrage and mass disenfranchisement. So even with that postal vote nonsense, the Republican response was more grotesquely unethical and self-serving than anything the Dems did.