A Thread for the Writers Guild of America Strike

[Silvanus]

No it went on site rental, technicians, taxes (one would hope), levies and fees for location shooting, equipment, catering, post-production work, support services, safety certifications, stunt staff (where applicable) and any number of additional functions I may not be aware of.

Like these productions aren’t John Carpenter guerrilla filmmaking with two camera, a few abandoned industrial areas and film school friends. The budget on these shows went places. I agree proper remuneration is owed to everyone but don’t be fucking asinine about what it’s for. It’s beneath you.

"Fucking asinine", nice. Have a cup of tea and a snickers.

What you're describing above are the basic trappings necessary to make professional filming possible. If you look at any series, including those with absolutely stratospheric budgets, and assume it all went on those basic trappings and thats why they can't pay their talent... you're not being serious.

For comparison's sake: She-Hulk had a per-episode budget of ~$25 million, and had two filming locations, both in the US. Game of Thrones, at its most expensive, had a per-episode budget of ~$15 million-- with filming locations in numerous countries around the world, a far larger cast, a vastly larger requirement for bespoke and specialist equipment, set design and costuming, and about ten times as many stunts.

No, an enormous chunk of that money is not going on the basic overheads associated with filming.

 

[Ag3ma]

Even if it's not yearly, for 1 episode of a show (even if that figure will likely fall as viewership / watchtime declines) it's pretty good looking round I'm seeing people say $50 a month for an actor (not a lead) in a fairly successful action film is common so 1 writing credit on 1 episode of a streaming only show which if it were a regular TV show there would be no residuals for initial broadcast, yeh it may not seem much but it's pretty good really.

Spotify, to give an example, pays ~$5 per 1000 streams of a song. $400 dollars is therefore equivalent to about 80,000 streams. Assuming scriptwriters were to use an equivalent model (without factoring in the length of the work), I would strongly suggest that ~$400 a year for one episode of a even just a middlingly popular TV show is an extraordinarily small payment, at least until the show became quite old and little watched.

Although, of course, there is no inherent reason that writers should be paid that way - a sufficient fee up front to deliver the goods is also reasonable.

The US Bureau of Labour Statistics suggests the average salary of a scriptwriter is under $80,000 a year. Obviously, that's going to be the majority earning substantially less, skewed by a minority of much higher earners. Hard to say how accurate it is, but if true, it suggests the vast majority of scriptwriters are toiling, lower middle class.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Also worth pointing out that A) writers have managers and agents who all get a cut, and B) musicians have been complaining for years about Spotify's pathetically small payouts. They'd much rather you buy an album outright

 

[dreng3]

I'm curious, did the wages of writers/actors change when the residual/roaylty culture did? Because if you used to be paid (and these are all examples/imaginary) $2 grand per episode with an expectation of $2 grand in residuals for the first three years, that's a totalt of 8 grand over three years. if that suddenly drops to $396 per year for the first three you're looking at slightly more than $3 grand total.

If the nature of business, less residual/royalty, less ownership, less rights, less freedom, less whatever changes, then so should other factors.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Indeed, the product of a worker's labour is exploited without proper remuneration very frequently. Still not seeing why this means we shouldn't improve things.

Jesus imagine how messed up the world would be if your idea took off here. You buy a TV you then have to pay the TV maker each year a portion of the cost again. You pay some-one to build you a wall then have to pay them a % of the cost again and again every year.

You just laid out a corporations wet dream there lol because they'll claim to be the ones owed the money ultimately lol

"Disconnect from reality", ok.

So let's look at it this way. The show received a budget of tens of millions per episode. How do you believe this money should be spent, if you're so adamant that it shouldn't go to the creatives? All on set design and CGI, and screw the talent?

................... We don't know how it was spent. We don't know what the writers were paid. This argument happened because a writer was complaining in essence his bonus wasn't big enough.

You do know what residuals are right?

Because you seem to be implying you think he was paid just $396 for the episode when he was already paid x amount and is now complaining a year on he's only been paid x + $396.

What are you expecting Disney to have the show have a multi million pound budget each year but not produce new episodes just throw the millions at the writers each year or something?

The production budget isn't for residuals, that's not how any of this works.

 

[Silvanus]

Jesus imagine how messed up the world would be if your idea took off here. You buy a TV you then have to pay the TV maker each year a portion of the cost again. You pay some-one to build you a wall then have to pay them a % of the cost again and again every year.

Lol no, none of that follows. "My idea" is just residuals, and it already functions perfectly well in creative industries.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Spotify, to give an example, pays ~$5 per 1000 streams of a song. $400 dollars is therefore equivalent to about 80,000 streams. Assuming scriptwriters were to use an equivalent model (without factoring in the length of the work), I would strongly suggest that ~$400 a year for one episode of a even just a middlingly popular TV show is an extraordinarily small payment, at least until the show became quite old and little watched.

Except you forget the scale of operations.

With artists generally it's them (a solo artist or band of up to 5 people) and their record company that gets paid out of that.

With She-Hulk it would be all the actors getting a cut, the producers and directors and then all the script writers.so that hypothetical $5 is split 20 to 25 ways easily per episode.

Although, of course, there is no inherent reason that writers should be paid that way - a sufficient fee up front to deliver the goods is also reasonable.

That's worse, actually really worse as it means a random breakout success doesn't get rewarded (see Squid Game). The point of residuals is to account for massive success suddenly happening.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Lol no, none of that follows. "My idea" is just residuals, and it already functions perfectly well in creative industries.

And outside of it?

Also again, you do understand what residuals are right?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

 

[Gordon_4]

How do they fuck that up so consistently that it’s an issue here? I’m serious, is their payroll still a bunch of middle aged men in funny hats with those weird receipt machines where you crank the handle? This shit has been computerised and automated for at least twenty years if not longer.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

How do they fuck that up so consistently that it’s an issue here? I’m serious, is their payroll still a bunch of middle aged men in funny hats with those weird receipt machines where you crank the handle? This shit has been computerised and automated for at least twenty years if not longer.

Points out that Microsoft in the past couldn't manage to pay developers on time before.

It's nothing new.

I mean if it were residual pay maybe I could understand because they have to calculate and collate the income from a thing to sort out residuals based on contracts and cuts etc which could be a lot of moving parts but actual regular pay should be coming on time or with a vary hefty penalty per late payment.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

How do they fuck that up so consistently that it’s an issue here? I’m serious, is their payroll still a bunch of middle aged men in funny hats with those weird receipt machines where you crank the handle? This shit has been computerised and automated for at least twenty years if not longer.

I mean, you can't dangle somebody's pay over their head while pushing for reshoots and just a little more promo work and we'll give you the check we promise if you pay promptly and in full

 

[BrawlMan]

​

 

[Ag3ma]

That's worse, actually really worse as it means a random breakout success doesn't get rewarded (see Squid Game). The point of residuals is to account for massive success suddenly happening.

I have to seriously question your honesty then,, because you are employing precisely this argument (e.g. #54, #65) to criticise writers expecting a bigger residual. The thing is, you are (for once) right on this argument, because in many fields people do indeed get a salary for providing their labour, and if that labour creates something that turns out to be hugely successful then they potentially see none of the revenue from it beyond their basic salary. You can't have it both ways.

 

[bluegate]

Points out that Microsoft in the past couldn't manage to pay developers on time before.

It's nothing new.

I mean if it were residual pay maybe I could understand because they have to calculate and collate the income from a thing to sort out residuals based on contracts and cuts etc which could be a lot of moving parts but actual regular pay should be coming on time or with a vary hefty penalty per late payment.

Wrong choice of words there.

They could, they just decided they didn't need to pay on time.

 

[Silvanus]

And outside of it?

?

We're talking about the creative industry here.

Also again, you do understand what residuals are right?

Uhrm, yes. I just believe they should be proportionate, whereas you seem to believe they should be fuck-all.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

I have to seriously question your honesty then,, because you are employing precisely this argument (e.g. #54, #65) to criticise writers expecting a bigger residual. The thing is, you are (for once) right on this argument, because in many fields people do indeed get a salary for providing their labour, and if that labour creates something that turns out to be hugely successful then they potentially see none of the revenue from it beyond their basic salary. You can't have it both ways.

That's the thing with Nuance.

I don't think the Netflix fuck all approach to residuals is right.

I however find it funny that a person who wrote one episode of a, to put it mildly, controversial show that most people don't hold up as some great classic or big hit is upset that he only got an extra $396 on top of his (as yet undisclosed) salary which when compared to other writers in other area actually is far more than their pay. Like I can't think of many people talking about She-Hulk (except in the context of their writers claims) for quite a while after the show finished. No-one really cares about it, it's being left to basically rot in the corner and be forgotten. It's like said writer lives in a different reality where She Hulk was some absolute classic show that everyone just wanted to watch again and again and was the next Game of Thrones or something.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

?

We're talking about the creative industry here.



Uhrm, yes. I just believe they should be proportionate, whereas you seem to believe they should be fuck-all.

I believe $396 is proportionate for 1 episode of She-Hulk residuals lol.

 

[Silvanus]

I believe $396 is proportionate for 1 episode of She-Hulk residuals lol.

Yes, which is patently ridiculous for an absolutely enormous project like that.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Yes, which is patently ridiculous for an absolutely enormous project like that.

They're 30 minute episodes...............

Mostly self contained with little need to make sure some complex series of twists is followed though on.............

With a budget per episode bigger than Game of Thrones and you're running half as long so even more budget to play with.

How is it an enormous project when there's basically no major limitations and outside of "No you can't have a replica of the Battle of Helms deep happening in downtown new York" level stuff.