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Seanchaidh

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And to counter this, you have a counterfactual scenario in which the USSR comes to Czechoslovakia's aid.
The only reason they did not is because Poland and Romania would not let them. And your government and France decided that was fine. The only way to rate Molotov-Ribbentrop as 'worse' or 'far beyond' is if you truly prefer that Nazi Germany takes all or nearly all of the territory or you just rate Poland as more important than Czechoslovakia (strategically it was likely the reverse; the Sudetenland was powerful defensive terrain unlike anything which Poland had on its border with Germany). The UK traded with Germany, including scrap metal, throughout the 1930s until they were formally at war. Trading with Germany in the interwar period is hardly unique or special to the Soviet Union no matter how damning you try to make it sound.
 
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Silvanus

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The only reason they did not is because Poland and Romania would not let them.
If we take what they promised in their treaties as fact, we can entertain that counterfactual scenario. They also promised ongoing cooperation and support for Nazi Germany in three separate treaties afterwards, but you seemingly want to disregard those. And those treaties-- unlike the one with Czechoslovakia-- saw practical fulfilment.

The only way to rate Molotov-Ribbentrop as 'worse' or 'far beyond' is if you truly prefer that Nazi Germany takes all or nearly all of the territory or you just rate Poland as more important than Czechoslovakia
Or perhaps I rate an invasion, provision of war material, and practical support in territorial expansion lasting for three years to be somewhat more impactful than a buildup of troops on a border for a month.

((Side note, it's a bit amusing to see you acknowledge this as a threat, after you spent so long insisting everyone was being hysterical for viewing Putin's buildup of troops on Ukraine's border as a prelude to invasion-- there's really is no consistency to this imperialist hogwash))

The fact is, Nazi Germany took the land it took with the explicit endorsement and practical support of the USSR. Support that the USSR then reiterated twice more, and continued to provide long after Britain and France had gone to war against Germany.

The UK traded with Germany, including scrap metal, throughout the 1930s until they were formally at war. Trading with Germany in the interwar period is hardly unique or special to the Soviet Union no matter how damning you try to make it sound.
Not merely "in the interwar period": the USSR provided Nazi Germany with war material until 1941. When it was blockaded by Britain and others. They supported the Nazis against the allies in active wartime, and requested to join the Axis.

By your standard the USA is not allied with Israel.
 
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Seanchaidh

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Not merely "in the interwar period": the USSR provided Nazi Germany with war material until 1941. When it was blockaded by Britain and others. They supported the Nazis against the allies in active wartime, and requested to join the Axis.

By your standard the USA is not allied with Israel.
By your standard the United States was "allied with Nazi Germany" even after Operation Barbarossa as it only stopped trading with Nazi Germany after joining the war in December due to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor; it was by this standard part of the German/Finnish/Italian/Japanese axis which seemed to gain and lose members by the month. However, you are wrong about the comparison to the Zionist occupation in Palestine; raw resources are not weapons, nor are they diplomatic maneuvering to allow a state to operate with impunity. The Soviet Union did not strike the UK or France like the United States has struck Ansarallah and it did not use its influence to prevent the UK and France from declaring war against Germany or prosecuting its leadership for war crimes. You did not have to display your spectacularly shallow understanding of what the United States is doing to enable israel's genocide in Palestine but for some reason you decided to do so.

As for attempting to join the Axis, they never actually did; they negotiated. Just like Germany negotiated. Hitler always intended to attack the Soviet Union, so the negotiations were perfidious from that side; Stalin claims that he did not intend to follow through on joining the Axis either but merely to gather information about their intentions. Seems like a big pile of shrug.

"in active war time" is a distinction without a difference; Germany was gobbling up Austria, Czechoslovakia and so on while the UK and France and USA traded with it. But of course, for the UK history began on October 7, 2023 September 1, 1939. Rejecting Soviet overtures for an alliance with themselves and France against Hitler is prehistory, as is selling out Czechoslovakia over Soviet objection.
 

Silvanus

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By your standard the United States was "allied with Nazi Germany" even after Operation Barbarossa as it only stopped trading with Nazi Germany after joining the war in December due to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor; it was by this standard part of the German/Finnish/Italian/Japanese axis which seemed to gain and lose members by the month.
Several American companies did indeed collaborate with Nazi Germany, particularly General Motors & Ford producing military vehicles for the war effort. Once again: it is not controversial to say these companies collaborated with the Nazis, and I'm unsure why you would think American-Nazi collaboration somehow exonerates Soviet-Nazi collaboration.

Yet there's a significant difference between businesses doing so, and governments. And then there's scale: the USSR alone outweighed all other international trading partners for the Nazis. They could not have conquered what they did from 39 to 41 without the enthusiastic and practical support of the USSR.

However, you are wrong about the comparison to the Zionist occupation in Palestine; raw resources are not weapons, nor are they diplomatic maneuvering to allow a state to operate with impunity. The Soviet Union did not strike the UK or France like the United States has struck Ansarallah and it did not use its influence to prevent the UK and France from declaring war against Germany or prosecuting its leadership for war crimes. You did not have to display your spectacularly shallow understanding of what the United States is doing to enable israel's genocide in Palestine but for some reason you decided to do so.
Drawing up numerous treaties to recognise and permit Nazi seizure of other countries is textbook diplomatic maneuvering to allow them to operate with impunity. And the Soviet Union did strike Nazi Germany's enemies: in Poland, in direct coordination with the Nazis. They then handed local communists to the Gestapo, again helping to liquidate anyone who may stand opposed. On the contrary, I recognise what the United States is doing to facilitate Israel, but you lack the historical knowledge (or willingness) to recognise Nazi collaboration whenever it involves someone wearing red.

As for attempting to join the Axis, they never actually did; they negotiated.
😂 The absolute hypocrisy to say this, just after you want us to credit the USSR for offering to help Czechoslovakia, even though they never actually did! Poland and Hungary stopped them helping Czechoslovakia, OK then-- and Nazi Germany stopped them joining the Axis as they requested. "Together with the Germans we would have been unstoppable" -- Joseph Stalin, as reported by his daughter.

You want us to entertain counterfactuals based on their promises and negotiating positions when it suits you, but you abandon them the moment they're inconvenient.
 

Gergar12

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or it’s not about communists and liberals but the Russian state being a consistent existential danger, consistently barbaric and war mongering, and that there is no moral low, not even allying with the Nazi’s that Russia is unwilling to stoop to in order to satisfy their land hunger and bloodthirst

its simply beyond any doubt that Russia colluded with the Nazi’s to start the war, and that after the war they kept all their neighbors occupied and brutalized for decades.
So did Turkey/the Ottomans and they are in NATO, and possibly in the EU in the future.
 

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articles still in process of writing?
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link to site clip, cos this site no cooperatums



wait wait wait no wuzzas found article


'Russian bombers are burning en masse' — Ukraine's SBU drones hit 'more than 40' aircraft in mass attack, source says

by Chris YorkJune 1, 2025 1:52 PM
(Updated: June 1, 2025 9:56 PM)5 min read


A screenshot from a video of the alleged attack released by the SBU on June 1, 2025 (Ukraine's Security Service)


An operation by Ukraine's Security Service (SBU) using first-person-view (FPV) drones smuggled deep inside Russian and hidden inside trucks has hit 41 Russian heavy bombers at four airfields across the country, a source in the agency told the Kyiv Independent on June 1.

The operation — codenamed "Spider web" and a year-and-a-half in the planning — appears to have dealt a major blow to the aircraft Moscow uses to launch long-range missile attacks on Ukraine's cities.

"The SBU first transported FPV drones to Russia, and later, on the territory of the Russian Federation, the drones were hidden under the roofs of mobile wooden cabins, already placed on trucks," the source said.

"At the right moment, the roofs of the cabins were opened remotely, and the drones flew to hit Russian bombers."


A picture purporting to show the drones used in the attack placed in the roofs of "mobile wooden cabins" which were then being transported by truck when they were launched (Ukraine's Security Service)

The source said one of the airfields hit was the Belaya air base in Russia's Irkutsk Oblast, more than 4,000 kilometers from Ukraine.

Olenya air base in Russia's Murmansk Oblast, the Diaghilev airbase in Ryazan Oblast, Ivanovo airbase in Ivanovo Oblast were also targeted.

"Currently, more than 40 aircraft are known to have been hit, including the A-50, Tu-95 and Tu-22 M3," the source added.
The SBU later reported that the drone operation caused approximately $7 billion in damages and disabled 34% of cruise missile carriers in key Russian airbases.

The agency said that more details will be revealed soon. Also, they vowed to continue to drive Russian forces out of Ukrainian territory.

“We will strike them (Russia) at sea, in the air, and on the ground. And if needed, we’ll get them from underground too,” the SBU said.

A video provided by the source shows what appears to be a row of heavy bomber aircraft on fire at one of the airbases.


(Video file in article, do not try pressing play on the picture or you will look like a silly tittie biscuit)
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Unconfirmed videos posted on social media show FPV drones being launched from trucks parked near the airfields.

Irkutsk Oblast Governor Igor Kobzev later confirmed "a drone attack on a military unit in the village of Sredny" and said the "source" of the drones was a "truck."

Murmansk Governor Andrey Chibis later confirmed that "enemy drones have attacked the territory of the Murmansk region" but gave no further details.

Later on June 1, Russia's Defense Ministry acknowledged what it described as a "terrorist attack" on the four air bases and said "several units of aircraft caught fire" at Murmansk and Irkutsk.



Ukraine has long-struggled to target the Russian bombers used to launch mass missile targets against Ukrainian cities, as Moscow has kept them out of range of weapons Kyiv has developed itself as well as those supplied by its Western allies.

The use of FPV drones in such a way would mark just the latest stage in the ever-evolving and still relatively fledgling world on drone warfare.

The attack was also likely highly cost effective — FPV drones can be bought for a just a few hundred dollars each but the cost of 41 heavy bombers runs into the billions.

The source said that those behind the operation have "been in Ukraine for a long time."

"So, if the Putin regime demonstratively detains someone, it will be another staged performance for the domestic audience," they said.

President Volodymyr Zelensky and SBU Chief Vasyl Malyuk personally oversaw the operation, they added.

In March, Ukraine announced it had developed a new drone with a range of 3,000 kilometers but gave no details about its type, its name, the size of its warhead, or when it would go into mass production.


A map of potential targets for Ukraine's new 3,000km drone. (Nizar al-Rifai/The Kyiv Independent)

The Russian aircraft allegedly hit

The A-50 provides several critical functions for the ongoing war in Ukraine, such as detecting air defense systems, guided missiles, and coordinating targets for Russian fighter jets.

Russia possesses fewer than ten of these planes. A-50 aircraft have an estimated price tag of around $350 million.

The Tupolev Tu-95, the Tupolev Tu-22, as well as the Tupolev Tu-160, are all Russian heavy bombers regularly used to launch missiles at Ukrainian cities.

The Tu-95 is the oldest of the three aircraft, a Soviet-era plane that made its first flight in 1952. It was originally used to carry nuclear bombs but has since evolved to launch cruise missiles.

Each aircraft can carry 16 cruise missiles – either the Kh-55/Kh-555 or the newer Kh-101 and Kh-102 air-launched cruise missiles.


A picture of SBU Chief Vasyl Malyuk planning operation "Web," date and location not disclosed (Ukraine's Security Service)

It features turboprop engines rather than jet engines, as during the Cold War, their increased efficiency allowed it to fly all the way to the United States without refueling.

The Tu-22 carries the Kh-22 missiles, which pose a particular problem for Ukraine. It is supersonic and travels at around 4,000 kilometers per hour.

Currently, it can only be shot down with the U.S.-made Patriot air defense system and potentially the SAMP-T, a joint Italian-French system.

The Tu-160 is Russia's more modern strategic bomber, entering service in 1987. To this day, it remains the largest operational bomber in the world.

It can carry a total of 12 Kh-55 missiles and up to 24 Kh-15s.
 
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Agema

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So did Turkey/the Ottomans and they are in NATO, and possibly in the EU in the future.
How distant future? Turkey is a painfully long way from EU accession.

Back in the EU's rosier days in the early 2000s the possibility of Turkish accession was on the horizon. However, by the mid-2010s it was pretty clear there was massive resistance to the idea of Turkish accession from major EU members, and clear it was not going to happen soon. The prospect of Turkey joining has only got further away since - partly because Turkey is diverging from the EU and partly because the EU is already struggling with internal unity even without trying absorb a country that large and different.
 

Chimpzy

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Why does the Ukrainian President have to tell the US President what he’s doing in relation to the war he is fighting against an invader when as far as I’m aware the US is not supplying any formal assistance with beyond grey market materiel?
The answer is in who posted that tweet.
 

Thaluikhain

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Additionally, if Ukraine and the US were indeed co-belligerents as the tweet says, they'd both have to be at war with Russia (or hypothetically someone else).
 

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Flynn has been priding himself as the self-appointed qanon cult general, he was the one calling all the online cultists "digital soldiers" and uploaded videos of his whole family taking the qanon oath which he tried (and failed) suing news organisations for reporting on him being a believer/pusher of the conspiracy, cos of course when you spend the last half decade publicly egging on the cult you can't just turn around and pretend none of it happened, especially when it's all accessible on public record while he hasn't changed his behaviour one bit
 

Hades

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Flynn has been priding himself as the self-appointed qanon cult general, he was the one calling all the online cultists "digital soldiers" and uploaded videos of his whole family taking the qanon oath which he tried (and failed) suing news organisations for reporting on him being a believer/pusher of the conspiracy, cos of course when you spend the last half decade publicly egging on the cult you can't just turn around and pretend none of it happened, especially when it's all accessible on public record while he hasn't changed his behaviour one bit
He seems to have mostly vanished from the limelight. I know he got trotted out during the coup attempt to showcase just how unfit he was to oversee America's security, but after the coup failed I don't recall Republicans and Trump having done much with his...ahem...''talents''
 

Seanchaidh

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Drawing up numerous treaties to recognise and permit Nazi seizure of other countries is textbook diplomatic maneuvering to allow them to operate with impunity.
Except that they negotiated a non-aggression pact that specifically disallowed Germany from taking certain regions. You don't understand how treaties and diplomacy work and it's OK to acknowledge that and learn.
 
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Why does the Ukrainian President have to tell the US President what he’s doing in relation to the war he is fighting against an invader when as far as I’m aware the US is not supplying any formal assistance with beyond grey market materiel?
Ehhh, a twelve figure sum of ear marked foreign aid (eleven of which has been dispersed) kinda stretches the definition of “grey market”.

 

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Seanchaidh

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😂 The absolute hypocrisy to say this
The Soviet Union didn't agree to join the Axis but they did offer a million Soviet troops to take on Germany alongside the UK and France. That offer was on the table and the UK and France did not respond to it.


Of course, the Phoney War period makes it pretty clear that such an agreement would have had the likely result of the Soviet Union taking on Germany essentially alone. Which isn't all that different from how history ended up playing out!
 

Agema

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Why does the Ukrainian President have to tell the US President what he’s doing in relation to the war he is fighting against an invader when as far as I’m aware the US is not supplying any formal assistance with beyond grey market materiel?
Mike Flynn is a conspiracy theorist and Russian sympathiser.

That's the whole reason he got tied up in a FBI mess at the start of Trump's first term: he had got cozy with the Russians before then. As his subsequent antics illustrate, he is irrational if not unhinged, and should never have been put in high office in the first place.