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Generals

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Thirdly, communism is one extreme form of socialism. Socialism can also refer to democratic socialism or market socialism, like that in Scandinavia, which is decidedly not under dictatorial rule.
I do wonder why people consider Scandinavia socialist... Or to be more precise why Scandinavia specifically? What makes it so different from France, Belgium, Italy, Spain,...? All I see are Social Liberal (Capitalistic) countries with different degrees of taxation, social welfare, etc. But they are all very similar and have pretty much the same core guiding principles. I mean France has the highest Taxes to GDP ratio of all OECD countries, it has universal healthcare, accessible higher education and many more left wing social liberal characteristics, so why Scandinavia? Am I missing something?

PS: Social Democracy (Democratic Socialism?) sounds like left wing social liberalism and something a lot of socialists would consider fake socialism as it still accepts Capitalism...
 

tstorm823

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As I've said before when this came up, you're using a tremendously peculiar definition that isn't widely accepted or acknowledged. I don't see any reason for me to pay it any credence. I'll go with the accepted definitions.
You should be questioning what is widely accepted or acknowledged. Why can't something be right-wing and socialist? "Because the definitions say right-wing is against socialism" isn't a good answer, and dilutes any unique meaning of left and right wing as political descriptions.Left-wing doesn't mean socialism. Right-wing doesn't mean capitalism.
 

Agema

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There is no greater problem with socialism than the continued denial that dictators taking control of their movement is a feature rather than an aberration when it keeps happening over and over and over again and lead to Nazi Germany...
Nazi Germany was not socialist.

The Nazi Party grew out of a minor worker's party. It changed its name to "Nationalist Socialist..." really more as a marketing trick to try to win voters from the established KPD (communists) and SPD (democratic socialists). However, broadly, the left remained loyal to the KPD and SPD. The Nazi Party grew throughout the 1920s with vigorous appeals to nationalism, not socialism. It's breakthrough eventually came with the 1930 crash, when the centre-right parties collapsed and conservatives and industrialists flocked to its banner instead, because they were opposed to the actual socialists in the SPD. And then, obviously, they took power.

Neverthless, the Nazi party retained a chunk of socialists from its early days when it took power in 1933. Hitler then had the remaining leading socialists (e.g. Rohm, Strasser) murdered in the Night Of The Long Knives in 1934. I think this neatly illustrates the Nazis' commitment to socialism.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Firstly, to get the obvious out of the way, Nazi Germany was not socialist, and did not grow out of a socialist movement. It's pretty much universally identified by political theorists and historians as a movement on the extreme right (along with the other European Fascist movements in Italy and Spain).

Secondly, you've also flagged two state communist nations (the USSR & China). State communism does indeed have a very poor track record in terms of resorting to authoritarian dictatorship. But frankly, that's also true of capitalist movements during the period of the 20s-60s, when most communist countries came into being. The vast majority of authoritarian dictatorships around then and today are capitalist in some form.

Thirdly, communism is one extreme form of socialism. Socialism can also refer to democratic socialism or market socialism, like that in Scandinavia, which is decidedly not under dictatorial rule.
First
Who was the Nazi party initially formed in response to? What similar trend are we seeing in America right now? Socialists introduce a game and once the rules of that game are accepted by the opposite party you get a war, in Germany the difference between it and the USSR and China was the socialists lost their own game.

Second
Irrelevant. I only care about capitalism in so much as it's better than the other systems offered. Further, capitalist systems have not been shown to inevitably lead to dictatorships like socialism has.

Third
Point me to a system that's tried any other form of group ownership that hasn't fallen apart and no the Scandinavian countries aren't socialist.
 
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tstorm823

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Nazi Germany was not socialist.

The Nazi Party grew out of a minor worker's party. It changed its name to "Nationalist Socialist..." really more as a marketing trick to try to win voters from the established KPD (communists) and SPD (democratic socialists). However, broadly, the left remained loyal to the KPD and SPD. The Nazi Party grew throughout the 1920s with vigorous appeals to nationalism, not socialism. It's breakthrough eventually came with the 1930 crash, when the centre-right parties collapsed and conservatives and industrialists flocked to its banner instead, because they were opposed to the actual socialists in the SPD. And then, obviously, they took power.

Neverthless, the Nazi party retained a chunk of socialists from its early days when it took power in 1933. Hitler then had the remaining leading socialists (e.g. Rohm, Strasser) murdered in the Night Of The Long Knives in 1934. I think this neatly illustrates the Nazis' commitment to socialism.
Nazi Germany was absolutely socialist. It had state control of the means of production, which is a form of social ownership.
 

Silvanus

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First
Who was the Nazi party initially formed in response to? What similar trend are we seeing in America right now? Socialists introduce a game and once the rules of that game are accepted by the opposite party you get a war, in Germany the difference between it and the USSR and China was the socialists lost their own game.
What do you mean, "who was it formed in response to"? It was formed in part in response to the First World War and opposition to armistice, though it also grew from existing nationalist, militarist, and racist sentiments.

I don't really know what you're talking about with a "game". The Nazi party was formed by avowed nationalists, and was violently hostile to workers' parties such as the SPD & KPD from the outset.


Second
Irrelevant. I only care about capitalism in so much as it's better than the other systems offered. Further, capitalist systems have not been shown to inevitably lead to dictatorships like socialism has.
Once again: you've shown examples of one extreme form of socialism leading to dictatorship. Non-dictatorial democratic socialist countries exist around the world.

Third
Point me to a system that's tried any other form of group ownership that hasn't fallen apart and no the Scandinavian countries aren't socialist.
How can I accomplish this, if you're just going to dismiss whatever examples I provide without explanation?

You should be questioning what is widely accepted or acknowledged. Why can't something be right-wing and socialist? "Because the definitions say right-wing is against socialism" isn't a good answer, and dilutes any unique meaning of left and right wing as political descriptions.Left-wing doesn't mean socialism. Right-wing doesn't mean capitalism.
I'm not really interested in redefining a political term that's already widely used and understood. I don't see the problem with the existing definition as understood by political theorists and historians already, and it seems to me that you only really want to redefine these terms so you can say the Nazis are left-wing.

I do wonder why people consider Scandinavia socialist... Or to be more precise why Scandinavia specifically? What makes it so different from France, Belgium, Italy, Spain,...? All I see are Social Liberal (Capitalistic) countries with different degrees of taxation, social welfare, etc. But they are all very similar and have pretty much the same core guiding principles. I mean France has the highest Taxes to GDP ratio of all OECD countries, it has universal healthcare, accessible higher education and many more left wing social liberal characteristics, so why Scandinavia? Am I missing something?

PS: Social Democracy (Democratic Socialism?) sounds like left wing social liberalism and something a lot of socialists would consider fake socialism as it still accepts Capitalism...
Socialism is not entirely incompatible with capitalism. Countries such as France and Norway have some areas under communal/public ownership (which is a hallmark of socialism) and other areas under private ownership (as expected in a capitalist country). They are not purely one thing or the other.

You're right to point out that loads of Western European countries have elements of communal ownership (such as nationalised industries or utilities). The difference is a matter of scale: the large welfare state, wide unionisation, free higher education & medicine, and exceptionally high level of public-sector employment set Scandinavian countries apart to an extent. It goes beyond what is usually understood when we talk about the mixed market capitalism of Western Europe.
 

Agema

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Nazi Germany was absolutely socialist. It had state control of the means of production, which is a form of social ownership.
Super. In that case, you can tell us all about what socialism is like, because you've been living through it this year since Trump invoked the Defence Production Act.

Do you still want to pursue this line?
 

tstorm823

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Super. In that case, you can tell us all about what socialism is like, because you've been living through it this year since Trump invoked the Defence Production Act.

Do you still want to pursue this line?
Yes I do. I'm not afraid of socialism. America is a mixed economy with or without the Defense Production Act. That's not a boogeyman.
It absolutely had not. The Nazi's ran some state production (Volkswagen and Junkers being the most notable) but the defining feature of Nazi economy was the close collaboration with private companies. The Nazi's were a major buyer, as a large part of their GDP went into the military, but the vast majority of German industry was privately owned. The Nazis set up collaborative organizations were the state and private companies could collaborate to ensure private production matched the need of the state. The Nazi's also sold off large amounts of state ownership in private companies, which runs directly counter to owning or controlling the means of production. What they did in many cases was to sell state ownership either straight to the Nazi party or to organizations or companies loyal to the Nazis. This was not to ensure worker ownership, but to ensure that the means of production would be in the hands of the Nazis and those loyal to them. That is to say, the direct opposite of what socialism says about the means of production.
The Nazis "sold off" state ownership to private companies... and then told those companies what to do anyway... and made it illegal for them not to benefit the Nazi party. It was a command economy, with production dedicated to the German war machine. Let's not pretend private business had any power in Nazi Germany.
 

SupahEwok

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Point me to a system that's tried any other form of group ownership that hasn't fallen apart and no the Scandinavian countries aren't socialist.
Many hunter-gatherer societies practiced communal ownership for thousands of years just fine.
 

Revnak

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Many hunter-gatherer societies practiced communal ownership for thousands of years just fine.
He also did define his terms broadly enough to include Emiliano Zapata and the modern Zapatistas, as well as many other indigenous communities in Central and South America. Cuba probably passes on this, though I’ve a host of obvious criticisms of Cuba. Probably various African movements, Rojava certainly. Also, while the Socialists in South Africa haven’t really been able to collectivize property, they did beat Apartheid.
 

SupahEwok

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He also did define his terms broadly enough to include Emiliano Zapata and the modern Zapatistas, as well as many other indigenous communities in Central and South America. Cuba probably passes on this, though I’ve a host of obvious criticisms of Cuba. Probably various African movements, Rojava certainly. Also, while the Socialists in South Africa haven’t really been able to collectivize property, they did beat Apartheid.
I'm not as informed as I would like to be on modern history. I've kind of set my studies to start from the beginning, which means I'm reading more about Ancient Egypt and anthropology than about Sankara. Still, taking a long view has shown me that both the essence of humanity hasn't changed and is highly unlikely to ever change, and that even so, the essence of humanity is incredibly malleable. Reading about the true culture of non-agricultural societies is quite eye-opening after being raised on thousands of years of propoganda casting them as ignorant barbarians. Not to say that it's all peachy living in the stone age and eating your neighboring tribes in times of hardship, but learning about the social dynamics of tribes and how they differ from our own is quite enlightening. One could say that leftist anarchist communes are attempts at returning to such a social dynamic within an agricultural societal context.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Nazi Germany was absolutely socialist. It had state control of the means of production, which is a form of social ownership.
If you want to go with that definition then the US in ww2 was also socialist, since the fed took over a lot of production here in the states for war materials.
 

tstorm823

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If you want to go with that definition then the US in ww2 was also socialist, since the fed took over a lot of production here in the states for war materials.
And? Am I meant not to think that? Mixed economy, people. Aspects of socialism. Suggesting the US also has done similar things doesn't make the things not socialist.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
And? Am I meant not to think that? Mixed economy, people. Aspects of socialism. Suggesting the US also has done similar things doesn't make the things not socialist.
If you acknowledge that then its even less a point to say that nazi germany was socialist since it means you realize that to some extent everyone is.
 

Trunkage

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If your definition of capitalism is such that it hasn't ever even existed, it's a very silly one. The word itself was coined to describe existing and ubiquitous phenomena.
I contend that Capitalism, or maybe the economist, pretend they understand how the economy works and fail everytime. The concept of Capitalism is utopian. And only vaguely had real world basis

Look at the variety of smart people who edit Capitalism to try and make it fit the world: Coase, Keynes, Schumpeter, Mises, Stieglitz, Friedman etc. It's like Adam Smith put on a piece of gladwrap onto top of food (the economy). It did fit at all, so all these other people pulled the glad wrap to cover their area without considering that they ripped it elsewhere. For example, Keynes General Theory doesnt mix well with the Chicago School at all, which can be seen in 2008 and the 1980s respectively. Or to Coase Externalities. And I personally think all these people do a terrible job at explaining how our economy works