Suspending the Election

Recommended Videos

SupahEwok

Malapropic Homophone
Legacy
Jun 24, 2010
4,028
1,401
118
Country
Texas
Silvanus, what exactly do you view as defining socialism, perhaps your definition is also why you and Escaraxe have such a huge disagreement in the Bernie/Biden thread.
I would still like you to answer the request given here which runs in a similar vein to your question. I really do think it would cut to the heart of the issue.

It's kind of you to preface your post with a tl;dr.

When someone uses the phrase "state capitalism", you can guarantee they've gone fully "No True Scotsman" on socialism.
Disagree with somebody's experiences, call them a liar. Somebody's argued you into a corner, bring out the ad hominems rather than further engage with the argument or admit you're licked.

For someone who says he doesn't actually like Trump but who plays a relentless game of apologism to protect him from the big bad media, you sure do love using his playbook.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,660
978
118
Country
USA
Disagree with somebody's experiences, call them a liar. Somebody's argued you into a corner, bring out the ad hominems rather than further engage with the argument or admit you're licked.
I've not been licked. Anyone who uses the phrase "state capitalism" has left behind any reasonable concept of capitalism and socialism. "State capitalism" is the term used by communists to imply that systems that lack their communist ideals aren't real socialism. Socialism is under no obligation to match communist ideals.
 

SupahEwok

Malapropic Homophone
Legacy
Jun 24, 2010
4,028
1,401
118
Country
Texas
Ewoks seem more like anarchists to me.
Closer to the truth than you might think. I think that AI could be used to create a society made up of anarchist communes, with the AI bridging the gap between communes. The whole problem with anarchism (the leftist political theory, not the memetic post-apoc wasteland) in an industrial societal context is distributing resources and finished goods across society when society is made up of 100ish person units who all vote about their part of the supply chain. AI driven calculations and decision making would, or at least has the potential, I think, to bridge that gap, eliminating power structures and bringing us back to a community based society.

I don't think things will go that way, though. AI is more likely to be (as in, it already is) used to automate our already ruinous consumerist appetites and make the human part of the service industry redundant without care for the social consequences. I simply think that Western society, particularly America, is too enamored of individual liberty to be able to make the pivot to communal values before we hit a breaking part, and other societies such as East Asia which have traditionally had more communal values are likewise too burdened at present with authoritarian regimes to make that same pivot.

I suppose one could call this stance techno-anarchism, and it would probably be my preferred political system, but I'm not educated enough on it to really go out on a limb and declare it my political leaning.

Oh, and cannibals. 0_0
 

SupahEwok

Malapropic Homophone
Legacy
Jun 24, 2010
4,028
1,401
118
Country
Texas
I've not been licked. Anyone who uses the phrase "state capitalism" has left behind any reasonable concept of capitalism and socialism. "State capitalism" is the term used by communists to imply that systems that lack their communist ideals aren't real socialism. Socialism is under no obligation to match communist ideals.
 

Specter Von Baren

Annoying Green Gadfly
Legacy
Aug 25, 2013
5,637
2,859
118
I don't know, send help!
Country
USA
Gender
Cuttlefish
Many hunter-gatherer societies practiced communal ownership for thousands of years just fine.
Indeed! Now let's analyze why that is, why does it work in HG societies? They are small groups of, at most, about 100 people. This means that everyone either knows each other or is only one social link removed from someone else. This makes for an intimate group of people that know the circumstances of one another and through mutual work have a bond.

They also have very similar circumstances, they all must work together to survive and so as long as someone is contributing to the survival of the group they are a valued asset of the community.

They also do not live a life of surplus. Working for the continued survival of all is a daily goal. It is not always a society that lives on a knifes edge but they still must always be working to better their situation.

They also do not have a single individual that can control their actions. One of them might be able to direct everyone to their own selfish ends or take all spoils for themselves but in the former if their decisions lead to suffering of all others the those others will depose them and in the latter they may have all the spoils but it will lead to the death of those they need to even have those spoils.

It comes together in a rather nice melding of necessity and camaraderie. The checks and balances of personal and group interests come together closely.

Now why does this not work in modern societies? I would argue that it is a problem of scale. Take the USA as an example; the life of someone in California is different from that of one in Missouri, the rural life is different from the urban, and on it goes. It is a gigantic group of different people who do not really know each other. They lack the emotional bond of knowing each other and the way they each make their livelihood and the history of their life is also very different. In order to have these giant groups of people function towards some common goal you need to find a way to bind them together, this can come through force or through finding some common sentiment among them all.

The binding of America is perhaps very unusual then in that the commonality used is our individualism, united in us all as individuals, or at least, that is what the intention is. The problem and risk is that our individuality, our own self interests, will infringe on each other, which is what our laws are supposed to prevent. The means of force is one we are not strangers to either, which is that of the conqueror, the forcing of unity. It is one group, one tribe, enforcing its rules and perhaps sentiments on another through force.

Forgive me for typing out a stream of consciousness here. I also feel like I'm close to finding the words that I think will articulate what it is that Tstorm is getting at so I'll make a post about that once lunch hits.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hawki

Avnger

Trash Goblin
Legacy
Apr 1, 2016
2,124
1,251
118
Country
United States
I've not been licked. Anyone who uses the phrase "state capitalism" has left behind any reasonable concept of capitalism and socialism. "State capitalism" is the term used by communists to imply that systems that lack their communist ideals aren't real socialism. Socialism is under no obligation to match communist ideals.
Ah yes, famous communists such as the Cato Institute founded by the Koch Brothers and the US Chamber of Commerce...

 

Agema

Overhead a rainbow appears... in black and white
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,917
7,080
118
It's kind of you to preface your post with a tl;dr.

When someone uses the phrase "state capitalism", you can guarantee they've gone fully "No True Scotsman" on socialism.
Aw, how cute. You don't have an argument to make, so instead you've gone for a snappy rejoinder to cover how naked your position is.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,660
978
118
Country
USA
Ah yes, famous communists such as the Cato Institute founded by the Koch Brothers and the US Chamber of Commerce...
So you're a fan of the CATO institute, eh? You're gonna go with "libertarian propaganda farms use the term!" as an argument?

Aw, how cute. You don't have an argument to make, so instead you've gone for a snappy rejoinder to cover how naked your position is.
There's not even really an argument going on here. Just none of you can keep terms straight.

Definition of socialism

1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

"State capitalism" is government ownership or administration of the means of production. That there isn't some egalitarian benefit doesn't change that. That's socialism. Full stop. Merriam Webster has a third definition listed:

3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

Nazi's weren't communists. They did not imagine socialism as a transition state to communism. They wanted state control of the means of production because they felt it would be best used by them. They weren't using socialism as a means to break down class structures, they were using it to deploy even more rigid class structures. Funny enough, so did all the communists of the 20th century, they just didn't have that as a plan the whole time.
 

Worgen

Follower of the Glorious Sun Butt.
Legacy
Apr 1, 2009
15,526
4,295
118
Gender
Whatever, just wash your hands.
Indeed! Now let's analyze why that is, why does it work in HG societies? They are small groups of, at most, about 100 people. This means that everyone either knows each other or is only one social link removed from someone else. This makes for an intimate group of people that know the circumstances of one another and through mutual work have a bond.

They also have very similar circumstances, they all must work together to survive and so as long as someone is contributing to the survival of the group they are a valued asset of the community.

They also do not live a life of surplus. Working for the continued survival of all is a daily goal. It is not always a society that lives on a knifes edge but they still must always be working to better their situation.

They also do not have a single individual that can control their actions. One of them might be able to direct everyone to their own selfish ends or take all spoils for themselves but in the former if their decisions lead to suffering of all others the those others will depose them and in the latter they may have all the spoils but it will lead to the death of those they need to even have those spoils.

It comes together in a rather nice melding of necessity and camaraderie. The checks and balances of personal and group interests come together closely.
Not to mention that HG societies tend to be more nomadic which leads to much looser definitions of property since they don't really have territory to defend like an agricultural society would.
 

Agema

Overhead a rainbow appears... in black and white
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,917
7,080
118
There's not even really an argument going on here. Just none of you can keep terms straight.

Definition of socialism

1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

"State capitalism" is government ownership or administration of the means of production. That there isn't some egalitarian benefit doesn't change that. That's socialism. Full stop. Merriam Webster has a third definition listed:

3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

Nazi's weren't communists. They did not imagine socialism as a transition state to communism. They wanted state control of the means of production because they felt it would be best used by them. They weren't using socialism as a means to break down class structures, they were using it to deploy even more rigid class structures. Funny enough, so did all the communists of the 20th century, they just didn't have that as a plan the whole time.
Virtually every time someone reaches for a dictionary definition, you know their argument is going badly.

But let's entertain it:

1.) The Nazi government did not own and administer the means of production and distribution. Therefore Nazi Germany does not meet this criteria for socialism.
2a) Private property existed in Nazi Germany. Therefore Nazi Germany does not meet this criteria for socialism.
2b) The Nazi government did not own and control the means of production in Germany. Therefore Nazi Germany does not meet this criteria of socialism.
3) Fascism was not a transitional stage to communism. Therefore Nazi Germany does not meet this criteria of socialism.

At best, you can argue for 1) and 2b) that the Nazis exercised some control over the means of production (as Western liberal democracies also do), but this falls short of the stated definition of socialism.

So under your own chosen definition of socialism, you have proven Nazi Germany was not socialist. Thank you and goodnight, you may leave the stage.
 

Avnger

Trash Goblin
Legacy
Apr 1, 2016
2,124
1,251
118
Country
United States
So you're a fan of the CATO institute, eh? You're gonna go with "libertarian propaganda farms use the term!" as an argument?
I'm not the one who just claimed both they and the US CoC have "left behind any reasonable concept of capitalism and socialism," are "communists," and that they "imply systems that lack their communist ideals aren't real socialism." ;)

Feel free to just keep digging this hole though.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,660
978
118
Country
USA
2b) The Nazi government did not own and control the means of production in Germany. Therefore Nazi Germany does not meet this criteria of socialism.
Did the Nazis control the means of production in Nazi Germany? Yes. Yes they did. 100%. Not an argument against. Anyone who disobeyed got disappeared. Why are you disagreeing with that?

I'm not the one who just claimed both they and the US CoC have "left behind any reasonable concept of capitalism and socialism," are "communists," and that they "imply systems that lack their communist ideals aren't real socialism." ;)

Feel free to just keep digging this hole though.
Well, if you're all going to sit around arguing that Nazis weren't as totalitarian as I'm saying, I'll let you all keep at it. It's sort of like a month or two ago when people insisted on arguing that slavery makes the world better. Don't let me stop you.
 

Agema

Overhead a rainbow appears... in black and white
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,917
7,080
118
Did the Nazis control the means of production in Nazi Germany? Yes. Yes they did. 100%. Not an argument against. Anyone who disobeyed got disappeared. Why are you disagreeing with that?
The Nazis didn't control the means of production, though. Most of the German economy - at least, until war needs took over - didn't need to obey the orders of the Nazi regime in an economic sense, because they weren't given any orders (well, beyond the usual sorts of business regulations, obviously). Shopkeepers ran their shops as they saw fit. Farmers ran their farms as they saw fit. Screw manufacturers ran their screw manufacturing as they saw fit. Clothes manufacturers made their own designs, and so on.

When Hitler wanted a tank, he didn't force anyone to build it. He asked for designs, any manufacturer interested sent in a design, and the one most liked got picked. They applied and then built them because the state was going to pay them and make them profits. It's not really any different from how our countries procure arms today.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,660
978
118
Country
USA
The Nazis didn't control the means of production, though. Most of the German economy - at least, until war needs took over - didn't need to obey the orders of the Nazi regime in an economic sense, because they weren't given any orders (well, beyond the usual sorts of business regulations, obviously). Shopkeepers ran their shops as they saw fit. Farmers ran their farms as they saw fit. Screw manufacturers ran their screw manufacturing as they saw fit. Clothes manufacturers made their own designs, and so on.

When Hitler wanted a tank, he didn't force anyone to build it. He asked for designs, any manufacturer interested sent in a design, and the one most liked got picked. They applied and then built them because the state was going to pay them and make them profits. It's not really any different from how our countries procure arms today.
Except you're not saying true things.
The Cartel Act was amended on July 15, 1933, and supplemented at the same time by an Act for the Formation of Compulsory Cartels which placed existing cartels under the virtually complete control of the minister of economics, and also gave him power to force unorganized businesses into existing or new cartels. The Act stated expressly that it was not to be used as the basis for a planned economy, and it was intimated that it would be invoked as rarely as possible; but it was soon being used not only as a measure of control but also to cartelize many hitherto unorganized industries including cigarette, paper, radio equipment, electric bulbs, and steel wire makers. All organizations of entrepreneurs which were not brought under central control either dissolved voluntarily or were dissolved by the state.

So, 4 months after Hitler got dictatorial powers, all industry was brought under the control of the Nazis, and those who didn't play along were dissolved by the state. And by the end of that year, 2/3 of the German economy was dedicated to the military buildup. And then the nazis started supplanting existing industry with slave labor.

Man, what free markets the Nazis had!
 

Agema

Overhead a rainbow appears... in black and white
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,917
7,080
118
Did the Nazis control the means of production in Nazi Germany? Yes. Yes they did. 100%. Not an argument against. Anyone who disobeyed got disappeared. Why are you disagreeing with that?
Let me also contrast with the USSR.

The USSR had a number of tank design facilities. The government owned and ran all of them. Their job was to design tanks, and they designed tanks because that was their job, day in day out. They couldn't go off and decide to design tractors, or motorbikes, or small arms like Ferdinand Porsche could if he wanted. They designed tanks unless the government told them to stop and do something else. If they didn't get a tank design ready on time, because the government was their direct boss, the leader of the facility could get fired - which in Stalin terms could mean with a bullet. (If I remember rightly, the lead designer of the famous T-34 got to that post by his predecessor being summoned to Moscow and, shall we say, delayed from returning permanently). If Ferdinand Porsche didn't feel like building a tank, he merely didn't have to submit to that procurement round and carried on running and earning from his huge company, and some other company - Man, Krupp whatever would get the gig instead.

If someone wants to design tanks who doesn't already, they need to ask the government, because nobody does anything without asking the government. There aren't shareholders, and independent financing: you have the backing of the government and can design tanks, or you don't have the backing of the government and you don't design tanks. Entryism is at the whim of the government. Shutting down tank design units is at the whim of the government.

That's what state control and ownership really looks like.
 

Buyetyen

Elite Member
May 11, 2020
3,129
2,362
118
Country
USA
I get not wanting to talk about the bad things done in the name of one's ideology in the past, but the whole, "Um, actually the Nazis were leftists..." canard is such a sad performance of moral cowardice, partisan hackery and overall insecurity.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Satinavian

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,660
978
118
Country
USA
I get not wanting to talk about the bad things done in the name of one's ideology in the past, but the whole, "Um, actually the Nazis were leftists..." canard is such a sad performance of moral cowardice, partisan hackery and overall insecurity.
If anyone had said Nazi's were leftists here, this comment might be justified. Nazis were decidedly right-wing: they valued order, hierarchy, and national power. They were just also socialist, the hierarchy they pushed was not one of wealth classes.
 

Trunkage

Nascent Orca
Legacy
Jun 21, 2012
9,370
3,163
118
Brisbane
Gender
Cyborg
Adam Smith drew some very general principles for what capitalism was and how it worked, but in terms of detail and manipulating policy to achieve ends, there was very little. That's what a lot of later economists were working on. After that, Keynes made no worse a job of explaining how the economy worked than a 1940s biologist would make an explanation of how the brain worked. Friedman made no worse a job of explaining how the economy worked than a 1970s biologist would make an explanation of how the brain works. And so on. Knowledge builds on knowledge. Theories replace theories, and everything is amended and argued over as it advances. No-one should be expecting Keynes or Friedman to provide best answers: they're decades out of date.
They problem is: that's exactly how a lot of us expect Communism to happen. To be utterly perfect on the first try
 

Agema

Overhead a rainbow appears... in black and white
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,917
7,080
118
If anyone had said Nazi's were leftists here, this comment might be justified. Nazis were decidedly right-wing: they valued order, hierarchy, and national power. They were just also socialist, the hierarchy they pushed was not one of wealth classes.
It beggars belief you can yourself put in a definition of socialism that the Nazis don't meet, and then carry on claiming they were socialist.

* * *

Of course, a lot of the problem is trying to reduce something as complex as an entire ideology to a sentence, at which point you're annihilating more meaning than you're explaining. Hence, in an ideal world, people would bother to do something even as simple as read a decent primer, such as:


But this isn't an ideal world, and people would rather talk utter shit instead.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Buyetyen