This just happened. Explosion in Lebanon

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Trunkage

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Just some notes. It was during war time but not an official incident of war. But.....

Strangely enough a German ambassador‘s guest named von Papen (Yes, THAT von Papen) was removed from the country shortly after and there has been claims that it was deliberately lit. (Von Papen had paid for weapons to reach Easter Rising Irish and Ghadar Indians. And blow up a canal.)

Also, nuclear blasts were originally counted in how many times bigger they were than Halifax, it was that big.)
 

Eacaraxe

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Nobodies pointed out that grain silos can be explosive too when dry grain powder is floating in the air it ignites fast with a lot of energy.
Yeah, if I remember the maths right certain grain dusts can have potential energy on par with some of the most powerful high explosives and rocket fuels with the right fuel/air mixture. The big difference being grain dusts are low explosive, not high explosive.
 

Kwak

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This picture of a man picking glass off the carpet of a mosque somehow represents the enormity of the cleanup more than the photos of destroyed buildings.
 

Agema

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Yeah, if I remember the maths right certain grain dusts can have potential energy on par with some of the most powerful high explosives and rocket fuels with the right fuel/air mixture. The big difference being grain dusts are low explosive, not high explosive.
Yep. Simple flour is actually very dangerous: back a few centuries, you'd have flames nowhere near a flour mill. It's not that much of a problem in a large pile on the ground, but as a fine dust in the atmosphere...
 

Thaluikhain

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Yeah, that's EXACTLY the incident I was referencing. When I heard Overly Sarcastic Productions talking about that, I had to double check if that actually happenned. Because it boggles the mind how anyone would think that was a good idea.
Well, the entire plot was terribly handled, but yeah, that's going for farce.

Yeah, if I remember the maths right certain grain dusts can have potential energy on par with some of the most powerful high explosives and rocket fuels with the right fuel/air mixture. The big difference being grain dusts are low explosive, not high explosive.
Coal dust, likewise.
 

tstorm823

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Oh right! Now I remember reading about that in a book of navel disasters before. It's things like that and this latest disaster that make me shake my head at the future of nuclear power. Even if it's "the only way forward" it's far from being "clean" energy and the more plants that get built, the more likely it is for a mistake to happen with terribly long lasting consequences. Completely non-malicious mistakes can lead to some of the worst tragedies.
Ok, but nuclear plants can't blow up like this. The fuel wouldn't blow up in an accidental fire nearby, and the waste wouldn't blow up at all. It admittedly has its own risks, but bearing in mind that people are still likely to die from secondary effects of this explosion (toxic gases, destroyed homes, overwhelmed hospitals, the list goes on), this explosion in Beirut is more devastating than any nuclear accident in history and most of those nuclear accidents combined.
 

Fieldy409

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Yeah, if I remember the maths right certain grain dusts can have potential energy on par with some of the most powerful high explosives and rocket fuels with the right fuel/air mixture. The big difference being grain dusts are low explosive, not high explosive.
I just learned. I didn't know what low explosives or high explosives meant so I googled it and I still don't entirely get it but something about 'subsonic' verus 'supersonic'.
 

Silvanus

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this explosion in Beirut is more devastating than any nuclear accident in history and most of those nuclear accidents combined.
Well, in terms of immediate deaths attributable to the explosion itself. Chernobyl is likely to have had a much greater toll from lasting radiation and the higher mortality it has led to.

Granted, that's not easy to quantify, especially given the secrecy of the Soviet government.
 

MrCalavera

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Ah, gotcha. Yes, I'm pretty sure there have been larger ones. Mostly accidental explosions of ammo dumps or fuel depots/facilities. Some deliberate: I think the British tried to blow up an island after WW2 with a few thousand tons of explosives.
Yes, it was the german isle of Helgoland, that was partially blown up.
At the time biggest, non-nuclear detonation.
Nobodies pointed out that grain silos can be explosive too when dry grain powder is floating in the air it ignites fast with a lot of energy.
They can. I think at one point it even happened to the world's largest grain elevator in Kansas.
 

tstorm823

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Well, in terms of immediate deaths attributable to the explosion itself. Chernobyl is likely to have had a much greater toll from lasting radiation and the higher mortality it has led to.

Granted, that's not easy to quantify, especially given the secrecy of the Soviet government.
It's also not going to be easy to quantify the deaths caused by displacing half of Beirut and filling the city with toxic gases. I think it's a pretty fair comparison.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Ok, but nuclear plants can't blow up like this. The fuel wouldn't blow up in an accidental fire nearby, and the waste wouldn't blow up at all. It admittedly has its own risks, but bearing in mind that people are still likely to die from secondary effects of this explosion (toxic gases, destroyed homes, overwhelmed hospitals, the list goes on), this explosion in Beirut is more devastating than any nuclear accident in history and most of those nuclear accidents combined.
Oh I know. I was talking about man made disasters in general.
 

Eacaraxe

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Ok, but nuclear plants can't blow up like this.
Chernobyl did blow up "like this". The difference between the explosion at Chernobyl and the one in Beirut, was the Chernobyl blast was partially contained by the reactor vessel which turned it into something like a quasi-nuclear claymore aimed straight up.

It's things like that and this latest disaster that make me shake my head at the future of nuclear power. Even if it's "the only way forward" it's far from being "clean" energy and the more plants that get built, the more likely it is for a mistake to happen with terribly long lasting consequences.
How old are these books you're reading, and who wrote them? Frankly, the anti-nuke and fossil fuels lobbies spend a whole lot of money, time, and effort to keep the public's understanding of nuclear power stuck in the 1940's and irrationally fearful, preventing widescale adoption of reactor designs even from the '50s that are tested, proven, and so safe the laws of thermodynamics would have to change for them to produce even a TMI-scale incident. Fast, breeder, and high-temperature reactor designs actually are that old.
 

Silvanus

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It's also not going to be easy to quantify the deaths caused by displacing half of Beirut and filling the city with toxic gases. I think it's a pretty fair comparison.
Well, that's true, but that amount of gas doesn't tend to linger for decades. Radiation does.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Chernobyl did blow up "like this". The difference between the explosion at Chernobyl and the one in Beirut, was the Chernobyl blast was partially contained by the reactor vessel which turned it into something like a quasi-nuclear claymore aimed straight up.


How old are these books you're reading, and who wrote them? Frankly, the anti-nuke and fossil fuels lobbies spend a whole lot of money, time, and effort to keep the public's understanding of nuclear power stuck in the 1940's and irrationally fearful, preventing widescale adoption of reactor designs even from the '50s that are tested, proven, and so safe the laws of thermodynamics would have to change for them to produce even a TMI-scale incident. Fast, breeder, and high-temperature reactor designs actually are that old.
It is not the reality of the technology but humans that worries me about this. The discussion surrounding nuclear power has, like so many topics, become extremely polarized. One side is overly freaked out about it and the other is too placating, to the point that it will lead to complacency.

The technology is dangerous and we must appreciate that danger as we walk forward with it. It's like someone seeing a gun, to lose your head upon seeing it helps as much as swinging it around wily nily. I believe we can utilize it but that requires continued respect for what it is capable of.

Human error is enevitable and so we should always be vigilant of the potential consequences if it and try to always minimize the cost.
 

Agema

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Ok, but nuclear plants can't blow up like this.
No, but they can blow up in other ways.

Nuclear power plants are generally used by relatively advanced and stable economies who put a great deal of time and attention into their maintenance and careful operation. Even still, there's Three Mile Island, Fukushima and Chernobyl to ponder on.

It poses major questions about whether nuclear is suitable for use by a substantial number of countries: it strikes me that the sort of country that can knowingly leave a massive bomb in the heart of its capital can as easily fail to look after its nuclear power plants properly.
 

Eacaraxe

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The technology is dangerous and we must appreciate that danger as we walk forward with it.
Just some food for thought, a question for you to look up at your leisure so as to not derail the thread: which energy source produces more radioactive waste by weight, more dangerous radioactive waste products, and releases more radioisotopes in the atmosphere in the course of regular operations, coal or nuclear?
 

Agema

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Just some food for thought, a question for you to look up at your leisure so as to not derail the thread: which energy source produces more radioactive waste by weight, more dangerous radioactive waste products, and releases more radioisotopes in the atmosphere in the course of regular operations, coal or nuclear?
Who gives a monkeys? That is a trivia question without a point to make.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Just some food for thought, a question for you to look up at your leisure so as to not derail the thread: which energy source produces more radioactive waste by weight, more dangerous radioactive waste products, and releases more radioisotopes in the atmosphere in the course of regular operations, coal or nuclear?
I already know what you're trying to get at and it's wrong. Coal does not produce more radioactive waste, coal is far far less regulated that our radioactive material which is why it has more of an effect on the environment.

It is the same thing as someone saying cars are more dangerous than planes. The reason is because flight is much more regulated than cars and the number of people driving is far more than that of those flying. The competency required to get a pilots licence is greater as well. If planes were to be as ubiquitous and as easy to acquire as cars then the amount of plane related accidents would skyrocket.

You only prove my point. As nuclear power becomes more ubiquitous, the more people we will need to watch over the facilities and the lower our standards will have to be for those who work in those facilities in order to staff them all and the more likely that chance or misfortune will cause an accident.

The difference is that the reporcustions of a single nuclear accident are far worse and long lasting than one of coal.
 

SupahEwok

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Who gives a monkeys? That is a trivia question without a point to make.
I already know what you're trying to get at and it's wrong. Coal does not produce more radioactive waste, coal is far far less regulated that our radioactive material which is why it has more of an effect on the environment.
Um.


I'm not really up on the science cuz coal releasing uranium into the atmosphere is news to me, but the question is relevant if the question is "what does more harm, a country of coal plants or a country of nuclear plants where one of them goes oopsies?" Cuz it kinda looks like the country of regularly operating coal plants does more harm than one nuclear power plant going sideways.
 

Eacaraxe

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I already know what you're trying to get at and it's wrong.


Let's go with the minimum concentration of uranium in anthracite coal, 1ppm. Anthricite produces 8 kWh thermal per kilogram, uranium produces 24TWh thermal per kilogram. You have to burn 3,000,000 kg of coal to equal one kilogram of uranium. If .0001% of that mass is uranium (i.e. 1ppm), the byproduct is 3kg worth of uranium. That's just uranium, not accounting for thorium, radium, and radon. Not only does coal produce more radioactive byproducts than nuclear, it produces more radioactive byproducts than nuclear uses in the first place.

Meanwhile, 0.1% of spent nuclear fuel is long-lived high level waste with no secondary medical, industrial, or research use. This video's a pretty good starter on the topic:


So, with proper reprocessing and repurposing spent nuclear fuel, that 1kg of uranium we started with for nuclear power equals approximately 1g of radioactive waste. Nuclear produces less than 1/3000th the amount of radioactive waste as coal to produce the same amount of energy, because yet again I'm still not accounting for thorium, radium, and radon in coal, and I'm giving a freebie in the form of using the purest coal available. Start talking about dirtier coals, and add in thorium, radium, and radon, and that number gets a whole lot tinier.
 
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