Police shoot (another) unarmed black man in the back 7 times

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Houseman

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If you are constantly getting hassled by cops for what you view as trivial reasons
Getting constantly hassled by cops for trivial reasons would be annoying, sure, but I don't see how that would lead to a loss of trust in them. If they're constantly around and constantly "doing their job", then doesn't that mean you can depend on them to show up to protect you when they're needed?

Like, if I see police pulling people over all the time I'm going to be less likely to speed or break any other traffic law, because I don't want to get pulled over. It could be said that I trust the cops to enforce traffic laws, even if I do find them excessive or over-zealous. I certainly wouldn't consider them to be slacking.

If they do a lot of harassing and not a lot of protecting, then sure, I could see why you wouldn't trust them.

Also, I think you're oversimplifying why gangs form, and what gangs actually do, although I have no frame of reference other than movies for this. Nobody calls up the Crips or the Bloods to help solve their domestic disturbance issue. The Black Panthers didn't pull people over and give them speeding tickets. It seems that you view gangs as "noble protectors of the community", which seems optimistic, even for me.

There’s more crime in black communities because there’s less opportunity; there’ less opportunity because of racism. It’s undeniable.
Okay, let's say that all racism is gone from this moment on. Poof. It vanishes.
What opportunities are suddenly afforded to black people that they didn't have before?

If you're blaming the racism of the past, yeah, that's valid, and I'd agree with you. If you want to, say, excise racists from the police, the banks, the real-estate industry, etc, I don't think that'll work to solve a significant percentage of the problem.
 

Buyetyen

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There are several problems at play here, but acting as if one is less important than another because you feel the latter is more important negates the significant role of the former. Yes, income equality is a factor, but imagine trying to get a fair wage/shot from the same people to whom you weren’t a person as recently as 60 years ago (y’know, years ago that many living today people remember vividly.)
The people who would have you believe there is no systemic racism know that what you describe is the case, they just think it's okay for one terrible reason or another. Especially in the case of diehard conservatives, they see hierarchies as the natural order of things and in any hierarchy someone has to be at the bottom. Singling out people who look different from you has been the most effective way of doing it since time meant shit.

Alternatively, the right has also embraced troll logic in which the answer to any critical question is, "Who gives a shit?" Once you've decided not to give a shit, you just need an excuse. Any excuse will do.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Consider the number of times the police get called in for a mental health crisis and instead of helping, just put bullets in people. A gun, nightstick and taser are shitty substitutes for actual medical training.
Ahh, you were talking mental health. I agree that we shouldn't have cops handling that, but at the same time, even if we did have a department for it. Chances are police would still be the first on scene and then call in the mental health people after they identified they were needed.
 

Agema

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See, I'm an optimist. I always believe in the good in people and believe that people are generally good. This is hard for me to believe without any sort of evidence. If you just say "police are evil and racist and secretly Hydra and want to keep the little man down" that just sounds to me like a comic book fantasy.
I don't think the police are evil and racist. I think the police institutionally have their agenda set by "the government", and therefore the question is who and what do the government represent.

So at one time we were probably communitarian hunter-gatherers. Then we developed agriculture, and this allowed the ability to amass wealth. This meant autocracy, oligarchy, aristocracy; all of this structure fundamentally maintained by the ability of the wealthy to have a bunch of bully-boys to forcibly requisition goods from the populace. In a sense, this was also a protection racket, because those bully-boys would also protect the masses from other monarchs' bully boys. But fundamentally, what's going on here is that the state's use of force is designed to maintain a system that mostly benefits the elites and legitimises their wealth and rule. Let's remember of course that the elites also make the law, and thus the social order itself - which conveniently enough allows them to have palaces whilst their people live in huts. Crime, in that sense, is what the government wants it to be: which is what disrupts the social order that the government has set up.

So the police as we now have them really derives from enforcement taken away from the whims of local aristocrats with private armies. (Take somewhere like South America, powerful landowners still have their own de facto private armies). But the fundamental concept is still maintaining the social order.

Head off to a more autocratic state, and even though the crypto-dictator plainly rigs the election and millions turn out to complain, where are the police here? Mostly, defending the crypto-dictator, because he's the government and societal order: but they know as well as anyone what a farce the fake election was. Justice rolls in a bit behind their institutional function, and they flip at the point it becomes clear the authority of the government has collapsed, not at the blatant injustice. We can take the UK, where the police force's reluctance to investigate MPs and other senior government officials is legendary, where plebs are handed out fines and arrest warrants like confetti. You can see it different police attitudes to who is the victim of crime. Murder a wealthy heiress, hold everything, that shit needs sorting out. Murder a street prostitute, the department's worst detective is going to pop along, suck air through his teeth, do some cursory investigations, and write it off three weeks later as unsolved.

So you take the police in a 1950s southern US state, it's a bunch of white guys taking their orders from white politicians who derive their positions from white voters, and particularly the influence of rich white voters. It doesn't matter whether any indvidial cop is personally racist, the whole institution is set up to serve certain people more than others, and the police will just go and do as they institutionally are set to do. In 1920s Florida, a mob wiped an entire black town off the map. The law trundled up, interviewed a few people, the judge decried the violence, and then no prosecutions were levelled and everyone forgot about it for a few generations. Because the law wasn't there to represent black people. They were mostly worried it might inspire black people to burn down some white people's houses: that shit would be intolerable. People talked about "race war". And what really was race war but the fear white people would have of uppity blacks trying to take white people's stuff. When you start to view race relations in those terms: fear, hatred, conflict, that black people were stupid, degenerate, immoral apes, you can totally understand why blacks were seen as people to be guarded, controlled, and so on. And that's what the police were for. So, overpolicing, with more than its fair share of racism.
 

Buyetyen

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Ahh, you were talking mental health. I agree that we shouldn't have cops handling that, but at the same time, even if we did have a department for it. Chances are police would still be the first on scene and then call in the mental health people after they identified they were needed.
Unfortunately that is not the SOP in America. Cops don't know how to deescalate because they never got the training for it. Police culture is also completely absorbed in its own mythology. Cops see themselves as the only line of defense against the evils of human nature and instead of seeing their communities as neighbors, friends, families, ordinary citizens, all of us are just criminals in waiting, anticipating the moment po-po turns his back.

In other words, the police are so heavily militarized in the US that they no longer think of themselves as law enforcement, but a counter-insurgency occupation.
 

Specter Von Baren

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If you are constantly getting hassled by cops for what you view as trivial reasons and no longer trust them for protection, then what do you do to protect your community?


You're not wrong, but I don't think you are right either. I don't think we truly expect them to deal with all that. I mean in the sense of what the public thinks police do, as opposed to what they actually do. And some of that is stuff you kinda want a police presence for, like if there is a medical emergency, it really comes down to who can get there first, since you just need someone with training on scene, down here unless police are needed, like for stopping traffic or something, you will just get fire and ambulance services. For school security, its weird that we have armed officers in them, but something is needed. Also, police training varies wildly depending on where they are located.
You don't form a gang because of cops, you form a gang because of another gang.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Getting constantly hassled by cops for trivial reasons would be annoying, sure, but I don't see how that would lead to a loss of trust in them. If they're constantly around and constantly "doing their job", then doesn't that mean you can depend on them to show up to protect you when they're needed?

Like, if I see police pulling people over all the time I'm going to be less likely to speed or break any other traffic law, because I don't want to get pulled over. It could be said that I trust the cops to enforce traffic laws, even if I do find them excessive or over-zealous. I certainly wouldn't consider them to be slacking.

If they do a lot of harassing and not a lot of protecting, then sure, I could see why you wouldn't trust them.

Also, I think you're oversimplifying why gangs form, and what gangs actually do, although I have no frame of reference other than movies for this. Nobody calls up the Crips or the Bloods to help solve their domestic disturbance issue. The Black Panthers didn't pull people over and give them speeding tickets. It seems that you view gangs as "noble protectors of the community", which seems optimistic, even for me.
Its just minor things that add up and create more and more issues and lead to less and less trust in the system. If them doing their job looks more like they are just bullying you to you and your friends then you will treat it as such.

Are you going to be speeding less because you respect the cops or because you don't want to be hassled by them?

Not really, just because something formed for largely benign reasons doesn't mean it can't become criminal. I am under no delusions about the results of these groups, but usually the formation of them is in response to something like overzealous or corrupt policing.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
You don't form a gang because of cops, you form a gang because of another gang.
What are the cops but another gang?

Unfortunately that is not the SOP in America. Cops don't know how to deescalate because they never got the training for it. Police culture is also completely absorbed in its own mythology. Cops see themselves as the only line of defense against the evils of human nature and instead of seeing their communities as neighbors, friends, families, ordinary citizens, all of us are just criminals in waiting, anticipating the moment po-po turns his back.

In other words, the police are so heavily militarized in the US that they no longer think of themselves as law enforcement, but a counter-insurgency occupation.
At this point yeah.
 
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Houseman

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Are you going to be speeding less because you respect the cops or because you don't want to be hassled by them?
Neither answer is relevant regarding whether or not I think they will come and save me from a violent crime. That's what people generally want "protection" from, right? That's why you think gangs form, for "protection" right?

If I respect them, I'm going to call.
If I think that they hassle, I'm going to call because I want them to hassle the violent criminal.
 
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Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Neither answer is relevant regarding whether or not I think they will come and save me from a violent crime. That's what people generally want "protection" from, right? That's why you think gangs form, for "protection" right?

If I respect them, I'm going to call.
If I think that they hassle, I'm going to call because I want them to hassle the violent criminal.
The problem is that you seem to be assuming most crime is violent, most crime is property. I mean pretty much all the protests going on now weren't about cops being called for a violent crime, it was them overreacting to a property crime, or them just being crazy fuckers.

Even if people distrust the police they will usually be called for violent crime, the people in the area might not trust them enough to give them any assistance but they will still usually be called. Its when people feel that they can't call for help with lesser crime that you start seeing the formation of gangs and such.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Can't you at least give a better response than Buyetyen?
C'mon, I was here first.
Anyway, this vid gives a really neat summary of how the cops started and how we got here.
 

Houseman

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Its when people feel that they can't call for help with lesser crime that you start seeing the formation of gangs and such.
I don't see how getting too many speeding tickets, or getting harassed too often leads to a loss of trust, even over lesser crimes.

Think of the police like a swarm of bees. Every time you walk past their hive, they sting you. So you learn to avoid their hive, fine, but you know that they're consistent at least. They'll sting anyone who walks by. If you have an enemy you hate, you know they'll sting them too. Because they're dependably consistent.

It seems the only thing that would cause one to lose trust in the police is if they are ineffectual at protecting your interests. You rely on them for help, but they don't help.
You can at least see the logic there, right?

If the bees only sting you and not other people, then sure, you won't trust the bees and think that they have it out for you. But there's no indication of that.
 

Buyetyen

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Ah sorry. I ended up reading them out of order.

I would ask what you define as a gang.
For the purposes of this conversation, use it interchangeably with "territorial criminal organization." The police are abusers, thugs, rapists, murderers, predators, thieves, torturers and so much more. And they wield enough organized power to continually get away with it. They are only interested in protecting their own power, no matter who they have to hurt to do it.

Now, this is mind, why wouldn't you think of American cops as a criminal organization?
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
I don't see how getting too many speeding tickets, or getting harassed too often leads to a loss of trust, even over lesser crimes.

Think of the police like a swarm of bees. Every time you walk past their hive, they sting you. So you learn to avoid their hive, fine, but you know that they're consistent at least. They'll sting anyone who walks by. If you have an enemy you hate, you know they'll sting them too. Because they're dependably consistent.

It seems the only thing that would cause one to lose trust in the police is if they are ineffectual at protecting your interests. You rely on them for help, but they don't help.
You can at least see the logic there, right?

If the bees only sting you and not other people, then sure, you won't trust the bees and think that they have it out for you. But there's no indication of that.
Ahh, but now we get into the race issue. What if the bees only seem to sting people with a similar skin color as you. Like you see white people getting away with speeding and not being pulled over but every time you see a black speeder they get pulled over. Its easy to start thinking of them as unfair enforcers who mainly target your group and not other groups.
 

Houseman

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What if the bees only seem to sting people with a similar skin color as you. Like you see white people getting away with speeding and not being pulled over but every time you see a black speeder they get pulled over. Its easy to start thinking of them as unfair enforcers who mainly target your group and not other groups.
That would then be a valid explanation, if it were white people committing crimes against black people.
If you or your business or your property were under attack by white people, I could see how black people, who feel discriminated against, wouldn't trust the police to protect them, and take matters into their own hands.

But if a black person is committing the crime, then I don't see any reason why one wouldn't trust the police for protection. You know that the bee is going to sting them.