Trump's Payroll Tax Cut Will Kill Social Security by 2023

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Buyetyen

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Yeah, that short interlude that is always referred to to make up for the next 600 years that Islam is suffocating those countries with their medieval dogmas taking people's freedoms on penalty of chopping off hands, hanging people on cranes and stoning them to death for the offense of being gay or women having an extramarital affair. The Islamic caliphates were certainly heaven as well. Saladin and his armies were certainly pure and noble compared to the brute Richard Lionheart.
"Europe conquered the Dark Ages!"
"Actually, the so-called Dark Ages were rough for Europe, but the rest of the world was doing pretty well, all things considered."
"FUCK YOU! THOSE COUNTRIES SUCK NOW!"

See, this is why I think you're kind of racist. Next time respond to what I actually said. Or stick to your original line of argument instead of trying to weasel your way out of being called out on ignorant statements.

Yeah, I'm sure it's only a matter of time before Europeans are waiting at the immigration line hoping to get into Saudi Arabia or Mali. L O L!
Ironically, for someone who has such a negative opinion of immigration, you're not big on goal posts staying in one place, I notice.

I also notice that you edited out everything you couldn't come up with some immature snark to. I'll just take that as you admitting I know way more about history than you retend to.
 
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Trunkage

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Family is favoritism. Family creates inequality. If your sole goal is equality, it makes perfect sense to go after the institution of the family. The logic makes sense. The historical record is there. People claiming I'm wrong are gaslighting this, badly.
I deliberately put my children into an institution so I cant show them favouritism. Trump puts his family into institutions and places them at the head. Pick which one is the one that Marx likes

And, this is very important, this is the EXACT principle of Capitalism. It's meant to be a meritocracy. In reality, Capitalism can never be a meritocracy because of all this:
As in all things, there are different interpretations in different times and places because circumstances change. It's important to try and understand the theory away from the circumstances. What's the issue with family that runs contrary to a classless, stateless society? What is family but a distinction between one group of people from the rest? That's a class of people. It may look as though some of what Marx would want may be implemented by now, that child labor is gone in many places and education is socialized, but modern education is almost less about education than it is about class hierarchy. I don't think even wealth as a metric can compete with the classicism that is modern education and the degree system. Inheritance is still very much a thing, one that many actively protest, and even if inheritance at death ceased to be a thing, passing the things you own to your children while alive would still be a thing. That's all utterly incompatible with communism.
Meritocracy never stood a chance.

As far as I'm aware, the abolish of family is about abolishing the nuclear family with the father the one making all the decisions. It's against a specific type of family and encourages other versions. Remember, this is the time that was incredible dogmatic and the patriarchal family was pretty much the only acceptable version of family.
 

Buyetyen

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I deliberately put my children into an institution so I cant show them favouritism. Trump puts his family into institutions and places them at the head. Pick which one is the one that Marx likes

And, this is very important, this is the EXACT principle of Capitalism. It's meant to be a meritocracy. In reality, Capitalism can never be a meritocracy because of all this:

Meritocracy never stood a chance.

As far as I'm aware, the abolish of family is about abolishing the nuclear family with the father the one making all the decisions. It's against a specific type of family and encourages other versions. Remember, this is the time that was incredible dogmatic and the patriarchal family was pretty much the only acceptable version of family.
The defense of the nuclear family is also a laugh-and-a-half because in Marx's time it was still common and acceptable for affluent married people to have lovers outside of the marriage. At that time, marriage among the privileged was for perpetuating privilege. You were just expected to be discreet. Manet's "Luncheon on the Grass" was so controversial in 1863 specifically because it portrayed 2 well-to-do Frenchmen with their mistresses as if to say, "Fuck your discretion, we totally do this all the time, we just pretend we don't!"
 

lil devils x

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I'm curious about this. What was your previous land and what was the catastrophe?
I am not a Historian, so I am not likely remembering all the details they do off the top of my head but from what I remember what we were taught about where we came from before they abandoned it in the ships was that it was an island in the Pacific that we had a great civilization that we reached high levels of knowledge and technology and that it was in fact sinking. They talked about the giant sink holes forming and buildings falling in and then flooding and then the people abandoned it and sailed to the east. When they arrived in South America, they were instructed to build the great center of learning to preserve the knowledge from our previous civilization, and that is still known to us as "the great city to the south" or what is presently known in the west as the "Mayan Pyramids". From what we were taught is that we were supposed to build it to preserve our past and then abandon it and build our new life on this continent, that was why the Hopi chose not to stay there after it was built but instead traveled North until deciding to settle in the four corners region.

EDIT: It was stories from our tribe and others that sent earlier explorers looking for " The mythical lost continent of Mu" but the island didn't have to be a continent, and it didn't have to be located there. There have been rumors that we actually came from the sunken part of New Zealand as well but who knows exactly. It isn't like they kept a record of their actual voyage. We just know we came from that direction. HAHA!

Here is some about the lost continent of Mu they went looking for:
 
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Specter Von Baren

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I am not a Historian, so I am not likely remembering all the details they do off the top of my head but from what I remember what we were taught about where we came from before they abandoned it in the ships was that it was an island in the Pacific that we had a great civilization that we reached high levels of knowledge and technology and that it was in fact sinking. They talked about the giant sink holes forming and buildings falling in and then flooding and then the people abandoned it and sailed to the east. When they arrived in South America, they were instructed to build the great center of learning to preserve the knowledge from our previous civilization, and that is still known to us as "the great city to the south" or what is presently known in the west as the "Mayan Pyramids". From what we were taught is that we were supposed to build it to preserve our past and then abandon it and build our new life on this continent, that was why the Hopi chose not to stay there after it was built but instead traveled North until deciding to settle in the four corners region.

EDIT: It was stories from our tribe and others that sent earlier explorers looking for " The mythical lost continent of Mu" but the island didn't have to be a continent, and it didn't have to be located there. There have been rumors that we actually came from the sunken part of New Zealand as well but who knows exactly. It isn't like they kept a record of their actual voyage. We just know we came from that direction. HAHA!

Here is some about the lost continent of Mu they went looking for:
Wouldn't be surprised if it was another casualty of the end of the ice age.
 
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lil devils x

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Wouldn't be surprised if it was another casualty of the end of the ice age.
LOL Every time they find some underwater anything in the Pacific, you can be sure every Hopi, Mayan and relative perk up " just to see if they found it yet" HAHA!
Like when they found this our phone was ringing off the hook with relatives calling:

 

Agema

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Fact is people only have solidarity with their tribe and most importantly their next of kin. That is how humans have evolved.
No. People tend to have solidarity with other people that they are more familiar with. This naturally tends to mean the people around us - not just family, but friends and so on.

An important result of this is that it can to a substantial degree be taught, by informing people about and introducing them to different people and cultures, or simply encouraging openness to diversity. In much the same way it can be suppressed by hyping up xenophobia instead. These are in large part choices that societies, communities and individuals can make. And thus the difference between how you and your society views difference, and how L'il Devs and hers do.
 

Trunkage

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The defense of the nuclear family is also a laugh-and-a-half because in Marx's time it was still common and acceptable for affluent married people to have lovers outside of the marriage. At that time, marriage among the privileged was for perpetuating privilege. You were just expected to be discreet. Manet's "Luncheon on the Grass" was so controversial in 1863 specifically because it portrayed 2 well-to-do Frenchmen with their mistresses as if to say, "Fuck your discretion, we totally do this all the time, we just pretend we don't!"
Sorry, I misspoke. The nuclear family was a recreation of the patriarchal system from a hundred years prior but updated a little. And definitely romanticised. Sort of like how Westerns were a recreation of the Wild West, which were generally way less wild than the big cities to the East and most Wild West towns banned people carrying guns. Because 2A didn't reach there and they could see that guns were bad. And the lie about cowboys wearing Stetson, when they actually wore fedoras

But yes, love and marriage certainly didn't go together in the 1800s.
 

Buyetyen

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And the lie about cowboys wearing Stetson, when they actually wore fedoras
And mostly former slaves (i.e. black, illiterate and willing to take on the jobs white people weren't). That part tends to get glossed over by dumb white people. Can't imagine why.

But, yeah I get what you meant.
 

Agema

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I don't think even wealth as a metric can compete with the classicism that is modern education and the degree system.
I think you have a different conception of class from Marx: Marx has a very specific view of it.

Even in communism stuff needs to be done, that people need to be educated to do it, and consequently levels of education between individuals will differ. However, if opportunities for education are equal to all, then they no longer have the wealth-based aspect of access to education that our society does. Furthermore, by levelling a lot of the structure of hierarchy, education would not provide the power and wealth that it can be leveraged for in our society.

Inheritance is still very much a thing, one that many actively protest, and even if inheritance at death ceased to be a thing, passing the things you own to your children while alive would still be a thing. That's all utterly incompatible with communism.
Communism is concerned with ownership of the means of production. People can still have personal possessions, and personal possessions can still be passed between individuals.

Family is favoritism. Family creates inequality. If your sole goal is equality, it makes perfect sense to go after the institution of the family. The logic makes sense. The historical record is there. People claiming I'm wrong are gaslighting this, badly.
There is nothing wrong with loving your family and friends, and liking them more than other people. There is something wrong with nepotism, but that's true in our society, too.
 

Thaluikhain

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Native Americans still call the mountains, rivers and valleys what we always have. It's not our fault if other's didn't bother asking what the name was before going and renaming everything. XD
Was reading, I think the Journal of Nicholas Cresswell, and according to him this was, in part, purely intentional. You had a local name and an European name for places so that the locals didn't know where you were talking about. In part this was innocent, there were concerns if you start talking about local places while speaking in a language the locals didn't know they'd think you were up to something, but on second though, it sounds a bit shady.

Also meant that it was fun getting directions to places.
 

crimson5pheonix

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This thread doesn't seem to have been about the payroll tax cut for pages but maybe someone can answer this...


Looking into it (I could use some extra cash right about now so I wanted to see how this thing would help me), everything I've seen about the payroll tax is that it is a deferral, NOT a cut. Basically if you take advantage of the payroll tax deferral, you'll get a bigger paycheck for the remainder of the year but then you'll essentially be paying that back starting at the beginning of next year.

So how is Social Security dying because of this? Is that letter referring to a different piece of legislation and I'm mixing things up?
Trump has promised to make the deferral indefinite if he wins the election.
 
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stroopwafel

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See, this is why I think you're kind of racist. Next time respond to what I actually said. Or stick to your original line of argument instead of trying to weasel your way out of being called out on ignorant statements.
What does religion have to do with race? I simply put your admiration for islam in perspective. That you subsequently tried to assassinate my character with your perpetual 'racist' card just shows how morally bankrupt you are.

Ironically, for someone who has such a negative opinion of immigration, you're not big on goal posts staying in one place, I notice.

I also notice that you edited out everything you couldn't come up with some immature snark to. I'll just take that as you admitting I know way more about history than you retend to.
Do you really expect me to reply to each and every one of your incoherent ramblings? I replied to the gist of it.


No. People tend to have solidarity with other people that they are more familiar with. This naturally tends to mean the people around us - not just family, but friends and so on.

An important result of this is that it can to a substantial degree be taught, by informing people about and introducing them to different people and cultures, or simply encouraging openness to diversity. In much the same way it can be suppressed by hyping up xenophobia instead. These are in large part choices that societies, communities and individuals can make. And thus the difference between how you and your society views difference, and how L'il Devs and hers do.
I literally took an as broad a definition of tribe as possible ie people that share the same values and history. That is what creates familiarity not diametrically opposed values like those between Enlightenment and islam. That is one of the reasons why populism is on the rise in Europe, why immigration divides nations and why ghetto's are formed ie the rejection of the 'other'. That is no different than it was in ancestral times. Muslims, in their turn, also isolate themselves within their tribe for this exact same reason. They actually are the most intolerant of any group. They reject western values for finding their own tribe superior and then I'll even leave terrorism out of it. The differences are irreconcilable no matter how much you 'encourage openness to diversity'. That's a pipe dream they tried to propagate in the 80s and 90s but blew up in the establishment's face with the massive rise of populism. Nobody believes in that idealism anymore when it are mostly the people already at the bottom that have to pluck the sour grapes from this. Not the elite that makes the decisions and live in lily white exclusive neighbourhoods.
 
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Satinavian

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I disagree with this. We actively traded and intermarried with the Aztecs and they were not some bloodthirsty warmongers as you suggest. I see making them out to be THAT as the embellishment. Acting like their captives were treated any different than your criminals and that their execution of criminals were any more inhumane than those in Europe is what is ridiculous. Europe was just plain sick in the way they tortured people.
Sorry, but Aztecs as bloody warmongers is pretty much proven. That doesn't make them more warlike than other warlike cultures and certainly does not exclude trade or intermarriage, but the number of confirmed wars in the years before Europeans came is quite staggering and the three-city-alliance dominating so many other people didn't happen by peaceful means either.

In general, people having trade is not a proof that there never have been wars. Movement of trade goods for long distances also doesn't mean that people have any direct contact.

And as for how peaceful American tribes prior to recorded history are, well, i would not trust oral traditions very much. Oral tradition is about important events with meaning for the culture of the tribe. It is rarely about regular life and common events. And it is basically never about exact dates or numbers. Archeology is how we can get the best answers here. And archeology suggests that American tribes were neither particularly warlike nor peaceful and match up well with other tribal cultures all over the world. Which by the way means more warlike compared to most most non-tribal cultures. The way the estimates work is looking at burials and reasons of death. And when an archeologist says that 10% of adult corpses in an area show signs of death by weapon, i'll take it over some oral story of how peaceful it was any time of the day.

And that is not about prejudices against american tribes. The very same thing can be done and is done for European tribal cultures. And for non-tribal cultures.

In general, the perception of Europe as particularly warlike is wrong as well, even if we compare only regions with historical records. It is just that European history including the wars tends to be better known in the anglosphere. They were, surprise, surprise, pretty average unless we zoom in on certain dates and countries.

Europeans started kidnapping, raping, abusing and killing people from the second they stepped foot here, Read Columbus's own words.
Columbus was pretty bad. This is also why he lost his position as soon as Spain got to know what he did.

Read what the Spaniards said they did to the people.
I assume that is again about Bartolomeo de las Casas as you bring him up all the time. Do you actuall know for whom and why he told this stuff ? He did it in Spain to get the rulers to pass laws for better treatment of the natives. He absolutely was not a fan of what the conquistadors did and neither was the church or catholic orders. He also might have embelleshed a bit because he was a political actor with an agenda, not a neutral observer.
And he did get his wish. The Spanish crown heard his plea and made laws to protect the natives. Unfortunately the conquistadors rebelled, declared independence and the Spanish crown was not able or willing to send another army to conquer the region again. Eventually they settled to just not implement the laws and keep the conquistadors and their heirs in power.

I am not saying that what the Spanish did in the Americas was not so bad or anything. Just that it was pretty much horrible for European standards as well and the people back in Europe were not happy about it even then.
 
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lil devils x

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Sorry, but Aztecs as bloody warmongers is pretty much proven. That doesn't make them more warlike than other warlike cultures and certainly does not exclude trade or intermarriage, but the number of confirmed wars in the years before Europeans came is quite staggering and the three-city-alliance dominating so many other people didn't happen by peaceful means either.

In general, people having trade is not a proof that there never have been wars. Movement of trade goods for long distances also doesn't mean that people have any direct contact.

And as for how peaceful American tribes prior to recorded history are, well, i would not trust oral traditions very much. Oral tradition is about important events with meaning for the culture of the tribe. It is rarely about regular life and common events. And it is basically never about exact dates or numbers. Archeology is how we can get the best answers here. And archeology suggests that American tribes were neither particularly warlike nor peaceful and match up well with other tribal cultures all over the world. Which by the way means more warlike compared to most most non-tribal cultures. The way the estimates work is looking at burials and reasons of death. And when an archeologist says that 10% of adult corpses in an area show signs of death by weapon, i'll take it over some oral story of how peaceful it was any time of the day.

And that is not about prejudices against american tribes. The very same thing can be done and is done for European tribal cultures. And for non-tribal cultures.

In general, the perception of Europe as particularly warlike is wrong as well, even if we compare only regions with historical records. It is just that European history including the wars tends to be better known in the anglosphere. They were, surprise, surprise, pretty average unless we zoom in on certain dates and countries.

Columbus was pretty bad. This is also why he lost his position as soon as Spain got to know what he did.

I assume that is again about Bartolomeo de las Casas as you bring him up all the time. Do you actuall know for whom and why he told this stuff ? He did it in Spain to get the rulers to pass laws for better treatment of the natives. He absolutely was not a fan of what the conquistadors did and neither was the church or catholic orders. He also might have embelleshed a bit because he was a political actor with an agenda, not a neutral observer.
And he did get his wish. The Spanish crown heard his plea and made laws to protect the natives. Unfortunately the conquistadors rebelled, declared independence and the Spanish crown was not able or willing to send another army to conquer the region again. Eventually they settled to just not implement the laws and keep the conquistadors and their heirs in power.

I am not saying that what the Spanish did in the Americas was not so bad or anything. Just that it was pretty much horrible for European standards as well and the people back in Europe were not happy about it even then.
You're missing the point. The tribes did not hear about what was happening in Spain, they only knew of what was shown here. The laws were BS anyhow when you look at what happened AFTER that. They enslaved entire populations, numerous tribes and worked them death and then replaced them with Africans they imported to do the exact same thing to. Regardless of what laws they may have passed back home, that did not translate into better treatment for the people whose lands they invaded. It changed NOTHING, and this continued for generations. their attempt at " better treatment" was just a horse and pony show for their investors. Nothing more.

You should also consider that most of what Europeans think they know about the tribes, including the Aztecs was written by those who justified trying to exterminate them. No it was not " proven", far from it. Their interpretation of events was skewed by their own bias. From our understanding however, prior to the European invasion, Far fewer people wound up dead from Aztec wars than did so from European battles. The Aztecs actually preferred to take prisoners of war alive rather than actually kill them and gave their opposition a chance to surrender. Killing their enemies on the battlefield was seen as undesirable and without honor, unlike European/ Viking traditions of preferring to die in battle. The objective was to actually try to capture them alive instead. There is no word for " Sacrifice" in the Aztec language. Only some of the people from the actual battle were actually charged and killed for " war crimes" in the temple. Sure they made a huge presentation of it and took their hearts during the execution as a means to " intimidate" and "discourage" others from rising up against them, but this was considered more like executing criminals to make an example out of them, not "human sacrifice" for the sake of human sacrifice as was invented by the Christians who attempted to demonize them. But this was the Aztecs we are talking about here, they ALWAYS tried to put on a show, presentation was everything in everything they did, not just their executions. They were a very extravagant and "peacocking" culture. The Christians version left out the part that they were charged as war criminals and that Aztecs tried to capture as many alive in battle as possible rather than just try to slaughter them and instead tried to portray them as mindlessly sacrificing people to their blasphemy gods.. There was much more to it than that.

You do not have "one story" about how the majority of tribes being peaceful, you have Hundreds from different sources, different tribes and even those Europeans who first encountered them. This wasn't "invented to make people look better", it was just the norm. Wars among tribes were a pretty big deal and rare when they happened and involved politics from numerous nations due to interrupting trade routes and tribes risked backlash from allies and trading partners of those they chose to war with. Those that chose to do so had to answer for doing so to other tribes, it was not an easy task for a tribe to choose to take that route and they risked much to do so and usually resulted in much hardship for themselves. I am not saying it didn't happen in any way, I am saying that it was far more complicated than most realize due to the understandings and agreements made between the many tribes on what was expected of them. They weren't just able to do so and not expected to answer for it. That is part of why the Aztecs had to war with so many tribes, when they started a war with one, they had to go to war with many due to the politics of the region. It wasn't that they were this bloodthirsty war tribe, it was that was the price that was paid for going to war at all.

It would be more comparable to that anytime one nation tried to war with another in Europe, ALL the allied nations got involved and it then it got ugly creating a massive war.
 
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lil devils x

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Was reading, I think the Journal of Nicholas Cresswell, and according to him this was, in part, purely intentional. You had a local name and an European name for places so that the locals didn't know where you were talking about. In part this was innocent, there were concerns if you start talking about local places while speaking in a language the locals didn't know they'd think you were up to something, but on second though, it sounds a bit shady.

Also meant that it was fun getting directions to places.
Yea, it didn't work though because tribes picked up on their languages quickly, far quicker than the settlers picked up on the native languages, so the native tribes understood what they were talking about regardless. XD
 

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You're missing the point. The tribes did not hear about what was happening in Spain, they only knew of what was shown here. The laws were BS anyhow when you look at what happened AFTER that. They enslaved entire populations, numerous tribes and worked them death and then replaced them with Africans they imported to do the exact same thing to. Regardless of what laws they may have passed back home, that did not translate into better treatment for the people whose lands they invaded. It changed NOTHING, and this continued for generations. their attempt at " better treatment" was just a horse and pony show for their investors. Nothing more.

You should also consider that most of what Europeans think they know about the tribes, including the Aztecs was written by those who justified trying to exterminate them. No it was not " proven", far from it. Their interpretation of events was skewed by their own bias. From our understanding however, prior to the European invasion, Far fewer people wound up dead from Aztec wars than did so from European battles. The Aztecs actually preferred to take prisoners of war alive rather than actually kill them and gave their opposition a chance to surrender. Killing their enemies on the battlefield was seen as undesirable and without honor, unlike European/ Viking traditions of preferring to die in battle. The objective was to actually try to capture them alive instead. There is no word for " Sacrifice" in the Aztec language. Only some of the people from the actual battle were actually charged and killed for " war crimes" in the temple. This was considered more like executing criminals not "human sacrifice" as was invented by the Christians who attempted to demonize them.

You do not have "one story" about how the majority of tribes being peaceful, you have Hundreds from different sources, different tribes and even those Europeans who first encountered them. This wasn't "invented to make people look better", it was just the norm. Wars among tribes were a pretty big deal and rare when they happened and involved politics from numerous nations due to interrupting trade routes and tribes risked backlash from allies and trading partners of those they chose to war with. Those that chose to do so had to answer for doing so to other tribes, it was not an easy task for a tribe to choose to take that route and they risked much to do so and usually resulted in much hardship for themselves. I am not saying it didn't happen in any way, I am saying that it was far more complicated than most realize due to the understandings and agreements made between the many tribes on what was expected of them. They weren't just able to do so and not expected to answer for it.
Two things.
One. Regarding importation of African slave labor. If you look at the percentage of african descent people living in Latin America, you'd find the regions which were least populated with natives at the top - Brazil, Venezuela, Colombia. Those were also the regions where massive cash-crop plantations were set-up.
The west indies were thoroughly stripped of its native people by a combination of war, disease, famine and slavery. There are no native-americans in the west-indies.
This leads me to my conclusion - regions which were heavily populated by native-americans did not have a large quantity of african slave labor imported because it was heavily-populated. Despite the desolation in the century after Europeans reached the new world, the native populations in mexico and the peruvian mountain range bounced back. The lack of african slave labor was especially evident in the silver and gold mines in what is modern-day Bolivia and Peru - the altitude was so high, that slaves which were imported to work in the mines died because of it. They couldn't do slave-labor in 4Kmeters above sea level. This is why local natives were used as a form of slave labor, which was the mita system that they had adopted from the Incan Empire where subservient tribes paid "taxes" (or "tribute") with labor as a form of "national service". This is why regions around the mines are much poorer than others.
Regarding Mexico, the colonialist conquistadors employed the encomienda system in which they forced tribes into service.

Two. Regarding the Nahuatl religion, its depiction of ritualistic sacrifice and warlike state. Not unlike older Pagan faiths in the old world, which also employed human sacrifice (Roman vestal virgins, Norse blot, etc.), Inca and Nahuatl also included human sacrifice. Inca on a smaller scale though, which had ritualistic sacrifices of young virgin couples (children), as a symbolic significance for their faith in the sun and moon. Children were also sacrificed during hard times, and when the Incan king died. This is not too different from Moloch Baal worship by the Phoenicians, Egyptians burying a pharaoh with their slaves, and other nice things I probably forgot about. Oh, I think that in the old Slavic tradition, before the Norse united the tribes under the Ruriks, whenever a husband passed away and left his wives behind, one of his wife would kill herself at his burial site. I think it was usually the one that loved him the most.
Nahuatl on the other hand is interesting because it employed frequent raids and wars in an attempt to keep a steady supply of captives. Even if you look at the borders of the three-city coalition, with its tributary states - you'd see that they had deliberately left some cities as rivals so they could repeatedly raid them for captives.
There is a bunch of videos here, a good watch. Evidence is a mixture of Spanish sources and archaeological sites.

Where is your sauce for this claim you made -
"Only some of the people from the actual battle were actually charged and killed for " war crimes" in the temple. This was considered more like executing criminals not "human sacrifice" as was invented by the Christians who attempted to demonize them."
 

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Native people of the caribean:

Diseases obviously had a lot to do with the decimation of the indigenous population, but forced labor was also one of the chief reasons as to why the population decimated. The first man to introduce this forced labor among the Taínos was leader of the European colonization of Puerto Rico, Ponce de León. This forced labor eventually led to the Taíno rebellions, in which the Spaniards responded with violent military expeditions known as cabalgadas. The purpose of the military expedition was to capture the indigenous peoples. This violence by the Spaniards was a reason why there was a decline in the Taíno population since it forced many of these people to emigrate.

This archaeologist actually bothered to gain a better understanding the culture before drawing conclusions and she is far more accurate than most:

Most rely on the extremely inaccurate and biased interpretations of Christian religious leaders and the Spaniards who were trying to exterminate them and make excuses for enslaving them. In addition, it should be noted that the word meaning "offering" was also used for " non sacrifices" as there was not actually a word for " sacrifice" at all in their language and did not always refer to such. " hundreds" of skulls.. How many people were slaughtered in European wars by comparison?
 
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Iron

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Native people of the caribean:



This archaeologist actually bothered to gain a better understanding the culture before drawing conclusions and she is far more accurate than most:

Most rely on the extremely inaccurate and biased interpretations of Christian religious leaders and the Spaniards who were trying to exterminate them and make excuses for enslaving them.
True, forced labor as well. We have next to nothing regarding the Taino people. They've gone extinct.
HEY! Do you see in the wikipedia article that in ALL of the paragraph there are [citation needed] additions? This whole paragraph is unsubstantiated. Where would the Taino even emigrate, since they had no ability to reach the mainland.
Nice website, but I'd stick with science magazine. I don't know if she actually bothered to have a better understanding or just tried really hard to fit what she thought into what she wanted to be.

• Think about it. Why would a young man repeatedly go into battle and risk his life just to drag his opponent off to a priest? Warriors’ wives alone would start a revolution. This scenario is about as likely as telling young men in Britain to fight in Iraq without paying them a salary or benefits. No one would fight!

think about it!
This is cope.

SAME WEBSITE.

So there WAS human sacrifice? What? How could that be? Maybe that one woman scientist's article from 2009 shouldn't be your basis for your beliefs?
 
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Agema

Overhead a rainbow appears... in black and white
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I literally took an as broad a definition of tribe as possible ie people that share the same values and history. That is what creates familiarity not diametrically opposed values like those between Enlightenment and islam. That is one of the reasons why populism is on the rise in Europe, why immigration divides nations and why ghetto's are formed ie the rejection of the 'other'.
It is more about failures of social policy. Sure, there is a clash: generally open-minded immigrants came to the West and encountered locals full of imperialist notions of racial and cultural superiority, and were subjected to a lot of hostility. Governments just didn't think very hard about integration and people getting along: ghettos were formed in large part because immigrants - usually being poor - were dumped in the poorest areas, never mind that the overt hostility of so many locals made it far more preferable to stick together. Government was weak to take action to encourage diversity for decades, mostly seeing its job as to keep a lid on things.

Why is populism on the rise? Pop along to Poland and Hungary, where populists have been most successful. How many black people, south or eastern Asians or Middle Easterners do you see there? They are not facing problems of internal racial and cultural divisions, they just leverage the notion of it for votes. If we take Brexit, the interesting thing is that the big rise in anti-EU sentiment that led to the referendum win started ~2010, and it rose in post-industrial towns that were hammered by post-crash austerity. People who were economically and socially frustrated looked for someone to blame, and the right wing gave them an easy target: immigrants and foreigners. Like I said, you can teach tolerance, or you can teach xenophobia. Some political elements in our societies teach xenophobia, and sometimes they win.

To say Islam and the Enlightenment are "diametrically opposed" is an absolute nonsense. What is the Enlightenment? I suppose the most popular view is that it represented the ascendancy of science and reason as the basis of progress. After that, it's hard to really assess. Maybe human rights, tolerance, individual liberty, democracy. But who is seriously going to argue that Muslims inherently reject science, reason, human rights, tolerance, democracy and individual liberty? It's sheer absurdity. So there is a small minority of extremist Muslims and there's a clash there, but one only needs to take a brief look at the West to see a substantial proportion of voters backing parties and policies plainly hostile to "Enlightenment values", too. When we talk about "Islamofascism", it's not purely coincidental: it actually reveals a deep similarity in attitudes between Islam's intolerant authoritarians and the West's own. Thus the sort of claim of the incompatibility of Islam and the West overlooks both the fact that most Muslims are open to Enlightenment values, and that a significant proportion of our own populations have never been open to them.
 
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