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[lil devils x]

True, forced labor as well. We have next to nothing regarding the Taino people. They've gone extinct.
HEY! Do you see in the wikipedia article that in ALL of the paragraph there are [citation needed] additions? This whole paragraph is unsubstantiated. Where would the Taino even emigrate, since they had no ability to reach the mainland.
Nice website, but I'd stick with science magazine. I don't know if she actually bothered to have a better understanding or just tried really hard to fit what she thought into what she wanted to be.

You can " choose" to believe whatever archaeologist you want, that doesn't mean it will give you an accurate picture. At least this one takes into account the histories as documented by the many other tribes as well. Our Tribe has no duty to help the Aztecs, they killed many of the Hopi trading partners. This is just how they were seen here as well before the Christian and Spaniard ignorant interpretations. You really shouldn't believe much that the Spaniards had to say about people they were actively enslaving and exterminating, they were sadistic religious extremists who raped, tortured, enslaved, abused and murdered people. They are likely to give you the most inaccurate interpretation there is. Hell, you might as well be watching Apocalypto to let Mel Gibson teach you about Mesoamerica. LOL

EDIT: them adding Citation needed does not mean it is actually unsubstantiated We have numerous sources discussing what happened to them, as this is actually not disputed and pretty much standard learning in the US:

Puerto Rico: Cultural Information Inside! - Cultural Mixology

Puerto Rico is a Caribbean melting pot that is a definite study in contrasts. This Puerto Rico cultural information is definitely worth exploring!

culturalmixology.com

https://www.nlm.nih.gov/nativevoices/timeline/170.html

Digital History

www.digitalhistory.uh.edu

Spanish colonizers enslave the Taino | Investing in Native Communities

Resources to support philanthropic funding for Native Americans and Indigenous communities in the United States.

nativephilanthropy.candid.org

This is what is being taught in the US as the history of Puerto Rico.

 

[Iron]

You can " choose" to believe whatever archaeologist you want, that doesn't mean it will give you an accurate picture. At least this one takes into account the histories as documented by the many other tribes as well. Our Tribe has no duty to help the Aztecs, they killed many of the Hopi trading partners. This is just how they were seen here as well before the Christian and Spaniard ignorant interpretations.

SAME. WEBSITE.

Self-sacrifice

The Aztecs (Mexica) and the practice of ritual self or auto sacrifice

www.mexicolore.co.uk

I don't need to believe an archaeologist, the damn rocks speak for themselves, as well as the skulls buried underneath them.

 

[Iron]

You can " choose" to believe whatever archaeologist you want, that doesn't mean it will give you an accurate picture. At least this one takes into account the histories as documented by the many other tribes as well. Our Tribe has no duty to help the Aztecs, they killed many of the Hopi trading partners. This is just how they were seen here as well before the Christian and Spaniard ignorant interpretations. You really shouldn't believe much that the Spaniards had to say about people they were actively enslaving and exterminating, they were sadistic religious extremists who raped, tortured, enslaved, abused and murdered people. They are likely to give you the most inaccurate interpretation there is. Hell, you might as well be watching Apocalypto to let Mel Gibson teach you about Mesoamerica. LOL

It's a combination of archaeological evidence and written records by the Spanish. It's the best kind of history there is - you only have to sift through the shit to find the gold. The archaeological evidence helped a lot to find out the truth.
Are you going to keep staying in the moral highground because "MUH EUROPEANS" were bad? Or do you want me to make fun of your Hopi tribe and its interpretations? You can't insult my sources when your sources are literal hearsay.

Shit, Apocalypto was a good movie. I won't let you insult Mel Gibson, the madlad bounced back and is still making good films.

 

[Iron]

You can " choose" to believe whatever archaeologist you want, that doesn't mean it will give you an accurate picture. At least this one takes into account the histories as documented by the many other tribes as well. Our Tribe has no duty to help the Aztecs, they killed many of the Hopi trading partners. This is just how they were seen here as well before the Christian and Spaniard ignorant interpretations. You really shouldn't believe much that the Spaniards had to say about people they were actively enslaving and exterminating, they were sadistic religious extremists who raped, tortured, enslaved, abused and murdered people. They are likely to give you the most inaccurate interpretation there is. Hell, you might as well be watching Apocalypto to let Mel Gibson teach you about Mesoamerica. LOL

EDIT: them adding Citation needed does not mean it is actually unsubstantiated We have numerous sources discussing what happened to them, as this is actually not disputed and pretty much standard learning in the US:

Puerto Rico: Cultural Information Inside! - Cultural Mixology

Puerto Rico is a Caribbean melting pot that is a definite study in contrasts. This Puerto Rico cultural information is definitely worth exploring!

culturalmixology.com

https://www.nlm.nih.gov/nativevoices/timeline/170.html

Digital History

www.digitalhistory.uh.edu

Spanish colonizers enslave the Taino | Investing in Native Communities

Resources to support philanthropic funding for Native Americans and Indigenous communities in the United States.

nativephilanthropy.candid.org

This is what is being taught in the US as the history of Puerto Rico.

Spanish colonizers enslave the Taino | Investing in Native Communities

Resources to support philanthropic funding for Native Americans and Indigenous communities in the United States.

nativephilanthropy.candid.org

This cites a Spanish source. I thought you shouldn't believe what the Spaniards had to say about people they were actively enslaving and exterminating!!!!!

 

[lil devils x]

It's a combination of archaeological evidence and written records by the Spanish. It's the best kind of history there is - you only have to sift through the shit to find the gold. The archaeological evidence helped a lot to find out the truth.
Are you going to keep staying in the moral highground because "MUH EUROPEANS" were bad? Or do you want me to make fun of your Hopi tribe and its interpretations? You can't insult my sources when your sources are literal hearsay.

Shit, Apocalypto was a good movie. I won't let you insult Mel Gibson, the madlad bounced back and is still making good films.

Apocalypto is crap. LOL

"Apocalypto" Tortures the Facts, Expert Says

Mel Gibson does not think his movie should be seen as a historical document, and one expert could not agree more.

www.nationalgeographic.com

The archaeological evidence tells us one story, the Spaniards tell us another. It is not the "best kind of history" when it is biased and inaccurate. What do the Spaniards say about the Aztecs intentionally not trying to kill people on the battlefield? What do they tell us happened to the majority of the prisoners of war that the Aztecs took captive? What do they tell us about WHY the Aztecs wound up having to fight so many tribes at once? What do they tell us about the measures the Aztecs took to try to avoid war? All of the Europeans were not bad, the Spaniards CERTAINLY were. They were the worst sort of bad and made it more difficult on everyone else by the time others started to arrive, as they set the example as to what to expect from them. Hopi didn't " Interpret" the past, they lived it. For the tribes here it isn't "lets go find some bones and figure out what this means", instead it is the histories kept by the many tribes that tell us what happened and where you should go look for the bones instead.

 

[lil devils x]

Spanish colonizers enslave the Taino | Investing in Native Communities

Resources to support philanthropic funding for Native Americans and Indigenous communities in the United States.

nativephilanthropy.candid.org

This cites a Spanish source. I thought you shouldn't believe what the Spaniards had to say about people they were actively enslaving and exterminating!!!!!

Documenting that the Spaniards were there and enslaving people =\= telling us their "opinion" of the people they were trying to justify enslaving and exterminating.

 

[Iron]

Apocalypto is crap. LOL

"Apocalypto" Tortures the Facts, Expert Says

Mel Gibson does not think his movie should be seen as a historical document, and one expert could not agree more.

www.nationalgeographic.com

The archaeological evidence tells us one story, the Spaniards tell us another. It is not the "best kind of history" when it is biased and inaccurate. What do the Spaniards say about the Aztecs intentionally not trying to kill people on the battlefield? What do they tell us about happened to the majority of the prisoners of war that the Aztecs took captive? What do they tell us about WHY the Aztecs wound up having to fight so many tribes at once? What do they tell us about the measures the Aztecs took to try to avoid war? All of the Europeans were not bad, the Spaniards CERTAINLY were. They were the worst sort of bad and made it more difficult on everyone else by the time others started to arrive, as they set the example as to what to expect from them. Hopi didn't " Interpret" the past, they lived it. For the tribes here it isn't "lets go find some bones and figure out what this means", instead it is the histories kept by the many tribes that tell us what happened and where you should go look for the bones instead.

Apocalypto is a good movie. I didn't learn history from it.

How do you think you know all of this even existed? There are no primary sources besides the Spanish ones.

AHA Resource Library - AHA

Explore All Resources Search Resource Type Thematic AHA Topics Geographic K-12 Education Undergraduate Education Graduate Education Professional & Career Resources Academic Department Resources History department chairs are on the front lines of the discipline, defending historians' work and...

www.historians.org

Nearly all of the information about them is from Spanish or Spanish-educated natives. The only non-biased information source is archaeological evidence, which you choose not to take seriously for some reason.

 

[lil devils x]

SNIP

Also consider this, Think of some of what happened to the Aztecs like the " 7 day war" in Israel, where they were surrounded by nations who allied against them and it was either fight or die. Now in the Aztecs case, they actually started the war with one nation, just then they wound up having to fight it against everyone else because the nation they fought was allied with the other nations and shit pretty much hit the fan after that.

 

[Iron]

Also consider this, Think of some of what happened to the Aztecs like the " 7 day war" in Israel, where they were surrounded by nations who allied against them and it was either fight or die. Now in the Aztecs case, they actually started the war with one nation, just then they wound up having to fight it against everyone else because the nation they fought was allied with the other nations and shit pretty much hit the fan after that.

What?

 

[lil devils x]

Apocalypto is a good movie. I didn't learn history from it.

How do you think you know all of this even existed? There are no primary sources besides the Spanish ones.

AHA Resource Library - AHA

Explore All Resources Search Resource Type Thematic AHA Topics Geographic K-12 Education Undergraduate Education Graduate Education Professional & Career Resources Academic Department Resources History department chairs are on the front lines of the discipline, defending historians' work and...

www.historians.org

Nearly all of the information about them is from Spanish or Spanish-educated natives. The only non-biased information source is archaeological evidence, which you choose not to take seriously for some reason.

What is a " primary" source? The tribes historians from the many tribes in Mexico, and Guatemala and surrounding regions? Why would they not start there?

 

[Iron]

What is a " primary" source? The tribes historians from the many tribes in Mexico, and Guatemala and surrounding regions? Why would they not start there?

Please read the link it explains much of this. I PROMISE you, that it explains this better than I could. I'd just copy-paste it.

 

[lil devils x]

What?

The wars between the Aztecs and the other tribes that the archaeologist were referring to? According to our historians, they picked a fight with a tribe and then had to fight all their allies too and it was ugly as hell.

 

[lil devils x]

Please read the link it explains much of this. I PROMISE you, that it explains this better than I could. I'd just copy-paste it.

UGH Conquistadors again. We ALREADY know how they got a hold of the Spanish alphabet, they were taught by the christian friars who were helping them write it. There is " no debate" , The friars taught them to write by having them copying shit for them as well. What is true is that the Spanish destroyed the evidence and only wanted their version of events told. I agree with that, but they didn't just destroy what was written about their ancient beliefs.

The facts of its production raise serious questions about whether the manuscript represents the vision of the vanquished or of the colonizers.

That sums it up.

 

[deleted20220709]

DELETED

 

[lil devils x]

You keep forgetting something here: The Aztecs had a written language. A lot of what we know of the Aztecs are second hand accounts from various Europeans who met them, but we also have first hand accounts from the Aztecs themselves (the legends surrounding Montezuma were recorded first from meetings with him and his courtiers, for example) and their own writings to go on. While there are certainly embellishments in the original European sources, a lot of what they wrote has been corroborated by either the Aztecs themselves or by the writing they left behind. This is how we know how and why the Aztecs practiced human sacrifice. The contemporary "Cortés conquers Mexico in 1521" is a sloppy way of saying that he managed to make the nations there bend knee to Spain. His conquest was vassalization in all but name as the people in those nation far outnumbered the Spaniards there and would do for a few centuries to come. That was a lot of time to collect and record their history.

As for your insistence on the total veracity of oral tradition: Have you ever played Telephone? That's how oral tradition works, with the added problem that the message will not only be distorted by mishearing and misremembering, it will be distorted because as time goes on and you learn other things you will mix new and old information up. Unless you're historians are not really human but some rare breed of half-human/half-computer they will forget, misremember and mix up stories. All it takes is for one "Historian" somewhere to want to paint their tribe in a better light, or be influenced by something they read a decade ago about the depravity of the Conquistadors and suddenly it is all wrong, no better then any other historical fiction. And you will never know, because you can never go back to read what the historians before them knew. That you somehow think these, in scientific terms, utterly unreliable anecdotes are more legit then archaeological findings, written first hand accounts and the composite knowledge of those two is utterly perplexing.

I addressed that in the post above. I am not forgetting it at all. Comparing tribe historians to telephone means you have no idea what a tribe historian is, what is required of them and how serious an offense it was for them to embellish or change the story. It wasn't just one person keeping them in check here, it was hundreds, and not just from one tribe, from many. Not just anyone was even allowed to be a historian. anyone telling the story =\= historian in any way.
It wasn't just treated as a past time like it was in European cultures. It was considered the most serious and important thing one could do.

Aztecs did not even have a word for sacrifice. You do understand that right? That is because they considered it a justified death, like an execution of criminals, not just an offering to the gods. There was more to it than just sacrificing a bunch of people.

 

[Iron]

@lil devils x Anyway - regarding evidence of there NOT being human sacrifice - you provided none. I, on the other hand, have provided evidence of it.
I don't understand why you are so adamant about this. The reason why human sacrifice was so disgusting was because it was wiped out in the old world - the Abrahamic traditions forbade it. That is why they saw it as barbaric. This is why I explained the many examples of human sacrifices in Pagan Europe earlier.

Do you take offense to us calling that tribal culture as 'savage'? Is that why you try to disregard this?

 

[deleted20220709]

DELETED

 

[Iron]

Aztecs did not even have a word for sacrifice. You do understand that right? That is because they considered it a justified death, like an execution of criminals, not just an offering to the gods. There was more to it than just sacrificing a bunch of people.

Source?

 

[lil devils x]

@lil devils x Anyway - regarding evidence of there NOT being human sacrifice - you provided none. I, on the other hand, have provided evidence of it.
I don't understand why you are so adamant about this. The reason why human sacrifice was so disgusting was because it was wiped out in the old world - the Abrahamic traditions forbade it. That is why they saw it as barbaric. This is why I explained the many examples of human sacrifices in Pagan Europe earlier.

Do you take offense to us calling that tribal culture as 'savage'? Is that why you try to disregard this?

What was the difference between the Execution of criminals by the Catholic church and the execution of criminals among the Aztecs. What was the Spanish inquisitions methods of torture? Is that not sacrifice? More have been sacrificed for the church than just about any other religion on earth. You really think that is somehow different?
When I provided you evidence, you just do not like what THAT archaeologist says and say you choose to believe another instead. I see execution of criminals as barbaric too. I see what the church has done as barbaric. I see the conquistadors as barbaric. The problem here is trying to act like what the Aztecs did was somehow different or more wrong because they were not church sanctioned murders instead. Aztec sacrifice is no worse than what the church did to its enemies. Not at all. In fact, remember those conquistadors that fed nursing infants to dogs, yea they claimed to do so in the name of the church. Feeding nursing infants to dogs is somehow more civilized than those barbaric Aztecs who executed prisoners of war.

 

[lil devils x]

Source?

Self-sacrifice

The Aztecs (Mexica) and the practice of ritual self or auto sacrifice

www.mexicolore.co.uk