Trump's Payroll Tax Cut Will Kill Social Security by 2023

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tippy2k2

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Trump has promised to make the deferral indefinite if he wins the election.
I don't know what the fuck this thread is even about at this point as it seems like more than half of it has Jack and Shit to do with social security so I'm sure someone has made this point by now...

Is that really that bad a thing anymore? I don't know anyone my age who expects social security to actually still exist by the time we might get to retire so having it crash and burn now might let us use that extra money we're "investing" in our social security (in quotes cause again, I don't expect to see it again) in our own individual 401ks. I admit I'm pretty ignorant of how SS works (since no one expects it to exist when I hit that age, I'm planning on it not existing and am acting accordingly in my future plans).

While yeah, it hurts people now who are currently reliant on it, SOMEONE is getting the shit end of the stick at some point. Social Security as a program seems to be unstable as hell so it seems like either you put a bullet in it as a failed experiment (and then can plan out how to ease out of it since it's in your control) or you wait until the program collapses on itself and then we're in PANIK! mode trying to figure out what to do now...
 

lil devils x

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I don't know what the fuck this thread is even about at this point as it seems like more than half of it has Jack and Shit to do with social security so I'm sure someone has made this point by now...

Is that really that bad a thing anymore? I don't know anyone my age who expects social security to actually still exist by the time we might get to retire so having it crash and burn now might let us use that extra money we're "investing" in our social security (in quotes cause again, I don't expect to see it again) in our own individual 401ks. I admit I'm pretty ignorant of how SS works (since no one expects it to exist when I hit that age, I'm planning on it not existing and am acting accordingly in my future plans).

While yeah, it hurts people now who are currently reliant on it, SOMEONE is getting the shit end of the stick at some point. Social Security as a program seems to be unstable as hell so it seems like either you put a bullet in it as a failed experiment (and then can plan out how to ease out of it since it's in your control) or you wait until the program collapses on itself and then we're in PANIK! mode trying to figure out what to do now...
No one is supposed to be getting " the shit end" That is the point. and it actually isn't unstable at all.


Demcorats have no intention of letting Social security die before you get there, or ever for that matter. Republicans have been pushing to destroy it because they would rather just let the people die instead. The idea that social security should disappear at all will mean we go back to what happened before, but worse because it is even more difficult to live now than it was then. Mass starvation and poverty. Congress can allocate funding as needed as they are required to do, but actually not having the individuals pay in means that they will be hit much harder on those individuals when they become too old to work and have nothing else to fall back on. It is the Republicans that have you convinced it is going away because they want it to go away. That is a horrible thing and the worst possible time because if it is not there for Gen X and millennial's, we have nothing else for them. Right now they can count on getting about 2k a month to pay bills with and provide a roof over their heads through social security they are owed that they already paid in. Without that they have no roof no ability to pay bills. Neither millennial's or gen X have any savings due to financial crisis after financial crisis wiping it all out repeatedly. They will have nothing, and no jobs available. So what then?

What you not paying enough in does is only hurts YOU because then you have less credits to qualify for larger monthly payments. The more you pay in, the more you get back. Trump trying to make the program break all together is to hurt everyone depending on it because the wealthy are just assholes like that. By delaying your payments now, he wants you to have smaller paychecks next year. If you don't pay in at all, you get nothing when you have already exhausted your savings between the ages of 50 and retirement as most people are forced to do so when you get to retirement, you will have nothing to pay your bills with.

That was why they just needed to give you relief right now instead of screwing with your retirement. He hates the program because he hates the poor.


Trump's entire plan here is to take away ALL help for the poor and give them nothing as an alternative. That is it.
 
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Specter Von Baren

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There were differences native Americans had with other tribes that we didn't have with Europeans as well. That doesn't somehow make it work any better or any worse. We lived in apartments, most tribes here didn't even believe in staying in one place. We had completely different lifestyles and beliefs. Europeans have more in common with each other than the Native American tribes do with one another. Comparing native american tribes to one another is like comparing people who live in cities to people who live in tents in forests to people who live on the water.. and all having different religions, lifestyles, ethnicity.. It really is that different.

People living in apartments have more common with people living in apartments than they do with people living in tents in the forest. LOL

Your idea that you have to be of one culture, religion, ethnicity, ect isn't remotely true.
I don't understand why you have such a hard time accepting the idea then that the Aztec people went down a different path than your own tribe after they parted ways long ago. If you wish to champion the good of the native people's then I would think talking about your own tribe and it's neighbors who you have much more knowledge about would be much more effective for that.
 

stroopwafel

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We don't have a nation on earth that is made up entirely of people who all have similar core values.
Bullshit. Separation of church and state, equality of men and women, women's rights, equality under law, civil liberties, individual freedom, freedom of religion, democracy, separation of powers; those are core values that are shared by the vast majority of Europeans except muslims because those values contradict their islamic beliefs.
 

lil devils x

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I don't understand why you have such a hard time accepting the idea then that the Aztec people went down a different path than your own tribe after they parted ways long ago. If you wish to champion the good of the native people's then I would think talking about your own tribe and it's neighbors who you have much more knowledge about would be much more effective for that.
Aztec are nothing like my tribe. I think that was made abundantly clear. In fact I stated:
The idea that you think the Aztecs are " my own" is part of the problem. You still think all "Native Americans are the same with minor differences" when that is like saying the Swedish people and the Himba are the same with minor differences
That is about as much alike as our tribes are. HAHA!
 

lil devils x

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Bullshit. Separation of church and state, equality of men and women, women's rights, equality under law, civil liberties, individual freedom, freedom of religion, democracy, separation of powers; those are core values that are shared by the vast majority of Europeans except muslims because those values contradict their islamic beliefs.
Which nation are you talking about here exactly?The current far right doesn't support those things either. I know plenty of Muslims here that get along fine with those beliefs. Quit being such an Islamophobe. You claiming they don't get along does not make them not get along. Some of my favorite physicians I have worked with are Muslims.
 

stroopwafel

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Which nation are you talking about here exactly?The current far right doesn't support those things either. I know plenty of Muslims here that get along fine with those beliefs. Quit being such an Islamophobe.
'Getting along fine' when you're not in the majority is different then believing in them. Name one, just one, islamic country that shares those values. Oh wait, you can't.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Aztec are nothing like my tribe. I think that was made abundantly clear. In fact I stated:

That is about as much alike as our tribes are. HAHA!
But... That's my point.

Edit: To extrapolate: What I meant when I said they "went down a different path" is that they went down a violent one as apposed to your own tribe's peaceful one.
 

lil devils x

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I don't know what the fuck this thread is even about at this point as it seems like more than half of it has Jack and Shit to do with social security so I'm sure someone has made this point by now...

Is that really that bad a thing anymore? I don't know anyone my age who expects social security to actually still exist by the time we might get to retire so having it crash and burn now might let us use that extra money we're "investing" in our social security (in quotes cause again, I don't expect to see it again) in our own individual 401ks. I admit I'm pretty ignorant of how SS works (since no one expects it to exist when I hit that age, I'm planning on it not existing and am acting accordingly in my future plans).

While yeah, it hurts people now who are currently reliant on it, SOMEONE is getting the shit end of the stick at some point. Social Security as a program seems to be unstable as hell so it seems like either you put a bullet in it as a failed experiment (and then can plan out how to ease out of it since it's in your control) or you wait until the program collapses on itself and then we're in PANIK! mode trying to figure out what to do now...
ALSO, for some reason it wouldn't allow me to edit the other post:

Adding to the above article Trump is trying to make the nonsense that the GOP has been pushing look like it is coming true by depleting the fund, even temporarily, it allows them to start yelling about what they mentioned in the Forbes article above again in order to manipulate people. It is all a manipulation tactic. If we lose Social security, we will not be getting anything better, we will have nothing at all because the only way we will lose it is if we allow the GOP to intentionally break it. In order for the GOP to break it that means they will have control to do so and that means they are not replacing it. The democrats can fix the structural problems, which is a much better alternative to losing it all together.
 

lil devils x

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'Getting along fine' when you're not in the majority is different then believing in them. Name one, just one, islamic country that shares those values. Oh wait, you can't.
That is because to be an Islamic country you don't have separation of church and state.You can't be a christian nation and have separation between church and state either. That is what happens when you have a nation formed on the basis of religion. But that is also why people from Muslim nations sometimes leave even if they are Muslim. 2 of the female physicians I work with are both Muslim, for example, they wear what they want to wear and work alongside men. They have short hair and do not wear a hijab. They could not do this in nations controlled by religion. The same is said of Orthodox Jewish communities as well, and Southern Baptists. Women are not allowed to wear what they want and work alongside men in numerous religions, not just Islam. I wouldn't want to live in any nation controlled by religion, not just one's controlled by Islam. Singling them out when this applies to all Abrahamic faiths isn't very accurate.

 

stroopwafel

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That is because to be an Islamic country you don't have separation of church and state.You can't be a christian nation and have separation between church and state either. That is what happens when you have a nation formed on the basis of religion. But that is also why people from Muslim nations sometimes leave even if they are Muslim. 2 of the female physicians I work with are both Muslim, for example, they wear what they want to wear and work alongside men. They have short hair and do not wear a hijab. They could not do this in nations controlled by religion. The same is said of Orthodox Jewish communities as well, and Southern Baptists. Women are not allowed to wear what they want and work alongside men in numerous religions, not just Islam. I wouldn't want to live in any nation controlled by religion, not just one's controlled by Islam. Singling them out when this applies to all Abrahamic faiths isn't very accurate.

Fine, you can't name even one islamic country that shares those values then. Just like I expected. By your own example then, name one, just one, christian nation that doesn't share those enlightened values. Oh wait, you can't either! Why is that? Maybe because christianity is no longer stuck in the Dark Ages? Exactly because of the enlightened values that have made those countries largely secular? Something that isn't even possible with your beloved islam?

But please keep providing some fringe anecdotal news interviews to support your argument.
 

lil devils x

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Fine, you can't name even one islamic country that shares those values then. Just like I expected. By your own example then, name one, just one, christian nation that doesn't share those enlightened values. Oh wait, you can't either! Why is that? Maybe because christianity is no longer stuck in the Dark Ages? Exactly because of the enlightened values that have made those countries largely secular? Something that isn't even possible with your beloved islam?

But please keep providing some fringe anecdotal news interviews to support your argument.
The US no longer has separation of church and state.
 

lil devils x

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You honestly try to make that argument without serious hyperbole?
Thought it was pretty much so well known by now it wasn't required anymore. We lost that battle long ago.


Oh and there was the whole thing about the US government literally kidnapping kids and forcing us to go to abusive religious schools where they raped, abused and beat a ton of kids.. How can the US force kids to go to a christian school where they tie you to chairs and " beat the devil out of you" if it isn't a christian nation?
 

crimson5pheonix

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I don't know what the fuck this thread is even about at this point as it seems like more than half of it has Jack and Shit to do with social security so I'm sure someone has made this point by now...

Is that really that bad a thing anymore? I don't know anyone my age who expects social security to actually still exist by the time we might get to retire so having it crash and burn now might let us use that extra money we're "investing" in our social security (in quotes cause again, I don't expect to see it again) in our own individual 401ks. I admit I'm pretty ignorant of how SS works (since no one expects it to exist when I hit that age, I'm planning on it not existing and am acting accordingly in my future plans).

While yeah, it hurts people now who are currently reliant on it, SOMEONE is getting the shit end of the stick at some point. Social Security as a program seems to be unstable as hell so it seems like either you put a bullet in it as a failed experiment (and then can plan out how to ease out of it since it's in your control) or you wait until the program collapses on itself and then we're in PANIK! mode trying to figure out what to do now...
I have been told it's callous to let it expire now rather than later, so you should vote Biden.
 

lil devils x

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I have been told it's callous to let it expire now rather than later, so you should vote Biden.
The objective is to fix it and NEVER let it expire. so when you get there and your kids get there and their kids get there it is there for them too. We need to fix it, lower the age and increase the payouts. They should have never been able to use it as a slush fund in the first place and that should be corrected. Hell if worked out properly, we could expand this to UBI like they want to expand medicare to be M4A. XD
 

Agema

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You honestly try to make that argument without serious hyperbole?
The UK definitely doesn't have separation of church and state - it's got an official state religion. Although it is in practice pretty secular. A quick look around various countries (see Gethsemani's post) would quickly reveal that the influence of religion upon the state is far more substantial in many Christian countries than you suppose.

* * *

What you're really arguing is about a degree of development in cultural and societal attitudes. "Christianity" hasn't so much gone through the enlightenment as Europe has - and by extension some of its ex-colonies also. Plenty of African countries are Christian, and show very little presence of Enlightenment values. Lots of Christian, ex-Soviet states have been backsliding on democracy and some are even unrecognisably democratic.

The Enlightenment was basically the entire 18th century - 100 years of ideas and social development. And then after that 1800 was hardly the living, breathing embodiment of secular, humanistic ideals, and 1900 left a lot to be desired. France deposed its monarch and became a republic in ~1790, and took another 80 years before democracy finally stuck. It took literally centuries for people to gradually adapt. Think on it this way: people are brought up with ideals as children, and these stick with them to a large degree for the next 50-60 years of life. That's the time frame we need to think about. Widespread societal change in a country is usually the work of generations. Why on earth would anyone think the Islamic world, or Africa, or other places were magically going to turn into secular, liberal democracies in a few decades?

If we compare for instance Turkey and the ex-Soviet states, support for secularism is very high (~80%+), especially compared to the Arab states. Of course it is. They had 100 years of society bringing them up with under secularism. Likewise Western Muslims, despite mostly originating from states without a culture of secularism, show vastly higher support for secularism than the countries they or their ancestors came from. Of course they do, they've been brought up with secularism. As the years roll on, they'll become even more secular. The people who say "Islam is incompatible with Enlightenment values" are simply people who haven't waited long enough to see it finish, and refuse to accept the evidence of the process occurring right in front of their eyes. Like there's a glass gradually filling up, they see see it around the half way point and say "nope, still empty".
 
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