Biden clenches the nomination.

[Worgen]

Electing Republicans (D) is your desired goal? Is a party of them not enough?

No, but I like that the party isn't just one thing, that its members are willing to go against the grain at times. Its annoying when it happens to things I am in favor of but its handy for things I don't. Its why don't think that if the democrats totally took over the electorate that we would be in big trouble like we would with the republicans.

 

[Houseman]

You want me to suffer for your own selfish interests.

So if someone doesn't vote the way you want them to, they don't care about you, and are also straight and white?

I'm not voting the way you want me to. I'm also black. What does that mean?

 

[crimson5pheonix]

No, but I like that the party isn't just one thing, that its members are willing to go against the grain at times. Its annoying when it happens to things I am in favor of but its handy for things I don't. Its why don't think that if the democrats totally took over the electorate that we would be in big trouble like we would with the republicans.

Alright, I can agree that not being in lockstep can be good, sometimes a group can go overboard in a direction.

 

[fOx]

I am an LGBT person who is tired of being oppressed for being LGBT. You are the person saying I deserved to be shat on for another 4 years cause you want to be spiteful. You want to let me continue to suffer so you can point at my suffering and say 'Told you so' to the only people doing anything to stop it. You want me to suffer for your own selfish interests. YOU are the white moderate willing to let black people suffer and die to prove a point at no expense to yourself.

You do not care about me.

: Privileged straight white men tell the blacks, women and LGBT people we deserve to suffer.

It is no coincidence that I, lildevil and Obsidian Jones are on the opposing side to those who claim to support Bernie but are accepting of Trump.

I am black

Is this a joke?!

Edit: Also, as I think I've mentioned, I don't support trump. I only hope that his existence will push the country further left. Which, as I've mentioned, is not that alien of an idea in Marxist Leninist circles. There are well respect marxist thinkers who are of the same opinion. I already posted Zizek.

 

[Thaluikhain]

"We need to be realistic" is the rallying cry of the moderate. I think there's a great quote about this somewhere.

"We need to be realistic when fighting for our rights" is not the same as "You need to be realistic when fighting for your rights". Unlike the white conservatives MLK was condemning, Saelune (amongst others) has a personal stake in this.

 

[fOx]

"We need to be realistic when fighting for our rights" is not the same as "You need to be realistic when fighting for your rights". Unlike the white conservatives MLK was condemning, Saelune (amongst others) has a personal stake in this.

And me and houseman don't? Saelune was plenty quick to condemn the rest of us.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

"We need to be realistic when fighting for our rights" is not the same as "You need to be realistic when fighting for your rights". Unlike the white conservatives MLK was condemning, Saelune (amongst others) has a personal stake in this.

What Fox said, I've had a personal stake in this my whole life, that's why I'm not going to listen to "it's not the right time for it".

 

[fOx]

See, the difference here is that, unlike saelune, I don't feel the need to speak for others. I'm not going tell saelune how to think or feel. I would appreciate it if she didn't attempt to speak to my experiance.

 

[Thaluikhain]

And me and houseman don't? Saelune was plenty quick to condemn the rest of us.

What Fox said, I've had a personal stake in this my whole life, that's why I'm not going to listen to "it's not the right time for it".

I'm not saying that you (or others don't). Both you and Saelune have a stake in this, obviously. But the MLK example is of a situation where the people he was condemning did not, so the analogy doesn't work.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

I'm not saying that you (or others don't). Both you and Saelune have a stake in this, obviously. But the MLK example is of a situation where the people he was condemning did not, so the analogy doesn't work.

I mean, Saelune literally said that, that now is not the time to improve things.

 

[Dreiko]

I'll repeat myself but this "it's not time to improve things right now, you have all these bad things to worry about!" is not a sales pitch, it's a ransom note. At some point we will just have to shoot the hostage and get things done for the good of society because otherwise this enables people to keep taking hostages and we will never improve things.

Not sure the time is now but it's definitely getting there and the more you put it off the worse it'll end up being in the end.

 

[deleted20220709]

DELETED

 

[Dreiko]

Absolutely. The US is in dire need of drastic reform, the Covid-19 crisis shows how terrible your healthcare system is if nothing else. However, as I said earlier in this thread, things need to be done gradual in the USA. Bernie's policies are probably the best for the USA long term, but the US populace or political system isn't in a place where they are ready to accept those policies yet. Biden is unlikely to lay any groundwork for a left turn in the democrats, but he's probably the best candidate to hoover up centrist voters in an election against Trump. And right now, the more important part is making sure Trump doesn't get four more years of making the USA look like a farce.

That argument won't hold water in four years, when Trump is gone one way or the other, but for now you probably need to plug that gaping hole in the roof instead of starting to tear down inner walls to totally renovate the interior of your house.

There's another MLK quote somewhere about "the intoxicating drug of gradualism" or something along those lines.

It doesn't do anything because by the time you will really pull up your sleeves and get to work the country will be sick of you and Trump mk2 will take advantage.

 

[fOx]

Absolutely. The US is in dire need of drastic reform, the Covid-19 crisis shows how terrible your healthcare system is if nothing else. However, as I said earlier in this thread, things need to be done gradual in the USA. Bernie's policies are probably the best for the USA long term, but the US populace or political system isn't in a place where they are ready to accept those policies yet. Biden is unlikely to lay any groundwork for a left turn in the democrats, but he's probably the best candidate to hoover up centrist voters in an election against Trump. And right now, the more important part is making sure Trump doesn't get four more years of making the USA look like a farce.

That argument won't hold water in four years, when Trump is gone one way or the other, but for now you probably need to plug that gaping hole in the roof instead of starting to tear down inner walls to totally renovate the interior of your house.

The earth is literally on fire

https://www.geek.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/this-is-fine-meme-625x350.jpg

 

[deleted20220709]

DELETED

 

[Saelune]

I mean, Saelune literally said that, that now is not the time to improve things.

Literally is a strong word.

Citation needed where I literally said that.

 

[fOx]

Literally is a strong word.

Citation needed where I literally said that.

"ITT: Privileged straight white men tell the blacks, women and LGBT people we deserve to suffer. "

I mean, to be fair, those in glass houses...

 

[Agema]

Yeah, we can quote famous people out of context all day long, there's one for pretty much everything. It doesn't change the fact that the US voter base (or the lobbyists with the money) are not ready for Bernie style social democracy in America. Trying to bring that as your platform to the presidential election would only serve up a decisive win for the Republicans and four more years of Trump. You need to work the electorate via lobbying for years, maybe decades prior to an election if you want Bernie style social democracy in the USA. It can be done, but it can't be done in the half a year that's left to the 2020 election and it is very unlikely you can affect a meaningful change in public opinion in time for 2024.

And yet Bernie was actually polling as strongly as Biden against Trump.

I think a lot of voters don't look that hard at policy. That or they don't worry about it too much, because they assume gridlock and wider party policies will restrict what any president will end up doing. From some sources I read, the big concern for the Democratic Party was that voters might back Bernie for the WH, but compensate by being more likely to back Republicans in Congressional races to limit his power. This then is a huge concern, because it risks a repeat of 2016 where a bad day at the presidential polls or the electoral college leaves Republicans in control of both the executive and the legislature.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Literally is a strong word.

Citation needed where I literally said that.

Reality is not perfect, it sucks, but if we want things to be better at all, we need to be realistic.

Said as an attack against arguing for left wing candidates, and in defense of electing Republicans (D).

 

[tstorm823]

You see, I keep people throwing around the words "good" and "bad." I've probably thoughtlessly thrown the terms around myself. But the reality is that good and bad are moral concepts with no backing. They don't exist. For most people, "good" and "evil" are just shorthands for "beneficial to me, personally," and "non beneficial to me, personally." We need to do away with the concept of morality altogether, and move towards an egoistic understanding of the world.

We can't have a societal structure that supports the few at the expense of the many. It's untenable. And while I don't blame the wealthy for supporting their own rational self interest by supporting capitalism, they can hardly be surprised when the working class do the same.

Could you find the part of the Bible for me where Jesus says "Toss aside morality as a concept, it doesn't exist. Always be cynical!"