There is a whole host of things that are more important than that. They are not on the ballot if the choice is Biden vs. Trump.
Biden clenches the nomination.
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So was his plan A, he got further than anyone thought possible. His plan was to take over the democratic party without even being a democrat. Most people didn't think he could even get his foot in the door and he accomplished so much more than that, he changed the actual platform, he changed policy and was able to get people elected to seats they did not think were possible. Say what you will about doing the impossible, his efforts have definitely paid off. IF he hadn't done what he has already, no one would be talking about medicare for all at all right now, let alone having a national discussion on it. Just being elected president isn't the goal here, the goal is to be able to enact change, and he has been getting that done. Him running for president was more important to drawing attention to these things even moreso than actually winning. Even if Bernie had won, we would still have to get congress to act, and then we would have to find a replacement for his seat in congress and hope they win too on top of trying to get his bills written and passed. He has more support than he ever has for his policies, and that was a feat in itself. The current pandemic exposing how bad US systems are in dire need of help will hopefully force changes to happen faster and push people's hands to act this time.
We have to make sure dems win more seats in congress rather than lose them in order for this to get done either way, at least with us not having to worry about Bernie's seat as well, that is one less seat we have to worry about right now. The focus has to be on making sure dems get a majority of congress or it doesn't matter who is in the white house in the end.
Yes they are on the ballot, because regardless of what comes out of Biden's mouth, if progressives in congress can get the bills to his desk he will sign them at the end of the day. Even though he does not champion progressive ideals, he will also not stop them if they can manage to get the needed momentum on the ground. IF Trump wins, we lose it all.
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Actually Biden is giving progressives one of the best ins to the democratic party we have ever gotten.
Biden campaign reaches deal to allow Bernie Sanders to retain hundreds of delegates, maintain influence over party platform at the convention
The campaigns of former Vice President Joe Biden and Sen. Bernie Sanders reached a deal that allows the progressive stalwart to keep delegates he would have forfeited.
abcnews.go.com
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Those delegates already belonged to sanders. Its silly to think that we should be grateful that he gets to keep what was already his. This isn't charity. Biden knows that he'll lose support if he burns all his bridges.
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Sanders is using those delegate as leverage to change the actual Democratic platform. Bernie is now working with Biden to try and get more of Bernie's policies implemented. Though tbh, we should let Biden say whatever he has to say to get conservatives to vote for him and win the conservative districts in the general election, then go on to pass progressive agenda regardless. I don't think Bernie should push for the changes yet, he should wait and do that after Biden's elected so that the GOP's "socialist" scaremongering they are doing so heavily now in conservative districts ( I have seen them on TV already and they are being spread on facebook right now in my community) will backfire due to Biden being so moderate. I would rather just allow Biden to get the disenfranchised conservative votes then he can pass progressive agenda after the fact. He already has the endorsement of a few republican groups, we need to build on that with people who are pissed at Trump being a nutjob and use it to our advantage.
At the same time, Bernie needs to be focusing on congressional elections and gaining as much ground as we can there so we can get the bills to Biden's desk to begin with.
i understand how it works. people said the same thing about super delegates. im saying it shouldn't work that way.
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Then you need to start going to different states and asking them to change it.
Strawmen, moved goal posts and outright lying.
You have nothing.
Just being gay used to be considered a mental illness. Having gay sex used to be illegal. When those things changed, we did not get gay marriage, that came later. Should we have said 'No, if we don't also get gay marriage, then we should not even bother removing homosexuality from the list of mental illnesses, and legalizing gay sex'?
I wish everything could all be fixed in one go, but it can't. It takes time, it takes stages, it takes drafts and prototypes. It takes steps. Steps you do not want to take, because you just want to jump to the last without being concerned with just drowning in the river.
Not a single one of those. I outright quoted you using a conservative dog whistle. And using it in defense of electing a Republican, you are the white moderate, my statement stands and it is correct.
If I wanted to jump to the last step, I wouldn't be arguing for Bernie. He's the first step, the bare minimum necessary to get anything done.
We still have Bernie, writing bills and trying to get them passed so he can have Biden sign them... Why is it that Bernie realizes that is what is most important here, but you don't? It isn't like Biden wouldn't sign the bills if Bernie got them to his desk. The bare minimum is a democrat in the white house and getting a democrat majority in the senate so we even have that option. If we do not get that, then Bernie can't do anything to help.
Because I don't believe Biden would sign them, I also have my doubts if a 'vote blue no matter who' mentality infects the Democrats because then we'll stop getting progressive dems almost entirely. The entire impetus behind the push is so dems don't have to cater to progressives, they want to become the Republican party. Both in policy, and in voting.
As for Biden himself, there is some odd 50 years of information to draw on to believe Biden is not even remotely progressive and won't support progressive policies. M4A for example, last I heard in this very primary is that he wouldn't sign it if it came in front of him. This is going to be a repeat of Obama where Biden asks his corporate donors to pick his cabinet and nothing progressive will get done, apart from an occasional purely social policy like restrooms or something. Something that has no monetary impact on the rich.
So let me get this straight, you think that we are going to suddenly stop getting progressives to challenge democrat seats and people are just going to give up on progressive issues when they finally have a chance to actually do something about it? You think Biden is going to veto a bill from his own party? Dem's don't want to " become republicans" that is silly to even suggest. , they just want to get some republicans to vote for them so they can get control over both the white house and congress, but their platform is the most progressive they have had in our lifetime regardless. Even Biden's platform here is still more progressive than we have ever had. I can't imagine the mental gymnastics you have to do to twist Democrats winning the white house and congress into being somehow worse for Bernie than Trump winning. Can you imagine what Bernie would say to you and the expression on his face if you tried to tell him that? Seriously. He knows what he is doing here, if you trust him to be President, then you should trust his plan to get his plans enacted as well.
EDIT: and no, it is not going to be a repeat of Obama, the makeup of congress is different this time around and we have different issues that are going to be addressed.
Those 'mental gymnastics' are 'the Obama years'. This has happened before.
Hold on
This has happened before.
This has happened before.
This has happened before.
This has happened before.
I've had to say this a dozen times now, I keep having to say this over and over again, Obama pushed the party right, he was a right wing warmonger, barely discernible from a Republican. And Biden is to the right of him. He was picked as Obama's running mate to catch the old racist white vote that didn't want a black man in office. Biden's entire image, for decades, is that he's a hyper conservative Democrat, there to stop the dems from doing anything progressive.
And he is the perfect icon of the modern dem party, because they do want to stomp out progressivism, this should be obvious with 2016 and 2020, I shouldn't have to say this, it's self-evident at this point. The democrat party exists now to spoil progressives out of voting, and if you vote blue no matter who, you're only going to vote for who the DNC approves, and they don't approve progressives.
And before you say that's ridiculous, I want to point out you're planning on voting for Joe "Roe v Wade went too far" Biden. Joe "I'd veto M4A" Biden. Joe "Bankruptcy doesn't get rid of student debt anymore" Biden. I could go on.
I'm not voting for that, that's what his voting record looks like. Add on top of that that he's a rapist, it's gone, done, he's not my candidate, he doesn't represent me. He doesn't come close. And it's his stated position that he would fight against me. He's an opponent just as much as the Republicans are.
SO passing the ACA subsidies and medicaid expansion that has provided access to medicine and treatment to millions of sick and poor was BARELY discernible from a republican?! Of course there are too many loopholes, but even in Republican states like Texas that rejected the medicaid expansions, we still were able to work around that through the subsides to provide many people who would have otherwise died with free healthcare. That is why Republicans have been working so hard to repeal it and have been illegally holding and delaying subsidy payments under Trump and have had to be ordered by the courts to get them to comply:
Supreme Court rules insurers owed $12 billion in unpaid subsidies - MedCity News
The Supreme Court ruled on Monday that the federal government must pay insurers $12 billion in risk corridor payments. The Affordable Care Act carved out the risk corridor program in 2014 to limit insurers’ profits and losses while creating the exchanges.
medcitynews.com
Biden has already began to soften on medicare and student loans, he isn't going to veto it if they can get it through congress. We would still have the same obstacles to getting it passed even if we had Bernie or Warren as president, we have to get it through congress first:
Biden Inches Toward Sanders on Health Care, Student Loans
But on health care in particular, Biden’s revised plan doesn’t do much for those about to get hammered with private-health-insurance costs.
nymag.com
We only have two things that can happen here, 1) we vote for Biden and he wins and less people will suffer and die because he will veto any attempt to repeal the ACA, cut medicare and medicaid, food stamps or unemployment or 2) We don't vote for Biden and Trump wins and more people die because Trump will force the DOJ to move forward on their case to repeal ACA, will make further cuts to Medicaid, food stamps and unemployment. Those are our only two options here. Nothing comes of this for the better, Bernie isn't going to be able to do anything about that happening if Trump wins.
These are pretty well guaranteed to happen if Trump wins, Trump is the one holding the gun to our heads here, not Biden:
Trump has delayed the case against the ACA until after the election:
Trump administration and GOP-led states ask Supreme Court to hold off on deciding Obamacare's fate | CNN Politics
The Trump administration and Republican-led states told the Supreme Court on Monday that it should not step in at this time to consider the fate of the Affordable Care Act.
www.cnn.com
Trump Backs Off Tougher Food Stamp Work Rules for Now (Published 2020)
Under heavy criticism for pressing for food stamp cuts during an economic meltdown, the Trump administration now says it will hold off during the national emergency.
Trump budget calls for cutting Medicaid, ACA by about $1 trillion
President Trump’s proposed budget includes about $1 trillion in cuts to Medicaid and the Affordable Care Act over a decade, analysts said.The budget released Monday includes $844 billion over 10 ye…
thehill.com
Lindsey Graham Vows To Cut Off Unemployment Benefits To The Jobless
Lindsey Graham (R-SC) vowed that unemployment benefits won't be extended by the Republican Senate majority no matter the status of the coronavirus pandemic.
www.politicususa.com
Trump administration cuts to Social Security disability benefits among the cruelest
U.S. already has among strictest disability benefits eligibility standards in the world, writes Rebecca Vallas with the Center for American Progress
www.usatoday.com
This isn't " hypothetical here". they already have the ball rolling all that has to happen is a republican win here. That is all.
I am not " posting a bunch of bad shat republicans have done in the past", I am showing you what they are doing as we speak and what their actual plans are for when they win. We are dealing with the present, not in the past. What happens here is all of our responsibility to stop, not just " those dems who did things I don't like".
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I'd post another couple dozen links about how Obama screwed you, me, anyone who's not white, how ACA failed on most every level, how he cut Medicaid, food stamps, and social security, and how Biden is worse, but you've already said you don't care about all the bad he's done. You don't care that on balance Obama was a terrible president who pushed further right than Bush. You don't care that Biden is lying to you right now.SO passing the ACA subsidies and medicaid expansion that has provided access to medicine and treatment to millions of sick and poor was BARELY discernible from a republican?! Of course there are too many loopholes, but even in Republican states like Texas that rejected the medicaid expansions, we still were able to work around that through the subsides to provide many people who would have otherwise died with free healthcare. That is why Republicans have been working so hard to repeal it and have been illegally holding and delaying subsidy payments under Trump and have had to be ordered by the courts to get them to comply:
Those subsides are what have been providing free healthcare to the poor. The republicans have been refusing to comply with the law.Supreme Court rules insurers owed $12 billion in unpaid subsidies - MedCity News
The Supreme Court ruled on Monday that the federal government must pay insurers $12 billion in risk corridor payments. The Affordable Care Act carved out the risk corridor program in 2014 to limit insurers’ profits and losses while creating the exchanges.
Biden has already began to soften on medicare and student loans, he isn't going to veto it if they can get it through congress. We would still have the same obstacles to getting it passed even if we had Bernie or Warren as president, we have to get it through congress first:
If congress gets it passed, there is no way in hell he would veto it. Besides, the important part here is making sure everyone has access to the treatment they need when they need it, whether that is by expanding the ACA or through Medicare isn't what is important here. It is all about how many lives can we save the fastest?Biden Inches Toward Sanders on Health Care, Student Loans
But on health care in particular, Biden’s revised plan doesn’t do much for those about to get hammered with private-health-insurance costs.
We only have two things that can happen here, 1) we vote for Biden and he wins and less people will suffer and die because he will veto any attempt to repeal the ACA, cut medicare and medicaid, food stamps or unemployment or 2) We don't vote for Biden and Trump wins and more people die because Trump will force the DOJ to move forward on their case to repeal ACA, will make further cuts to Medicaid, food stamps and unemployment. Those are our only two options here. Nothing comes of this for the better, Bernie isn't going to be able to do anything about that happening if Trump wins.
These are pretty well guaranteed to happen if Trump wins, Trump is the one holding the gun to our heads here, not Biden:
Trump has delayed the case against the ACA until after the election:
Delayed food stamp cuts until after the election:Trump administration and GOP-led states ask Supreme Court to hold off on deciding Obamacare's fate | CNN Politics
The Trump administration and Republican-led states told the Supreme Court on Monday that it should not step in at this time to consider the fate of the Affordable Care Act.
Cuts to medicaid and ACA care for the poor:Trump Backs Off Tougher Food Stamp Work Rules for Now (Published 2020)
Under heavy criticism for pressing for food stamp cuts during an economic meltdown, the Trump administration now says it will hold off during the national emergency.www.nytimes.com
Trump budget calls for cutting Medicaid, ACA by about $1 trillion
President Trump’s proposed budget includes about $1 trillion in cuts to Medicaid and the Affordable Care Act over a decade, analysts said.The budget released Monday includes $844 billion over 10 ye…Lindsey Graham Vows To Cut Off Unemployment Benefits To The Jobless
Lindsey Graham (R-SC) vowed that unemployment benefits won't be extended by the Republican Senate majority no matter the status of the coronavirus pandemic.Trump administration cuts to Social Security disability benefits among the cruelest
U.S. already has among strictest disability benefits eligibility standards in the world, writes Rebecca Vallas with the Center for American Progresswww.usatoday.com
This isn't " hypothetical here". they already have the ball rolling all that has to happen is a republican win here. That is all.
I am not " posting a bunch of bad shat republicans have done in the past", I am showing you what they are doing as we speak and what their actual plans are for when they win. We are dealing with the present, not in the past.
So I don't see a reason to respond with anything more than, "Biden does not represent me, and that's the only reason anyone needs to refuse support for a candidate".
What happens here is all of our responsibility to stop, not just " those dems who did things I don't like". Why is the democrats that you do not support responsibility to stop this from happening if you can't be bothered to do so as well? How is it someone else's fault to stop our citizens from dying if you too are willing to ignore what is happening? So in the end whose responsibility is it if we all just decide, "they do not represent my beliefs so I am just going to not be helpful at all."
For me, I understand that it is just as much my fault as it is Biden's as well if I do nothing and allow the republicans to do what they have promised, and trying to do something after we allow them to have control is really just doing nothing at that point. In the end, those who do nothing are just as responsible for these things happening as those who voted for republicans in the first place.
And yea posting a bunch of links about the past isn't really going to help us stop what is happening as we speak. The links I just provided you are what is happening NOW. We can't do anything about the past, but we can change this.
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