Thoughts on California's Prop 22

[Saint of M]

This i\nvolved s the independent contractors tht do driving stuff such as driving people place to place such as with lyft and others who deliver food such as grub hub.

The yes and no vote on Ballotpedia says

California Proposition 22, App-Based Drivers as Contractors and Labor Policies Initiative (2020)

Ballotpedia: The Encyclopedia of American Politics

ballotpedia.org

A "yes" vote supports this ballot initiative to define app-based transportation (rideshare) and delivery drivers as independent contractors and adopt labor and wage policies specific to app-based drivers and companies.

A "no" vote opposes this ballot initiative, meaning California Assembly Bill 5 (2019) could be used to decide whether app-based drivers are employees or independent contractors.

What this entails is these contractors would be put through a three part test: "1) the worker is free from the hiring company's control and direction in the performance of work; (2) the worker is doing work that is outside the company's usual course of business; and (3) the worker is engaged in an established trade, occupation, or business of the same nature as the work performed."

Among other things that will add new requirements to both the companies and the drivers they "employ." Excamples that you could see is limit employees from working more than 12hrs in a 24 hour period, require to provide healthcare to drivers that work more than 25hours a week, accident insurance up to a million bucks, dissabilit payments up to 66% of the driver's average wages, have corporatons develop anti discrimination and anti sexual harrasment polacies.

Supporters include California's State Sheriff Department DoorDash, Lyft,uber, California Chamber of Commerce and others.

They argue: Keeps drivers earning money on their terms,

Opposition includes Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, California Labor Federation, California State Council of Laborers and more.

THeir argument is that these "billion dollar" companies still refuse to give employees the basics they need like a minimum wage, social security and healthcare; keep these companies from playing by the same rules every other corporation in the state has to follow, that this is another way for them to be an out.

Anyone know more about this, able to tranlate the fine print into something clearer, and stance on it.?

 

[lil devils x]

Yea, after having many " contract labor" family members, and seen what has happened in regards to healthcare access and other benefits, I oppose " contract labor" in most settings, so I would definitely oppose defining them as contract labor. When my Dad was approaching retirement age while working as an engineer for Texas instruments, he would have received a nice retirement package if they had kept him on as he was due to receive, but instead, a few years before retirement, they laid him off, but then agreed to " rehire him back as " contract labor" to do the exact same job in his very same office at TI, but he just loses all his benefits. He had to take it because he had no other option to survive, but he lost his health insurance, his retirement, vacation pay and everything else he was supposed to have owed to him that he had worked for all those years.

Contract labor, temp workers ect are just means employers are doing to work around paying people what they should be paid as a means to circumvent the laws. It just hurts the workers, there really is no other reason for it existing.

My brother was considered " contract labor" when he was working for an airport as an airplane mechanic and living in the airport hanger there. He had his right hand thumb almost cut off entirely while working and he did not qualify for workmans' comp because he was contract labor. He didn't have insurance because he was contract labor, and he couldn't even qualify for disability due to being contract labor even though being unable to work due.

One of my other brothers is a mechanic in a automotive shop where all the mechanics are considered " contract labor " as well, none have health or vacation benefits. If they get hurt, they are screwed too. There is NOTHING good about being contract labor tbh. It is just another means by employers to pocket part of what the workers actually earned for themselves. Sort of like the managers that would take servers tips for themselves instead of letting the servers keep their tips they earned.

 

[Houseman]

As a contractor you usually get paid more than an employee, because an employer needs to provide healthcare and all sorts of other benefits for an employee.

I switched from being a full-time employee to a half-time contractor and I still get paid more.
I just have to pay for my own health insurance, if I want any. Also, taxes are more complicated.

 

[Saint of M]

So would this bill be a good thing or a bad thing?

 

[lil devils x]

As a contractor you usually get paid more than an employee, because an employer needs to provide healthcare and all sorts of other benefits for an employee.

I switched from being a full-time employee to a half-time contractor and I still get paid more.
I just have to pay for my own health insurance, if I want any. Also, taxes are more complicated.

In general, they still pay contractors less than what the employer pays in benefits for a regular employee, so you are coming out with the short end of the stick when you add it up. Taxes, social security are also more complicated and you have to make sure they are taking out for your social security so that you do not lose your credits. If you do not earn enough social security credits in the 10 years before applying for social security disability, you will be denied benefits if you become disabled. So if you get injured on the job you cannot claim workers comp OR social security disability or if you are in a car accident or become ill and are unable to work, you will have no income because you will not qualify for social security disability as well.

Your pay would not add up to more when you add up everything the employer paid for + social security and taxes, you are also responsible for your own insurance, not just health insurance, but if you screw up on the job, they may sue you, not the business, meaning you are supposed to also be responsible for your own surety bonds/ liability insurance if you screw up.

 

[lil devils x]

So would this bill be a good thing or a bad thing?

Bad due to what I just listed above. You are supposed to pay for all of these other things on your own as contract labor out of your own pocket. Liability insurance/ surety bonds are not cheap either. You being a contractor, you are the responsible party, so they sue you, not the company you work for if something goes wrong, even if it wasn't your fault, you can still be held liable for a faulty part and then you would have to go after the company that sold you the part, but you would still be sued by the client regardless.

 

[Houseman]

So would this bill be a good thing or a bad thing?

If they vote yes, things would stay as they are. They would continue to be classified as contractors.
If they vote no, then they would probably be classified as employees.

Most likely, if Uber were forced to classify their drivers as employees in a state, they'd just pull out of that state entirely, and then the community would suffer. The taxi people would be happy, though.

 

[lil devils x]

If they vote yes, things would stay as they are. They would continue to be classified as contractors.
If they vote no, then they would probably be classified as employees.

Most likely, if Uber were forced to classify their drivers as employees in a state, they'd just pull out of that state entirely, and then the community would suffer. The taxi people would be happy, though.

Because the taxi company people actually have benefits, are bonded, and have fought really hard for those things and allowing other companies to come in with essentially slave wages to undermine all that pretty much screwed them over. If Uber and Lyft pulled out, some other rideshare company would just take their place as there is still room for profit even if companies have to treat employees like human beings.

So many of those working contract labor do not realize how screwed they are until something actually happens. DO you pay for your own liability insurance/ sureity bond? Social security credits? If not, you could have some serious problems depending on your field and you have to just pray you don't get into a car accident or have something else go wrong where you can't work or you are completely screwed with 0 income. It will also affect your retirement pay as well if you don't pay enough in. It reduces how much you can receive every month once you are of retirement age. Not having health insurance is also a big risk if something happens. You could be stuck just like my brother not being able to get your thumb fixed.

When you add up all these things, your paychecks look a lot smaller than you thought they did.

 

[Houseman]

DO you pay for your own liability insurance/ sureity bond?

No, and I'm not in the sort of work where that is needed.

Social security credits?

I haven't yet, this is only my first year as a contractor and those are paid with the annual taxes, so says the government.

 

[lil devils x]

No, and I'm not in the sort of work where that is needed.



I haven't yet, this is only my first year as a contractor and those are paid with the annual taxes, so says the government.

Yea just remembering to put enough aside and not touch it is the problem. What type of work doesn't have risk of being sued somewhere? Hell even my Dad working as an engineer for TI had risks, even though he was just giving other guys instructions on what to do from behind a desk over the radio. My Dad pretty much had skills very few people had so he was the guy everyone called for answers when they couldn't figure something out, and he was skilled enough he could tell them exactly what to do without even seeing what they are working on himself. .. He was the guy in the action movies who could tell you how to build or diffuse a bomb over the radio. /s

Also, not having health insurance is a pretty big risk. :\

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Gig economy is bullshit designed to skirt around rules and regulations that were written in blood. Uber's losing *billions* of dollars a year trying to make Taxis-but-More-Exploitative.

Of course it's bad.

 

[Saint of M]

SO if we want these drivers to have anything close to both decent and benefits, we need to probably vote no? Serious question, but that is the gist I am getting here.

 

[lil devils x]

SO if we want these drivers to have anything close to both decent and benefits, we need to probably vote no? Serious question, but that is the gist I am getting here.

Yes, vote NO to keep them from being exploited and have at least a chance at getting benefits. Even if Lyft and Uber pull out because they don;t want to treat people humanely, there will be another company take their place that will. As long as there is a demand, there will be a service that is willing to comply with the law fill it's place.
Letting slave wages like this take hold puts those drivers and businesses affected at risk as well as others in other fields as it tends to spread. It just started out with construction workers, plumbers and such here in Texas, next thing you know engineers who have been working desk jobs for 30 years are laid off from TI and just lost all their benefits just to bring them back to do the same job for less and no benefits.. That is how this works in reality.

Besides, if Uber pulls out and they are going to be doing contract work regardless in the meantime, all they have to do is leave a flyer with their info on it on the doors of their regular fares and can spread the word that way they will still drive them in the meantime. At least that way they get to keep the entire fair than have to give Uber their cut, so works better for them either way. There is nothing stopping people from doing what they did pre Uber with posting their info on social media to get the word out so people can still find rides and these drivers an still get paid as individuals taking the entire fair instead and set their own parameters instead of having to compete and pay Uber to abuse them anyhow.

 

[Trunkage]

If they vote yes, things would stay as they are. They would continue to be classified as contractors.
If they vote no, then they would probably be classified as employees.

Most likely, if Uber were forced to classify their drivers as employees in a state, they'd just pull out of that state entirely, and then the community would suffer. The taxi people would be happy, though.

I mean, Uber is shit but taxis are worse. Everyone loses

 

[lil devils x]

I mean, Uber is shit but taxis are worse. Everyone loses

Not really, because the drivers themselves can still work independently and then they just keep their entire fare instead of giving Uber their cut and have to deal with Uber's BS. They can just advertise locally with flyers at clubs and bars and such and for free on social media. We had independent drivers do that all the time when I was bartending that didn't work for any of these services. They would just leave either business cards or flyers by the door for people to call if they needed a ride home due to not wanting to drink and drive. We had a lot of limo drivers do that, but others can do so as well. If they are going to be independent contractors, let them take the money of independent contractors instead of having to pay Uber. If they have to pay Uber, then Uber is an employer and should give them the benefits for doing so. Uber and lyft pretty much ran all of the actual independent contractors out of business and then " hired" them back with a massive pay cut. It is BS.

 

[Gergar12]

I say this as a social democrat, and progressive. Not a fan of taxis, and construction unions. Horrible service at a too high of a price. Teacher's unions are great tho.

 

[Houseman]

Not really, because the drivers themselves can still work independently and then they just keep their entire fare instead of giving Uber their cut and have to deal with Uber's BS. They can just advertise locally with flyers at clubs and bars and such and for free on social media. We had independent drivers do that all the time when I was bartending that didn't work for any of these services. They would just leave either business cards or flyers by the door for people to call if they needed a ride home due to not wanting to drink and drive. We had a lot of limo drivers do that, but others can do so as well. If they are going to be independent contractors, let them take the money of independent contractors instead of having to pay Uber. If they have to pay Uber, then Uber is an employer and should give them the benefits for doing so. Uber and lyft pretty much ran all of the actual independent contractors out of business and then " hired" them back with a massive pay cut. It is BS.

Doesn't it cost like a million dollars (literally) to get a taxi license (medallion) in NYC?

 

[lil devils x]

Doesn't it cost like a million dollars (literally) to get a taxi license (medallion) in NYC?

I live in Texas, so I have no idea about what NYC does.In Texas, independent drivers do not need a Taxi license. Some cities issue permits. They have capacity limits that require special permits but that doesn't apply to most drivers.

How does Texas make sure your limousine and its driver are safe?

After a limousine crash killed 20 people Saturday in upstate New York, authorities are saying that the vehicle never should have been on the road...

www.dallasnews.com

Transportation For Hire FQAs

dallascityhall.com

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Uber Fees: How Much Does Uber Pay, Actually? (With Case Studies)

Is Uber ripping off drivers? Claims that the company only takes 25% of driver earnings are highly disputed. Here's the real truth: How much does Uber pay?

www.ridester.com

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Looking at that, independent drivers would be MUCH better off without Uber. YIKES.

 

[deleted20220709]

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[Trunkage]

Doesn't it cost like a million dollars (literally) to get a taxi license (medallion) in NYC?

As far as I've heard, it's pretty stupid there