Supreme Court Basically Absolves Trump of Emoluments.

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ObsidianJones

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First, let's go over some history.


The emoluments clause, also called the foreign emoluments clause, is a provision of the U.S. Constitution (Article I, Section 9, Paragraph 8) that generally prohibits federal officeholders from receiving any gift, payment, or other thing of value from a foreign state or its rulers, officers, or representatives. The clause provides that:No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.


The Constitution also contains a “domestic emoluments clause” (Article II, Section 1, Paragraph 7), which prohibits the president from receiving any “Emolument” from the federal government or the states beyond “a Compensation” for his “Services” as chief executive.
During his time in office, there has certainly been profit made by his properties.


So in this case, the Emoluments Clauses is - are the sort of operative parts of the Constitution. Those say presidents should not receive anything from the United States government beyond the president's official salary and that the president should not receive emoluments, meaning payments, from foreign governments. Trump has done both. He's gotten lots of payments from the U.S. government related to these presidential and other vice presidential trips to his properties. He's gotten at least a million dollars a year from foreign governments staying at his properties. And the mechanism to enforce that turns out to be the federal courts, which have moved very, very slowly as they try to sort of process this whole new area of law that they really hadn't dealt with before. The practical effect is that Trump gets away with it. There's nobody who really has the authority to tell him to stop.

GROSS: And then, of course, there's the suggestion President Trump made that the next G-7 be held at his Doral golf resort in Florida. And just the suggestion with his description, his very florid description of how great the Doral is, sounded like an infomercial. What would it mean if the G-7 was held there in terms of ethics?

FAHRENTHOLD: It would mean that the basic promise that Trump made when he took office, which was, look, nobody can stop me from mixing my business and my presidency, but I will stop myself, you can count on me to keep business and presidency separate - that basic promise would have just collapsed. Trump would have walked away from it. This is - this would be the president of the United States using American power to basically book a convention for his golf resort, basically using the prestige and the alliances that America has to fill some hotel rooms at his own building and put some money in his own pocket. It would be an unprecedented step, obviously, but also a signal that Trump doesn't intend to follow the even pretty meager guidelines that he set for himself at the start of his administration.

GROSS: And in addition to the ethical questions, security experts think the Doral would be a bad location.

FAHRENTHOLD: Yeah. If you think about the G-7, it is in an - you know, it brings seven world leaders, plus usually a few others who come to visit. It's a huge security nightmare. And so people have tended to do it in very luxurious but isolated places, places where you can put and tthese world leaders somewhere, seal them off and make sure that they don't - you know, that the world isn't - the outside world doesn't come anywhere near them. The last time the U.S. did it at a private compound was in 2004 at Sea Island in Georgia - a literal island that they seal off and they put Navy ships around the island. It was like a - you know, it was a bubble.

And Doral - you can't do that. Doral is located in - it's pretty far inland in Miami. It's close to the Miami airport. The surroundings are shopping malls, office parks, neighborhoods. It's not in any way isolatable in the way that an island or a peninsula would be. So it would be a security nightmare. I think the bigger nightmare might be that it's just not - maybe not nice enough. These places are - these G-7 conferences are held at very fancy places. Every national party gets their own fancy hotel. And so to sort of divide them among the wings that are usually used for visiting golfers, that might not have the same kind of luxurious standards that they're used to.

GROSS: And just to give a sense of a pattern here, I'm going to mention Attorney General William Barr has planned $30,000 holiday party at the Trump International Hotel. He said other hotels were booked and that he consulted ethics officials and they said it was OK. So what questions does this raise, that the attorney general would be holding a $30,000 holiday party at a Trump Hotel in Washington, D.C.?

FAHRENTHOLD: Well, this is, again, a sign that there's kind of a gray area at the very top of the federal government. Things you couldn't do if you were just a civil service employee, you can do if you're a Cabinet secretary or the president, mostly because those folks were expected to sort of follow a code on their own and not need laws to bind them. So here's a case where William Barr, the attorney general, was elevated to his post by President Trump, given this vast power and prestige. He then uses $30,000-plus of his own money and gives it back to President Trump in the form of this holiday party booking. There's nothing, as far as we can tell, explicitly illegal about that, but it is the kind of thing that, if it were an employee and his boss somewhere lower down in the federal food chain, there might be much bigger problems.


GROSS: And as you've pointed out, the Department of Justice is defending the president's business in court, including issues related to hosting foreign governments at Trump hotels.

FAHRENTHOLD: That's right. The DOJ - and this arrangement is - it's unusual in some ways and not unusual in others. Often, the DOJ is the president's lawyer. People sued President Obama, President Clinton, whoever. The DOJ would defend them. What's different in these cases is that the DOJ is defending Trump's private conduct, all right? Obviously, the DOJ would defend the president if he's sued over actions he takes as president. In this case, they're defending Trump's actions as a hotel operator - you know, his decision to do business with foreign governments and telling judges and plaintiffs, you know, that's off-limits. It's not a big deal. Nobody needs to know even the details of this. So yes, DOJ has been Trump's lawyer in those cases since before Barr came on. Now Barr is in charge of those efforts and also a patron of the Trump Hotel.

GROSS: So last year, foreign governments paid more than a million dollars to The Trump Organization. Ninety percent of that was spent at the Trump Hotel in Washington, D.C. Who are some of the foreign leaders and foreign businessmen who have stayed there who have official business to do with the Trump White House?
And there was a case since 2018 about emoluments that was held up and stymied by the SCOTUS and Trump was just dismissed today. And not just dismissed. Removed from the lower courts saying that Trump isn't President any more, and the constitution infraction only applies to Presidents.


So in the end, Trump was right. The emolument clause was phony. Almost any charge against a president is phony. The take away most get from the Mueller investigation is that you can't indict a a sitting president. So Emoluments couldn't be processed. Now, A Trump seated Supreme Court says that the crimes that were possibly happened for four years don't matter because he isn't the President any more.

And I'm sure that they'll 'fix' this at the end. Once again letting Trump skate because... I don't have any idea.
 

Houseman

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Once again: "The legal system is bad when we get an outcome that we don't like, but good when we get an outcome we do like".
 

Houseman

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Yes. Do you think we’re supposed to think a legal system is inherently good?
I'm just noting that people were happy to praise the legal system when they threw out Trump's election lawsuits.
People should be consistent, is all.
 
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Revnak

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I'm just noting that people were happy to praise the legal system when they threw out Trump's election lawsuits.
People should be consistent, is all.
Cool.
 

tippy2k2

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Don't you see Revy?

If you accept this ruling, you are legally required to accept all rulings courts have ever done. You accepted this ruling, therefore you have to accept that innocent guy being on Death Row because the courts said he was guilty.

You've just been pwned by FACTS and LOGIC

OT: Shocking, the rich old guy gets to skate free. I am shocked. This is a shocking ruling. Although given that people in the government also are somehow allowed to own stock and then do everything they can to make sure that stock jumps in value (or sells if they know something is coming that will tank said stock; see like...half of the fuckers in January 2020 when Covid was still just a blip on the radar), it's not exactly surprising. If they start cracking down on shit like that when someone like Trump does it, they'd inadvertently crack down on themselves when they do it too and we can't have that...
 

XsjadoBlayde

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Not surprising. At least there's the other 30 million lawsuits patiently waiting for his overfed hairy arse to get off the gold toilet. And then there's the heart attack I've arranged through pagan rituals.
 

Xprimentyl

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Yes. Do you think we’re supposed to think a legal system is inherently good?
There is no inconsistency in having two different opinions about two different rulings.
It's just the same old shit; "someone" looking to argue for the sake of arguing; even when his stance is about as thin as wet rice paper, he'll find a way to argue it just to incite people. You can't honestly read his response and think there's any substance there; this is one of his more blatant "I got nothing, but here's something" posts to date. Don't entertain him. I'll save you the effort: he'll talk in circles for +20 pages, and when you're finally tired of his bullshit, "he got you" because of reasons he'll have pulled out of his ass.
 

Kwak

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I'm just noting that people were happy to praise the legal system when they threw out Trump's election lawsuits.
People should be consistent, is all.
Why? Have you met people before?
 

Adam Jensen

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So in the end, Trump was right. The emolument clause was phony. Almost any charge against a president is phony.
In before Republicans go after Biden for emoluments anyway.

Once again: "The legal system is bad when we get an outcome that we don't like, but good when we get an outcome we do like".
What a simplistic, and dare I say idiotic interpretation. The legal system is not just one simple thing. It's a complex system. There's nothing inherently wrong with criticizing one aspect and not the other. It can make sense. And in this case it does make sense.

Trump's lawsuits were dismissed because his attorneys failed to provide the necessary evidence that would support their claims. Only an insane person would want nonsensical claims to be recognized as valid evidence. On the other hand, it's painfully obvious that Trump DID break the emoluments clause. It's just that no one gives a fuck.

A blatant example that a child could understand: you can applaud the legal system when it results in conviction of someone like Ted Bundy, and at the same time criticize it when it fails to do so, like in the case of OJ Simpson.

To those who paint the entire justice system as either good or bad, yes there is.
No one did that, so congratulations on your straw-man.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Why? Have you met people before?
Well, don't forget this is Houseman. He doesn't understand the difference between a frivolous suit and one with merit.
 
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Houseman

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What a simplistic, and dare I say idiotic interpretation. The legal system is not just one simple thing. It's a complex system. There's nothing inherently wrong with criticizing one aspect and not the other. It can make sense. And in this case it does make sense.

Trump's lawsuits were dismissed because his attorneys failed to provide the necessary evidence that would support their claims. Only an insane person would want nonsensical claims to be recognized as valid evidence. On the other hand, it's painfully obvious that Trump DID break the emoluments clause. It's just that no one gives a fuck.

A blatant example that a child could understand: you can applaud the legal system when it results in conviction of someone like Ted Bundy, and at the same time criticize it when it fails to do so, like in the case of OJ Simpson.
There are two complementing layers to this:
1) The system is flawed. You know it's flawed. You criticize its flaws whenever you perceive them
2) You're biased. You might have found someone guilty through the court of public (or your own) opinion.

So therefore, how can you be sure that a perceived flaw isn't just the result of your own biases? When you're happy with the result, how can you be sure that justice was actually done, and an innocent person wasn't condemned, or a guilty person wasn't freed, due to one of those flaws?

It's like Gell-Mann Amnesia. Read a newspaper story you have personal experience with, and shake your head at how inaccurate it is. Then read the next article and suddenly you forget about the previous experience and trust the article completely. The better thing to do is realize it's flawed and never trust anything you can't verify.
 

Hades

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So does this mean Biden can go directly take gold from the US treasury for four to eight years and get away with it because one day he'll no longer be president?
 

Gergar12

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The Supreme Court is a tool for elites. For every good decision like the gay marriage decision(Obergefell v. Hodges)
,they have dozens of horrible decisions. Decisions like Citizens United v. FEC, Bush v Gore, fuck it just read this.


"In several big-ticket cases this term, the conservative Supreme Court appeared to give significant wins to progressives. On issues including abortion, immigration, and LGBTQ equality, a majority of the Court voted for seemingly progressive results. And in the subpoena cases issued on the last day of the term, the Court rejected the president’s sweeping argument that his personal financial records are off-limits to Congress and state grand juries. But on closer inspection, these opinions and others actually gave conservatives some important wins as well.

One of the most crucial apparent victories for progressives came in the Louisiana abortion case. The Supreme Court struck down Louisiana’s restrictive abortion law that would have required all abortion providers to obtain admitting privileges at hospitals within 30 miles of where they perform abortions. Four years ago, in Whole Woman’s Health v. Hellerstedt, the Supreme Court invalidated the same law when Texas enacted it.

The result in the Louisiana case was certainly a progressive win. But the reasoning in Chief Justice John Roberts’s opinion spells trouble for abortion rights down the road. The majority opinion, written by Justice Stephen Breyer, said that the law was invalid because it offered very little benefits and imposed some rather substantial obstacles. The chief justice wrote separately to say that he agreed the Louisiana law was invalid, but only because he believed that the Court must stay in line with its decision four years ago.

Read: What the Supreme Court’s abortion decision means

Significantly, the chief justice also hinted that he agreed with his more conservative colleagues that the reasoning in the Court’s prior decisions protecting abortion rights should be narrowed if not abandoned. The conservative majority therefore seems poised to apply a watered-down standard to future cases that do not involve laws the Court has previously struck down, or that involve laws with less dramatic effects. (The Louisiana law could have closed two of the three abortion clinics in the state.)

Under the chief justice’s approach, a state could pass a law restricting abortion for almost any reason and not have to prove that the law produced any actual health or safety benefits for women. That legal standard could allow states to enact medically flimsy health restrictions, whereas the Court’s previous standard required states to demonstrate, with evidence, that laws actually benefited women’s health and safety. Indeed, after the Court decided the Louisiana case, it instructed the lower courts to revisit two decisions that invalidated abortion restrictions, including one that struck down a law that would have required women to obtain an ultrasound 18 hours before they have an abortion.

The Court’s decision on the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program also contains some ominous signs for progressives. Here, too, the opinion gave progressives a significant win by ensuring that DACA recipients do not suddenly become vulnerable to deportation.

But again, the reasoning in the decision provided a boon to the conservative legal movement. The Court began its analysis with a statement that the Trump administration “may rescind DACA” so long as it follows the correct procedures. The Court, however, concluded that the administration’s initial memo rescinding DACA did not follow the appropriate procedures, because the administration did not adequately spell out its decision-making process, including whether it had considered alternatives to ending the entire DACA program or DACA recipients’ reliance on the program.

Jin K. Park: DACA isn’t what made me an American

Moreover, the DACA decision narrowed the circumstances in which courts will find that so-called facially neutral policies, meaning those that do not mention race, are nonetheless unconstitutional. Facially neutral policies are unconstitutional when motivated by racial discrimination. The Court’s analysis in the DACA case, which concluded that the challengers did not establish that racial discrimination motivated the rescission, makes it more difficult to prove that racial discrimination influenced a government policy. The chief justice said that the president’s racist statements about immigration, including those about how Mexicans are criminals and rapists, were “unilluminating,” and did not suggest that animus toward immigrants led to the end of DACA.

The further whittling away of legal protections against discrimination was evident in several of the Court’s other cases this term. One was a little-noticed decision, Comcast v. National Association of African American–Owned Media, that formally ratcheted up the legal standard for proving racial discrimination in contracting.

But the arguably more significant decisions came in cases for which the Supreme Court never heard oral arguments. The Court put on hold two lower-court decisions that loosened state restrictions on voting in light of the coronavirus pandemic. The plaintiffs challenging the voting restrictions argued that racial minorities, Black voters in particular, would be especially hurt by them because of the higher incidence of the coronavirus in Black communities, the higher death rates from the coronavirus in Black communities, and the voting restrictions’ disproportionately adverse effect on Black communities. In one case, a Wisconsin court extended the deadline for voting absentee; in the other, an Alabama court loosened some of the requirements for voting absentee. In both cases, the Supreme Court, by a 5–4 vote, with the conservatives in the majority, stayed the lower-court decisions, thus allowing states to enforce restrictive voting laws in the midst of a pandemic, making voters choose between risking their life and not voting at all.

Finally, there was the Title VII decision. Here, too, the outcome was a major win for a progressive legal cause—LGBTQ equality. The Court ruled that an employer discriminates on the basis of sex, in violation of Title VII, when the employer discriminates against an employee because of their sexual orientation or gender identity. The decision means that existing federal law forbids employers from discriminating against LGBTQ individuals.

But the reasoning in the decision suggests that victory will be limited in significant ways in the near future. For example, the opinion went out of its way to suggest that another statute, the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, might prevent Title VII from prohibiting discrimination by employers who have religious objections. Indeed, the author of the Title VII opinion, Justice Neil Gorsuch, joined an opinion in another case that concluded the Religious Freedom Restoration Act allows religious exemptions to another statute, the Affordable Care Act. In the Title VII, DACA, and Louisiana abortion cases, the outcomes appeared to be progressive while the reasoning signaled forthcoming wins for the conservative legal movement.

In the remaining major cases—the presidential-immunity cases—conservatives won the outcomes they wanted even though the Court seemed to reject the Trump administration’s legal arguments. In both Trump v. Mazars and Trump v. Vance, the Court rejected the administration’s broadest attacks on subpoenas that sought the president’s financial records. The Court ruled out the possibility that a president’s personal financial records could never be subpoenaed while the president was in office. The Court also rejected the argument that subpoenas regarding the president are valid only if Congress or state prosecutors can make some heightened showing of need for them.

Quinta Jurecic: Mazars is a victory for rule of law

But the Court also declined to hold that the subpoenas could be enforced now. As a result, Donald Trump got what he wanted—a decision that ensured his financial records would not become public before the 2020 election. In the congressional subpoena case, the Court directed the lower courts to apply a legal standard to the subpoenas that would allow the president to raise more specific arguments for how exactly the subpoenas burdened the presidency or sought too much information. And in the New York grand-jury subpoena case, the Court directed the lower courts to consider slightly reformulated, and more specific, challenges to the subpoenas that the president might want to raise. As a result, Congress and the New York grand jury will not obtain the president’s financial records in the near future, and the public will not see them anytime soon. That represents a significant win for Trump, who has sought to keep his financial records secret and certainly does not want them coming to light right before the election. By permitting the president to raise slightly different legal challenges to the subpoenas—and by directing the lower courts to be more attuned to the separation-of-powers concerns with subpoenas implicating the president—the Court guaranteed that these subpoenas will be tied up in litigation for the foreseeable future.

Liberals seemed to win several major Supreme Court cases this term, either because the results of the cases benefited liberal causes or because the Court rejected conservatives’ sweeping arguments. But even in cases where liberals appeared to win, conservatives did not exactly lose—and, indeed, seem on the brink of winning a lot in the years ahead."
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
The Supreme Court is a tool for elites. For every good decision like the gay marriage decision(Obergefell v. Hodges)
,they have dozens of horrible decisions. Decisions like Citizens United v. FEC, Bush v Gore, fuck it just read this.
We have a very conservative supreme court and we will for a long time. We decided this when Hillary lost in 2016. Sucks.

Also, Citizens United might not be all bad. If it was ruled against then that could have some pretty bad outcomes. Like say you wanted to do a climate change documentary in an election year, that could be seen as political speech and stifled if we didn't have citizens united. The thing about political speech is the side that disagrees with a topic makes it political.