COVID responses and their effectiveness

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Trunkage

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So, shit is getting real over Covid

The Netherlands has some riots
And now they’re going to sending more police out... which I could imagine isn’t going to inflame

As does Israel but it seems to be more focused on the Ultra Orthodox who have caused most of the damage
The average Israeli seems to be getting sick of ‘religious freedom’ idiots who keep Covid flourishing

Also, the Italian president quit due to disputes over the COVID response

Obviously, we’ve talked about the US and UK a lot already. The California being the most recent one

Things aren’t going well...
 

Silvanus

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Boris Johnson once stated that 20,000 dead would be a relatively "good" outcome. Just the other day, he made a statement to the effect that he was "deeply sorry" that the toll had passed 100,000 dead.

He delayed the first lockdown until it was far too late. He introduced a raft of confusing, counter-intuitive, and sometimes self-contradictory rules, many of which existed to facilitate private enterprise while restricting everything else (I cannot invite a family member into my home, but I can hire a contractor to work on the inside of my home?)

Lives have been a second priority for the UK government, behind money, from the start.
 

Thaluikhain

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Boris Johnson once stated that 20,000 dead would be a relatively "good" outcome. Just the other day, he made a statement to the effect that he was "deeply sorry" that the toll had passed 100,000 dead.

He delayed the first lockdown until it was far too late. He introduced a raft of confusing, counter-intuitive, and sometimes self-contradictory rules, many of which existed to facilitate private enterprise while restricting everything else (I cannot invite a family member into my home, but I can hire a contractor to work on the inside of my home?)

Lives have been a second priority for the UK government, behind money, from the start.
Yeah, the UK looks to be outdoing the US in mismanaging covid. Which is quite an achievement.

Though, as a person not living in the UK, it seems only partly due to caring about money more than lives, and in large part due to not caring because nobody is going to ever hold them accountable for anything they do.
 

Chimpzy

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Belgium here. We have the illustrious honor of having the highest deaths per million in the world.

Granted, that's partly because our definition of what constitutes a Covid death is broader than most, but even so, we're not doing well imo. Implementing or strictening measures, yes, but usually much too late, confusing, and always hobbled by our pathological urge to compromise in that typical Belgian fashion that leaves no one happy and wholly fails at achieving any of its goals.

For example, yesterday it was decided that perhaps it was for the best that all soccer leagues be cancelled. But an exception is made for the pro leagues. And for the youth leagues. Which combined is like, what, half of them? Tho if you ask me, those youth leagues are only included so they can go "think of the children" and it's really all about keeping the pro leagues going i.e. where the money is.

So hey you Brits, don't feel too down, you are not alone. Or rather, you have competition.
 

Generals

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So, shit is getting real over Covid

The Netherlands has some riots
And now they’re going to sending more police out... which I could imagine isn’t going to inflame
This doesn't surprise me at all. The Dutch government has always been very reserved with regards to taking restrictive measures and it was also that government that told people not to get tested "frivolously" because their testing capacity was long severely lacking. Add to that a relatively individualistic Dutch culture and you get a total rejection of strict measures by a part of the population.
 
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Generals

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Belgium here. We have the illustrious honor of having the highest deaths per million in the world.

Granted, that's partly because our definition of what constitutes a Covid death is broader than most, but even so, we're not doing well imo. Implementing or strictening measures, yes, but usually much too late, confusing, and always hobbled by our pathological urge to compromise in that typical Belgian fashion that leaves no one happy and wholly fails at achieving any of its goals.

For example, yesterday it was decided that perhaps it was for the best that all soccer leagues be cancelled. But an exception is made for the pro leagues. And for the youth leagues. Which combined is like, what, half of them? Tho if you ask me, those youth leagues are only included so they can go "think of the children" and it's really all about keeping the pro leagues going i.e. where the money is.

So hey you Brits, don't feel too down, you are not alone. Or rather, you have competition.
Let's not forget about the partial closing of the borders now that it is too late. Everyone should have known that it was during the X-mas holidays they should have been closed to prevent the UK variant from spreading, instead we waited until the UK variant was well established to close the borders....
 

stroopwafel

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So, shit is getting real over Covid

The Netherlands has some riots
And now they’re going to sending more police out... which I could imagine isn’t going to inflame
To be honest those riots didn't really have anything to do with protests. It are the same hooligans who vandalize property and fight with police after a football match. They were just waiting for an opportunity to riot again.

Public support for the curfew is definitely divided. Apparently public health services fear mutated strains of the virus could exponentially infect people and that a curfew is able to slow down this transmission rate. You could argue either way if giving people partial house arrest warrants the mitigation of this risk or if taking such drastic measures based on vague assumptions is a cure worse than the disease. Personally I think they could accomplish much more with stricter work from home measures.

It has taken so much monumental debt to 'manage' this crisis that the government is pretty much putting up future generations for fail with rising inequality, social unrest, job insecurity, liquidity issues and a priviliged class that is financially immune. And that is in the best case scenario not accounting for conflict, environmental collapse or more novel viruses due to climate change. Already houses are unaffordable due to inflation, stock market and economy has become independent from people or their spending habits(globalization and international capital have become completely dominant so people can lose their jobs in masses but the economy won't notice a thing) and as a result costs of living increases but not the wages, the complications of severe overpopulation in the coastal areas continue to increase(traffic infarction alsmost every other day) and more and more 'needy' people due to an aging population makes the entire system of social welfare and collective healthcare collapse under it's own weight.

I know for many countries the future is looking bleak but the Netherlands is not immune to say the least. Pretty much every western country is dealing with the same issues now.
 

Agema

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Just the other day, he made a statement to the effect that he was "deeply sorry" that the toll had passed 100,000 dead.
If they don't resign, they're never that sorry.

It has taken so much monumental debt to 'manage' this crisis that the government is pretty much putting up future generations for fail with rising inequality, social unrest, job insecurity, liquidity issues and a priviliged class that is financially immune.
Maybe. But with the tide of debt and social unhappiness, I wouldn't bet on that financial immunity continuing. If the growing movements of both the further left and further right agree on anything, it's that the system is fucked and we're being taken for a ride by the super-rich.

Really, capitalism has not been fully delivering for a long time. The rise of welfare over the last few decades - most of which has been welfare for working people - indicates that government has been used to paper over the cracks of a system that doesn't much serve a lot of people as it probably should. If the indebtedness of governments means that these cracks can no longer be papered over, I think the super-rich are eventually going to find themselves staring at the prospect of handing over a lot more money voluntarily or ever more extreme measures to forcibly take it from them.
 

stroopwafel

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Maybe. But with the tide of debt and social unhappiness, I wouldn't bet on that financial immunity continuing. If the growing movements of both the further left and further right agree on anything, it's that the system is fucked and we're being taken for a ride by the super-rich.

Really, capitalism has not been fully delivering for a long time. The rise of welfare over the last few decades - most of which has been welfare for working people - indicates that government has been used to paper over the cracks of a system that doesn't much serve a lot of people as it probably should. If the indebtedness of governments means that these cracks can no longer be papered over, I think the super-rich are eventually going to find themselves staring at the prospect of handing over a lot more money voluntarily or ever more extreme measures to forcibly take it from them.
Could be, but I think the problem is much more structural and the transfer of capital much more amorphous. Investment capital is really not bound to any one location and with stakeholders being pension funds, insurance companies, governments and banks it is too ingrained into the society. People rely on credit. The problem I think is really with the central banks. They allow governments to borrow huge amounts of money from the capital markets by suppressing the interest rates and making savings extremely expensive. It is how you get those inflated values in the property market. The central banks enabled governments to earn money from debt through negative interest rates but by doing so have become fully dependent on the capital market. You are either independent or you are in debt you can't be both. And western governments in particular are astronomically in debt. It is the reason why corporate and international capital is treated with such silk gloves. They are at the top of the hierarchy.

I don't see this changing unless there is some Roman empire kind of collapse.
 

bluegate

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Know what I'm getting bloody sick off, the pivoting of opposition parties.

All measures are always too few too late or too much too soon.

"More should have been done earlier! You waited too long to evaluate your previous measures! Wait, you're now implementing harsher measures to more quickly stamp out the daily infections? Wait a minute! Let's take a wait and see approach first with other smaller measures!"
 

Agema

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Could be, but I think the problem is much more structural and the transfer of capital much more amorphous. Investment capital is really not bound to any one location and with stakeholders being pension funds, insurance companies, governments and banks it is too ingrained into the society. People rely on credit. The problem I think is really with the central banks. They allow governments to borrow huge amounts of money from the capital markets by suppressing the interest rates and making savings extremely expensive. It is how you get those inflated values in the property market. The central banks enabled governments to earn money from debt through negative interest rates but by doing so have become fully dependent on the capital market. You are either independent or you are in debt you can't be both. And western governments in particular are astronomically in debt. It is the reason why corporate and international capital is treated with such silk gloves. They are at the top of the hierarchy.

I don't see this changing unless there is some Roman empire kind of collapse.
Investment capital is mobile. But how mobile?

Money relies on opportunities. The money invested in the USA cannot be reallocated to the rest of the world, because the returns don't exist in the rest of the world to take it. There will be bubbles wherever that money flows as it chases after increasingly wasteful opportunities. Investments are also held in stocks. Block the stock sale, every investor's money is trapped there. They can hold cash in Panama or the British Virgin Islands, but any bits of companies they own abroad can be taken, assets frozen etc. if a country wants to. The USA, EU, China are colossal economies: they cannot be avoided, and that power gives them leverage. This idea of scaring away investors is more a myth than reality.

It's the usual shit that business talks when it just don't like policy. Take Google: it threatened to leave Australia because Australia wanted to make it pay Australian news services. Literally in the same week, Google France agreed to do exactly that and pay news services in France. When the EU told Facebook it didn't want data held in US servers, Facebook threatened to end its EU operations. Who are they kidding? FB is going to walk away from 500 million customers sitting on 25% of the global economy, inviting a competitor service to swoop in and build a base to challenge FB's global position? Of course they aren't. Ignore their stupid complaints. Change the rules and they'll change how they do things to carry on making profits.

Central banks are "independent", but obviously must co-ordinate with the central government. Interests rates are low to spur growth; of course also to make government debt repayable. Imagine how much trouble governments with 120% GDP debt would be with 10% interest rates on government bonds. Central banks literally cannot raise interest rates much without crashing their own countries at this point. We are seeing the end of easy credit in ways. Why is the Dow Jones stupidly high mid-pandemic? Because a lot of that extra liquidity hasn't gone into the economy, it's gone into wankers pumping up the share price of companies. Tesla is insanity. Its market cap is more than the next ten global car companies combined, despite it not being in the top 20 in car sales globally. You could argue market cap reflects the future, but all these companies also make perfectly good electric cars and when petrol dies, Tesla really is not going to have 90% of the market. Another tactic to keep current model capitalism staggering along is dying in front of our eyes.

Given the systemic decrease in GDP growth over time, we are probably never going to be able to grow our countries out of debt like we could in the postwar era. Average annual GDP growth is about 2%, not 3.5% like the 50s/60s. So to deal with their debt countries can either take away services and stare civil unhappiness and disorder in the face, or they start taxing. It's going to be the latter, because the corporate bigwigs lose their money away if their country self-destructs and takes their IP, property, and profit-making infrastructure with it. They might be able to gouge the middle classes for a while, but all that's ever going to do is make the middle classes realise they've got more in common with the poor than the rich, and the end result is they'll clamp down on the super-rich.

I don't think capitalism is dead. That's what everyone says every crisis and they're always wrong. But the current Reaganite / Thatcherite neoliberal model looks like its time might be running out, and it can't be soon enough.
 

Baffle

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Whatever you do, don't pay people to go to the pub. Because that would be excruciatingly stupid.
 

Baffle

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Know what I'm getting bloody sick off, the pivoting of opposition parties.

All measures are always too few too late or too much too soon.

"More should have been done earlier! You waited too long to evaluate your previous measures! Wait, you're now implementing harsher measures to more quickly stamp out the daily infections? Wait a minute! Let's take a wait and see approach first with other smaller measures!"
This is something very annoying about politics generally too. It's not about doing the right thing or joint efforts for the greatest good; it's about winning and making the other guy look like a twat.
 

Trunkage

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Know what I'm getting bloody sick off, the pivoting of opposition parties.

All measures are always too few too late or too much too soon.

"More should have been done earlier! You waited too long to evaluate your previous measures! Wait, you're now implementing harsher measures to more quickly stamp out the daily infections? Wait a minute! Let's take a wait and see approach first with other smaller measures!"
You know what has been pretty incredible in my country. States and Federal Government generally working well together. Sure there are spats and point scoring still trying ro go on but I'd say, generally, they've held it together

The biggest tension is that unemployment benefits are a federal thing so they want everyone to get back to work to pay less benefits while the states look after hospitals so they want everything nice and slow. But since they came out at the start with 'working together', and signs of point scoring has been seen as a big negative
 

stroopwafel

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Investment capital is mobile. But how mobile?

Money relies on opportunities. The money invested in the USA cannot be reallocated to the rest of the world, because the returns don't exist in the rest of the world to take it. There will be bubbles wherever that money flows as it chases after increasingly wasteful opportunities. Investments are also held in stocks. Block the stock sale, every investor's money is trapped there. They can hold cash in Panama or the British Virgin Islands, but any bits of companies they own abroad can be taken, assets frozen etc. if a country wants to. The USA, EU, China are colossal economies: they cannot be avoided, and that power gives them leverage. This idea of scaring away investors is more a myth than reality.

It's the usual shit that business talks when it just don't like policy. Take Google: it threatened to leave Australia because Australia wanted to make it pay Australian news services. Literally in the same week, Google France agreed to do exactly that and pay news services in France. When the EU told Facebook it didn't want data held in US servers, Facebook threatened to end its EU operations. Who are they kidding? FB is going to walk away from 500 million customers sitting on 25% of the global economy, inviting a competitor service to swoop in and build a base to challenge FB's global position? Of course they aren't. Ignore their stupid complaints. Change the rules and they'll change how they do things to carry on making profits.

Central banks are "independent", but obviously must co-ordinate with the central government. Interests rates are low to spur growth; of course also to make government debt repayable. Imagine how much trouble governments with 120% GDP debt would be with 10% interest rates on government bonds. Central banks literally cannot raise interest rates much without crashing their own countries at this point. We are seeing the end of easy credit in ways. Why is the Dow Jones stupidly high mid-pandemic? Because a lot of that extra liquidity hasn't gone into the economy, it's gone into wankers pumping up the share price of companies. Tesla is insanity. Its market cap is more than the next ten global car companies combined, despite it not being in the top 20 in car sales globally. You could argue market cap reflects the future, but all these companies also make perfectly good electric cars and when petrol dies, Tesla really is not going to have 90% of the market. Another tactic to keep current model capitalism staggering along is dying in front of our eyes.

Given the systemic decrease in GDP growth over time, we are probably never going to be able to grow our countries out of debt like we could in the postwar era. Average annual GDP growth is about 2%, not 3.5% like the 50s/60s. So to deal with their debt countries can either take away services and stare civil unhappiness and disorder in the face, or they start taxing. It's going to be the latter, because the corporate bigwigs lose their money away if their country self-destructs and takes their IP, property, and profit-making infrastructure with it. They might be able to gouge the middle classes for a while, but all that's ever going to do is make the middle classes realise they've got more in common with the poor than the rich, and the end result is they'll clamp down on the super-rich.

I don't think capitalism is dead. That's what everyone says every crisis and they're always wrong. But the current Reaganite / Thatcherite neoliberal model looks like its time might be running out, and it can't be soon enough.
Good points but I still think you underestimate the influence of international capital on policy making. Large investors will never sell their stock b/c it would plummet the stock price. Infact I would argue a lot of these tax refugees in Panama or Bermuda are only writing off profit on a subsidiary to increase the domestic stock price. It doesn't even have to be a dubious country. U.K. and the Netherlands for example are also competing over dividend tax to attract large capital and corporations and making exclusive tax deals with those companies. Who receives those priviliges? Only those that are equal or higher in the hierarchy.

Repayability of government debt has already passed it's point of no return. The decision to suppress the interest rates into negative numbers is a political decision because it allows governments to earn money from these astronomical loans and government bonds turns these into a collective debt. At what cause? Most of these loans are for corporations who threaten governments with mass lay-offs. But what happens when the well dries up? Those people will get fired anyway and all of that money will be gone. It is completely pointless and only digs a country further into a hole. What happens when a country's liquidity depends on the degree of trust the capital markets have in them? It's simple, they have pretty much gotten dominion.

There is no point pulling on a dead horse or delaying the inevatible. People who lost their job or small company could have gotten a form of basic income for a year or whatever time and it could have been accomplished for chump change. I guarantee you all those billions that governments loaned are wasted. What point is it to make people lose on their savings when there is already so much money in circulation that even large investors say that it is more than enough? That banks have to stash money at the central banks at huge costs? The central banks are completely out of touch. They are wasting all that money in an economy that no longer exists. I'm not surprised bitcoins are so expensive because the monetary policy is complete whack.

All that the suppression of interest rates have done is make housing costs ridiculously expensive and unaffordable for most. The excess money has to find a destination and a lot of that is in inflated property prices. How can people lose their jobs yet living costs and housing costs continue to increase exponentially? How can the economy tank yet speculation at the stock exchange is at an all time high? It is simple, the economy is mostly independent from the workforce or people's spending habits. The sad thing is that those who suffer the most from the coronavirus; small business, the unemployed and people searching for housing actually benefit the least from all those government loans.
 

Bob_McMillan

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Well, here in the Philippines we currently hold the world record for longest lockdown. How have we used our time in lockdown? To let the government do whatever fascist shit they want. Such as literally rubbing poor street vendor's faces into the dirt and hauling them off to jail, while letting celebrities have parties and go scot free, not even a fucking fine.

The latest bullshit of the week is a mayor of a very prominent city getting caught attending a full blown party hosted by some social climbing dipshit, with his wife not wearing a mask, and then having the gall to demand an explanation from the establishment as to why the party was allowed to happen.

I can only hope that all the suffering our brain dead, blatantly corrupt government has imposed on us will lead to change once people can go out again without fearing for their lives (2022 is our election year), but I don't have my hopes up. Depending on the elections, I might just finally up and leave this shithole, and that's something I have been against for a long time. The absolute disregard the people in power have towards the people they are suppose to serve is breaking me.

EDIT: Ah I forgot to mention, despite our piece of shit president claiming for a whole year now that the only solution to Covid is a vaccine, we are MONTHS behind on our vaccination program. The same said president has his personal security detail smuggle in unapproved, and currently unknown, vaccines to illegally vaccinate themselves. Its really no wonder that the threat of violence against politicians doesn't really bother me anymore.
 
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stroopwafel

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Well, here in the Philippines we currently hold the world record for longest lockdown. How have we used our time in lockdown? To let the government do whatever fascist shit they want. Such as literally rubbing poor street vendor's faces into the dirt and hauling them off to jail, while letting celebrities have parties and go scot free, not even a fucking fine.

The latest bullshit of the week is a mayor of a very prominent city getting caught attending a full blown party hosted by some social climbing dipshit, with his wife not wearing a mask, and then having the gall to demand an explanation from the establishment as to why the party was allowed to happen.

I can only hope that all the suffering our brain dead, blatantly corrupt government has imposed on us will lead to change once people can go out again without fearing for their lives (2022 is our election year), but I don't have my hopes up. Depending on the elections, I might just finally up and leave this shithole, and that's something I have been against for a long time. The absolute disregard the people in power have towards the people they are suppose to serve is breaking me.

EDIT: Ah I forgot to mention, despite our piece of shit president claiming for a whole year now that the only solution to Covid is a vaccine, we are MONTHS behind on our vaccination program. The same said president has his personal security detail smuggle in unapproved, and currently unknown, vaccines to illegally vaccinate themselves. Its really no wonder that the threat of violence against politicians doesn't really bother me anymore.
How much do you consider Duterte to blame for running your country into the ground?
 

Bob_McMillan

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How much do you consider Duterte to blame for running your country into the ground?
As much as I wished he'd slip in the shower and crack open his empty skull, he was inevitable. Regionalism in the Philippines is so much more significant than anyone ever thought. When a man from the provinces showed up to challenge the status quo with his "humility" and foul language, people really began to hope for change. They still do, despite nothing having changed for the better these past 4 years. That's what rich, supposedly educated people fucking you over for decades will do I guess.

So there are plenty of things I can directly blame him for. His dipshit statements have definitely scared off more than a few foreign investors. His attitude towards drugs and extra-judicial killings have gotten thousands killed. But the man is simply a front every other dirty politician can use to get away with whatever they want. They're really the ones fucking this country up. Having Duterte's support is a get out of jail free card, both in the eyes of the masses and the authorities, no matter how badly you fuck up. The power of the human mind to twist reality to fit their beliefs astounds me. Facebook with its piss-poor fake news management does not help at all.

In short, Duterte is an enabler of the worst kind,. I'm pretty sure even when the people wake up to the bullshit he's shovelling, those who have truly run our country into the ground will get away scot free. Probably run for re-election in a few years.
 

Agema

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Repayability of government debt has already passed it's point of no return.
This is plainly not true. firstly, countries have handled 150% GDP debt before, and can do again. Japan is already upwards of 200% right now. Secondly, with a balanced budget, 2% GDP growth and 2% inflation will decrease national debt about 4% a year. That would mean most countries could be well out of danger in ten years (even with a recession) and looking pretty healthy in twenty. I also would not underestimate the ability of countries to simply print money to pay off national debt (although really that ends up just a form of inflation). Of course, I'm not sure countries can even manage that, which is why I think they'll need to tax.

The decision to suppress the interest rates into negative numbers is a political decision because it allows governments to earn money from these astronomical loans and government bonds turns these into a collective debt. At what cause? Most of these loans are for corporations who threaten governments with mass lay-offs. But what happens when the well dries up? Those people will get fired anyway and all of that money will be gone. It is completely pointless and only digs a country further into a hole. What happens when a country's liquidity depends on the degree of trust the capital markets have in them? It's simple, they have pretty much gotten dominion.
Official government interest rates are not negative. Through various jiggery-pokery, however, we are however at the point where investors are pretty much paying the government to borrow.

Many economies are largely a closed system; as every seller must have a buyer and every lender a borrower, the key to reducing government debt is really for other parts of the economy to spend: so, businesses and households. Obviously, mid-covid, this isn't happening. But prop the companies up during the squeeze, they'll spend again on the other side. One might note that substantial sections of the population (like me) have stored up lots of money because there's so little to spend it on. A chunk of it pays down my debts, and when the clouds clear I'll spend a chunk of it. So also it theoretically should be with companies.

In terms of high net worth individuals, I think they need to be squeezed so the trillions and trillions of assets that they've parked around the globe are redistributed into something more useful than Tesla's obscene overvaluation. Although honestly, I think the tech firms are currently a bubble, and that'll burst soon enough anyway. It partly reflects the fact there's so little else to do with the money, given so much economic activity has paused or shrunk.

There is no point pulling on a dead horse or delaying the inevatible. People who lost their job or small company could have gotten a form of basic income for a year or whatever time and it could have been accomplished for chump change. I guarantee you all those billions that governments loaned are wasted. What point is it to make people lose on their savings when there is already so much money in circulation that even large investors say that it is more than enough? That banks have to stash money at the central banks at huge costs? The central banks are completely out of touch. They are wasting all that money in an economy that no longer exists. I'm not surprised bitcoins are so expensive because the monetary policy is complete whack.

All that the suppression of interest rates have done is make housing costs ridiculously expensive and unaffordable for most. The excess money has to find a destination and a lot of that is in inflated property prices. How can people lose their jobs yet living costs and housing costs continue to increase exponentially? How can the economy tank yet speculation at the stock exchange is at an all time high? It is simple, the economy is mostly independent from the workforce or people's spending habits. The sad thing is that those who suffer the most from the coronavirus; small business, the unemployed and people searching for housing actually benefit the least from all those government loans.
I partially disagree. Take hotels.

Covid kills tourism, and let's imagine the hotels are left to die. Then, when covid ends, people want to go on holiday: and there are no hotels. So tourism is still dead until new hotels are set up: but this takes time. Paperwork, buying equipment, hiring staff, training, etc. Things recover much faster if the hotels are not left to go bust in the first place with everything in place to pick up and carry on. The same applies to pretty much any industry. There is clearly a logic to propping firms up as well as welfare.

But I agree that the current cheap credit model is a bust, and a tactic dying even as it's still staggering along. It is undoubtedly true that cheap interest rates encourage some less constructive use of cheap credit: property is one, but also pouring money into stock acquisitions. One might note that after the big crash in 2007, some of the banks which had managed to escape the carnage took loads of the government's money to buy back their own shares or go on an acquisition spree of other institutions instead of pumping it into the economy. I think we have to say they cannot be trusted to do what is in the interest of the wider economy, so they should not be the main vehicles of a recovery plan. But in large part this is really about wealth gap: money flooding into the hands of people who don't really need it more than it goes to the people who do. So tax it back off them. Redistribute. Metaphorically raid their many trillions in offshore bank accounts and send it back somewhere more societally useful.
 

stroopwafel

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This is plainly not true. firstly, countries have handled 150% GDP debt before, and can do again. Japan is already upwards of 200% right now. Secondly, with a balanced budget, 2% GDP growth and 2% inflation will decrease national debt about 4% a year. That would mean most countries could be well out of danger in ten years (even with a recession) and looking pretty healthy in twenty. I also would not underestimate the ability of countries to simply print money to pay off national debt (although really that ends up just a form of inflation). Of course, I'm not sure countries can even manage that, which is why I think they'll need to tax.
I don't think the Japan scenario is something to envy. They are completely at the mercy of the capital markets and it has kept the country in perpetual stagnation. You also forget the demographic trends. We are becoming geriatric countries and there is a limit to our growth potential. I also say this is a good thing if you consider the state of the environment. But still the reality is that welfare and healthcare costs will continue to exponentially increase so how do you reconcile that with a huge state deficit when there are fewer younger people around without losing faith of the capital markets? Similarly like Japan with an appeal for immigration but in western countries this has already proven to be a powder keg. Brexit, Trump, Pegida etc. With corporations and billionaires ofcourse all being huge proponents of immigration. Not to mention the necessary budget cuts and who will suffer the most from that? Like you also said inflation already led to ballooned property and index prices which further adds to the financial time bomb.