Race prospective from America to France and the lefts culture clash

[Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)]

We don't have discussions here anymore, so let's do one

Will American Ideas Tear France Apart? Some of Its Leaders Think So (Published 2021)

Politicians and prominent intellectuals say social theories from the United States on race, gender and post-colonialism are a threat to French identity and the French republic.

www.nytimes.com

The article talks about a culture war that's happening in France right now, particularly on the subject of "woke" culture. mainly being too much influence by America, which some French see is as degrading there left.

The article was an interesting read and I suggest you look at it. Considering there's a lot of Europeans on here I would like to get their perspective on this mainly on the difference between European and American left.

 

[Hawki]

I can't help but marvel at the irony that postmodernism more or less has its origins in France, but now the country is afraid of spinoffs of the theory that the country itself gave birth to.

Anyway, I won't comment too much on the differences between the European and American left, only that as far as I can tell, the American left is further to the right than the European left - as in, the Democrats are more centre-right with a progressive wing, whereas in Europe and places like Canada, Australia, and NZ, you can get genuine centre-left parties. But I will say that the "woke" ideas that have proliferated in the US over the last half-decade have made their way to Oz, just not to the same extent.

And to stake my flag in the ground, yes, racism is bad, yes, racism is an issue, no, Australia isn't doing enough to deal with it, especially in regards to indigenous Australians. I'll also say that I don't think wokeism/CRT is a constructive way of dealing with it either. So yes, racism is the worse 'ism,' doesn't mean wokeism gets an automatic pass.

 

[Agema]

The article talks about a culture war that's happening in France right now, particularly on the subject of "woke" culture. mainly being too much influence by America, which some French see is as degrading there left.

The article was an interesting read and I suggest you look at it. Considering there's a lot of Europeans on here I would like to get their perspective on this mainly on the difference between European and American left.

Why restrict this to the left?

The power of US culture is enormous, and I can't say I'm particularly happy about the erosion of my country's independent national character in any aspect, becoming homogenised and increasingly subsumed into US culture. It's not that I dislike the USA, I just think there's a lot to cherish about our own. In the political sphere, I think there is a genuine concern that by dumbly importing US political arguments, we start thinking about our country's problems in the context of a different country with different circumstances, traditions, laws.

 

[deleted20220709]

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[Agema]

This is arguably a problem in Sweden, where both sides of the political spectrum were quick to adopt BLM and anti-BLM rhetoric in the weeks after it started in the USA. And while Sweden has problems with racism still and occasionally with cop brutality, it is nowhere near the level of the USA so it all becomes silly when various pundits try to make it seem as if Sweden has a police force hunting down black people for sport or as if Swedish police needs to be allowed more leeway in using violence, when they rarely have to escalate beyond holds today.

I have a similar feeling about BLM in Britain. Not that I think black people don't face discrimination - especially from the police, and there is certainly evidence to support black people dying in police custody proportionally more than whites in the UK. I just think that as a copycat movement so heavily borrowing from the USA it doesn't have an organic engagement with British society.

 

[Cheetodust]

Why restrict this to the left?

The power of US culture is enormous, and I can't say I'm particularly happy about the erosion of my country's independent national character in any aspect, becoming homogenised and increasingly subsumed into US culture. It's not that I dislike the USA, I just think there's a lot to cherish about our own. In the political sphere, I think there is a genuine concern that by dumbly importing US political arguments, we start thinking about our country's problems in the context of a different country with different circumstances, traditions, laws.

A Krispy Kreme opened just outside the city a couple years ago. 24 hour drive through. The traffic made the entire area a fucking car park. For a shit donut.

A young man was shot recently by the police. Everyone reacts like it's normal and doesn't raise any questions. He was the 10th person in 15 years to be shot by police and the second who didn't have a gun and the other had a suspected hostage. Thanks to america we act like police shootings are just a normal thing that happens.

We have ridiculous arguments about free speech where we act of like the american ideal is universal.

We've bought into anti-socialist bollocks even though every easter we celebrate a group of socialists who attempted to liberate our country with the aim of establishing a socialist state.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Same problem in Australia. Trump has given legitimacy to the right (and to the incompetent), and activists are protesting about problems they see on TV without considering if they're the same here.

 

[Agema]

A Krispy Kreme opened just outside the city a couple years ago. 24 hour drive through. The traffic made the entire area a fucking car park. For a shit donut.

I think that's the core achievement of Starbucks, and more so its second-rate UK imitatori, Costa. It's not that people who go there particularly like coffee, it's that coffee has been very effectively marketed to them as exciting, modern and aspirational and it's full of satisfying fats, so they'll fork out a gazillion pounds for their mildly coffee-flavoured milk drinks.

It also annoys me enormously because the absurd prices and systems for coffee mean the same cafes grotesquely overprice tea despite not even making it properly. Pour in boiling water, brew for 3-5 mins (2 if you're in a hurry), don't put the milk in until it's brewed: it's not tricky. There is no hell deep and torturous enough for people who mess up a good cup of tea, especially if they charge you for it.

 

[Cheetodust]

I think that's the core achievement of Starbucks, and more so its second-rate UK imitatori, Costa. It's not that people who go there particularly like coffee, it's that coffee has been very effectively marketed to them as exciting, modern and aspirational and it's full of satisfying fats, so they'll fork out a gazillion pounds for their mildly coffee-flavoured milk drinks.

It also annoys me enormously because the absurd prices and systems for coffee mean the same cafes grotesquely overprice tea despite not even making it properly. Pour in boiling water, brew for 3-5 mins (2 if you're in a hurry), don't put the milk in until it's brewed: it's not tricky. There is no hell deep and torturous enough for people who mess up a good cup of tea, especially if they charge you for it.

I dunno. Similar thing happened when five guys came to ireland. We just see american culture/consumerism as aspirational I think.

Honestly even as a barista who's worked in specialty coffee for years I have a big problem with tea. I have spent a lot of time and money studying coffee. The amount of geography and chemistry I have learned over the years is more than I ever learned in school. I think charging the same for tea as coffee is absolute bullshit. I put a bag in water and give it to you. I'm barely needed in that process. Especially when places use literally just mssive catering boxes of the tea bags you buy in the supermarket.

 

[XsjadoBlayde]

I think that's the core achievement of Starbucks, and more so its second-rate UK imitatori, Costa. It's not that people who go there particularly like coffee, it's that coffee has been very effectively marketed to them as exciting, modern and aspirational and it's full of satisfying fats, so they'll fork out a gazillion pounds for their mildly coffee-flavoured milk drinks.

It also annoys me enormously because the absurd prices and systems for coffee mean the same cafes grotesquely overprice tea despite not even making it properly. Pour in boiling water, brew for 3-5 mins (2 if you're in a hurry), don't put the milk in until it's brewed: it's not tricky. There is no hell deep and torturous enough for people who mess up a good cup of tea, especially if they charge you for it.

They've gotten away with a lot of awful influence over our workings already, but messing with our tea is too far beyond the pale. They made it personal!

 

[tstorm823]

I dunno. Similar thing happened when five guys came to ireland. We just see american culture/consumerism as aspirational I think.

Ok, you're not gonna see me defend Krispy Kreme or Starbucks, but I've gotta defend Five Guys. Sometimes, you just want the greasiest cheeseburger on the market with a gluttonous helping of fries scooped directly into the bag. It's possibly the best "I worked so hard today I didn't get a chance to eat for the last 10 hours" chain.

 

[Cheetodust]

Ok, you're not gonna see me defend Krispy Kreme or Starbucks, but I've gotta defend Five Guys. Sometimes, you just want the greasiest cheeseburger on the market with a gluttonous helping of fries scooped directly into the bag. It's possibly the best "I worked so hard today I didn't get a chance to eat for the last 10 hours" chain.

I actually don't hate 5 guys, they're pretty good actually. My issue is more value for money. I can get much better burgers from Dash Burger or Bunsen for the same price or cheaper even. If five guys was like 2 or 3 quid cheaper I would eat there. I dunno how it's priced in the states though.

 

[Hawki]

The power of US culture is enormous, and I can't say I'm particularly happy about the erosion of my country's independent national character in any aspect, becoming homogenised and increasingly subsumed into US culture. It's not that I dislike the USA, I just think there's a lot to cherish about our own. In the political sphere, I think there is a genuine concern that by dumbly importing US political arguments, we start thinking about our country's problems in the context of a different country with different circumstances, traditions, laws.

I get what you're getting at, but I'm very wary of going down this path, regardless as to what country you're singling out. Just recently, came across a comment that Ladakh (in India) should make traditional dress mandatory to preserve their culture. I mean, really? Engage in your own culture all you want, but cultures have constantly shifted throughout history and been influenced by outside forces - trying to fight that is a fool's errand. It's part of the reason why I have little time for the concept of "cultural appropriation," when that's been going on since the dawn of time.

Also, while I agree that US culture is ascendant in the world today, British culture has made its mark on history. I mean, I'm typing this from Australia after all. I don't think there's much risk of British culture fading in any significant manner.

I have a similar feeling about BLM in Britain. Not that I think black people don't face discrimination - especially from the police, and there is certainly evidence to support black people dying in police custody proportionally more than whites in the UK. I just think that as a copycat movement so heavily borrowing from the USA it doesn't have an organic engagement with British society.

Looking at the stats, in the UK, if you're black, you're about 3 times more likely to be arrested, but if you're white, you're 25% more likely to die in prison.

Make of that what you will.

As for the UK BLM movement, I don't doubt there's some level of discrimination, but on the other, something that comes to mind is the repeated chants of "hands up, don't shoot," in a society where police don't carry firearms, and where about three people are killed by police each year. The chant makes sense in the US, where police shootings come to 1000-1200 per year, but in the UK? Not so much.

We have ridiculous arguments about free speech where we act of like the american ideal is universal.

I don't think freedom of speech is "the" American ideal, even if it's an established one. But how is freedom of speech bad in any context?

Same problem in Australia. Trump has given legitimacy to the right (and to the incompetent), and activists are protesting about problems they see on TV without considering if they're the same here.

Really?

Trump's definitely emboldened people on the right here - our most recent example were the MAGA wearing idiots on Australia Day (and for those outside Oz, it's explicitly "Make America Great Again, not Australia," but these were like, one to two people at any given time. I will grant that the Nazi stunt awhile ago was an issue, and I had the great 'pleasure' of finding a Nazi sticker at a bus stop in my neighbourhood (which I ripped off in case you're wondering).

On the other, despite what some people say, ScoMo isn't Trump, and the LNP is centre-right, not far-right, and has done a good job with Covid, unlike Trump. Pauline Hanson slithers out of her rock every so often, but is forgotten. Fraser Anning had his time in the spotlight and was sent packing.

I don't want to downplay the threat of far-right violence here, but the far-right has never made it into power. We don't have a Trump in a position of power. The Trumps in parliment are well to the fringe, and whatever you think of the LNP, they're at least competent. ScoMo can at least string two sentences together.

I think that's the core achievement of Starbucks, and more so its second-rate UK imitatori, Costa. It's not that people who go there particularly like coffee, it's that coffee has been very effectively marketed to them as exciting, modern and aspirational and it's full of satisfying fats, so they'll fork out a gazillion pounds for their mildly coffee-flavoured milk drinks.

This isn't a response to this post per se, but I've never really had a problem with the idea of chain stores - of McDonalds, of Starbucks, or anything.

People will decry "Americanization" or "globalization." However, you're under no obligation to purchase stuff from them. If there was a situation where there was nothing but these stores, maybe, but I've never seen a McDonalds or whatever and been totally deprived of alternatives. Like, if I'm selling you stuff, and people buy my stuff, so I can therefore sell more stuff, then what's the harm bar some abstract concept of culture? Yes, I've uttered a capitalist idea that dates back to Adam Smith, but I'd argue that the concept itself is sound.

 

[stroopwafel]

Yep,the internet homogenized everything into one giant mono culture. If you combine it with the fact brick & mortar is no longer profitable with every city having the exact same chain stores repeated it becomes a bit soulless. Authenticity is slowly being erased in exchange for corporate hegemony and group think. America's issues and culture are universal. MeToo, BLM, identity politics. It really doesn't matter what, it's just lifted wholesale.

I'm not surprised the French in particular try to resist this but it's ultimately impossible to wind back the clock. I think a similar nostalgia to a bygone era also contributed to Brexit. Lots of countries are struggling with the alienating forces of globalization.

 

[Agema]

I get what you're getting at, but I'm very wary of going down this path, regardless as to what country you're singling out. Just recently, came across a comment that Ladakh (in India) should make traditional dress mandatory to preserve their culture. I mean, really? Engage in your own culture all you want, but cultures have constantly shifted throughout history and been influenced by outside forces - trying to fight that is a fool's errand. It's part of the reason why I have little time for the concept of "cultural appropriation," when that's been going on since the dawn of time.

Yes, there are limits to what you can do. I don't see the point in banning anything, but I think a country can certainly consider vigorously investing in its own culture. The UK used to have a film industry, once. Now its film industry is making movies for Hollywood. And what we get from Hollywood in return is, well. I enjoyed the animated 101 Dalmatians as a child. I saw the live action remake about 20 years back, still faithfully set in the UK, but for some inexplicable reason now with skunks and raccoons. Because in Disney's vision of the universality of human experience, everywhere is the USA.

I think cultural appropriation is a valid concept - just not in 95% of the cases the claim is made. I don't care about white people with cornrows or Grimes wearing a kimono, but I think there are clearly instances where people have done some deeply disrespectful things.

As for the UK BLM movement, I don't doubt there's some level of discrimination, but on the other, something that comes to mind is the repeated chants of "hands up, don't shoot," in a society where police don't carry firearms, and where about three people are killed by police each year. The chant makes sense in the US, where police shootings come to 1000-1200 per year, but in the UK? Not so much.

I might be mixing something up here, but if I remember rightly UK BLM ended up trying to disrupt an airport to protest black people being at greater risk of respiratory pollution. Quite likely they are. But I can't help but feel that is the manufactured stunt of activists who really do not have the pulse of the community.

 

[Hawki]

Yep,the internet homogenized everything into one giant mono culture. If you combine it with the fact brick & mortar is no longer profitable with every city having the exact same chain stores repeated it becomes a bit soulless. Authenticity is slowly being erased in exchange for corporate hegemony and group think. America's issues and culture are universal. MeToo, BLM, identity politics. It really doesn't matter what, it's just lifted wholesale.

I'm not surprised the French in particular try to resist this but it's ultimately impossible to wind back the clock. I think a similar nostalgia to a bygone era also contributed to Brexit. Lots of countries are struggling with the alienating forces of globalization.

In regards to the Internet, a monoculture is debatable. I mean, we're on a site right now that's primarily dedicated to videogames. SOmewhere else, people are on another site dedicated to sports, and another site dedicated to cars, and so on. The Internet's arguably fragmented into sub-cultures.

Also, I'd argue that the Internet is easily a net positive for humanity. I mean, consdier the spread of knowledge, of ideas, of everything. We're doing something that would have been considered the realm of science fiction once. Asimov wrote Foundation for instance, and Wikipedia is arguably his titular Foundation, only millennia early.

Yes, there are limits to what you can do. I don't see the point in banning anything, but I think a country can certainly consider vigorously investing in its own culture. The UK used to have a film industry, once. Now its film industry is making movies for Hollywood. And what we get from Hollywood in return is, well. I enjoyed the animated 101 Dalmatians as a child. I saw the live action remake about 20 years back, still faithfully set in the UK, but for some inexplicable reason now with skunks and raccoons. Because in Disney's vision of the universality of human experience, everywhere is the USA.

By all means invest in one's own film industry. Question is, should countries follow China's lead, and restrict the number of foreign films?

I don't know if this is the same in the UK, but here, for instance, working in libraries, it's common for books to be marked as "Australian fiction" - either with the Australian flag, or if it's by an indigenous author, with the Aboriginal flag. I've always had some kind of skepticism towards this - what, is there something inherent about this kind of fiction bar its geography? Should I be expected to support it simply because of its point of origin?

Also, as for 101 Dalmations, is a shift in location really that much of an issue? It was never central to the original story. Yes, granted, Hollywood films may transplant a setting into an American one, but that kind of comes with the territory. For instance, after Game of Thrones, Turkey and India made their own adaptations, set in the context of their own histories. Is that a bad thing?

I think cultural appropriation is a valid concept - just not in 95% of the cases the claim is made. I don't care about white people with cornrows or Grimes wearing a kimono, but I think there are clearly instances where people have done some deeply disrespectful things.

There's definitely cases where cultural appropriation can be offensive, and at times, with intent. I'm not disputing that. But I also agree with the 95% figure in theory.

Of course, problem with wokeness is that it declares "intent doesn't matter, impact does." Jeffrey Toobin is the latest example of this.

So on one hand, if person says "I think what you're doing is offensive," then no, don't dismiss it out of hand. On the other, I'd argue that there's a distinction in intent that should always be considered.

 

[Cheetodust]

I don't think freedom of speech is "the" American ideal, even if it's an established one. But how is freedom of speech bad in any context?

What I meant was that every country has an understandimg of free speech and many of them differ. American's have a very radical view of free speech but still believes things like slander or incitement of violence are bad, even if it's difficult to agree what actually qualifies.

Ireland has always had pretty restrictive rules around speech. Often too restrictive in many areas. Technically me being publicly an anarchist and speaking against the very idea of the state is illegal. We still also had blasphemy laws in the constitution until 2018. So our speech has largely become freer over time. But you hear people argue about "whatever happened to free speech" even though the notion of free speech they're talking about is the American one which we have never had here. Not saying they're right or wrong for wanting that level of free speech, that's a different debate, but the idea that we had that and it has been eroded is absurd.

 

[tstorm823]

I actually don't hate 5 guys, they're pretty good actually. My issue is more value for money. I can get much better burgers from Dash Burger or Bunsen for the same price or cheaper even. If five guys was like 2 or 3 quid cheaper I would eat there. I dunno how it's priced in the states though.

I imagine it's about the same. They aren't particularly cheap here either. You pay for your hamburger to drip off the bun.

 

[Cheetodust]

I imagine it's about the same. They aren't particularly cheap here either. You pay for your hamburger to drip off the bun.

So we pay 9.45 for a cheeseburger in five guys here, which seems to be nearly $11.50. The two places I mentioned are about the same but much higher quality (and just as filthy). My local five guys is also like right in between those two other places, makes it harder for me to ever eat there.

 

[stroopwafel]

In regards to the Internet, a monoculture is debatable. I mean, we're on a site right now that's primarily dedicated to videogames. SOmewhere else, people are on another site dedicated to sports, and another site dedicated to cars, and so on. The Internet's arguably fragmented into sub-cultures.

Also, I'd argue that the Internet is easily a net positive for humanity. I mean, consdier the spread of knowledge, of ideas, of everything. We're doing something that would have been considered the realm of science fiction once. Asimov wrote Foundation for instance, and Wikipedia is arguably his titular Foundation, only millennia early.

I think you conflate 'topics of interest' with culture. I'd say the universal presence of MeToo, BLM, identity politics etc even on a niche forum like this is ample evidence that those are the dominant cultural voices. And that they are most definitely universal throughout the western world because of the hegemony of American culture and the reason that the ideas are adapted wholesale is, again, evidence of this.

I do agree that the internet is definitely a nett positive. It opened so many opportunities, access to information and lines of communication that would have been unimaginable just half a century prior. It enriches people's lives tremendously. It's not the internet that's the problem it's how it's often utilized. Be that the often negative effects of social media, proliferation of conspiracy theories or indeed cultural homogenization.