French Schoolgirl admits she lied about her teachers action. A lie that led to him being killed in a "Jihadi" beheading

[Casual Shinji]

You still have yet to explain how she IS a victim of religion. She lied because she was absent to class and used religious persecution as an excuse.

That was the explaination. Instead of having a start at life outside of religious fundamentalism she was raised in an environment that very much was; that's how she's a victim. And just because she's a victim doesn't exempt her of guilt.

 

[Gordon_4]

She's also 13, no offense to 13 year olds but they are very much still children. The fact that she got suspended for missing classes and was ready to invent an extraordinary lie to cover it all suggests that social services ought to take a long, hard look on what her home situation is like. The biggest victim is obviously Paty, but this girl doesn't exactly seem as if she's having a cozy life.

Also there's the not too small fact that her father is responsible for his own actions. Teenagers fuck up, lie to cover up that fuck up, and then lie even more to maintain that cover about almost anything you can imagine: sex, drugs, rock and roll, wagging class, getting abused, being an abuser etc ad infinitum. Pick a subject and some teenager has ineptly tried to CIA their way out of it. Very seldomly does this end in murder. Even less so does it end in murder committed by someone else.

 

[Agema]

She got suspended from school because of her own actions, then lied to her parents so she wouldn't get in trouble and blamed an innocent person who then got murdered.

Yeah, that's probably not an outcome she expected or wanted but she's also not a victim.

She's 13. People that age can understand right and wrong, but they are also particularly naive, inexperienced, easily impressionable, vulnerable to pressure.

The story as written is that she felt pressured by her classmates, and reading between the lines by her father, who seems very much like he had an axe to grind. Many children will probably buckle under the pressure of one of the (usually) two adults that they have most been conditioned to trust, respect, obey; or under their peers with a child's social desire to be respected, liked, and admired. In particular here, I'm thinking about what her father might be like and what an adverse influence he may be.

All sorts of dodgy accusations on all manner of topics occur all the time, including from adults. There also exists the context that the teacher really did show those cartoons. So whilst she lied, the base incident of showing pictures Muslims may find offensive did occur, so it's not a fabrication from nothing, either. It is tragic because it ended up in a death, but hindsight can mislead us. This in no way makes what she did okay, but this sort of thing is rarely going to end in catastrophe. There could not have been a reasonable expectation of such a terrible end by this girl at the point she lied: I would guess she probably just thought the teacher would be told off and have to stop doing it, and she'd win approval from her classmates and father.

I think we need to remember that we all do things which, on rare events, go horribly wrong. For instance, you can see people in cars obviously texting or chatting on a mobile as they drive, it is incredibly common. Many of us here have probably done it - maybe even just one call in twenty when we think it's urgent, and we try to end it ASAP. We KNOW it is wrong, that it can distract us and we can kill someone as a result... and yet we still do it, because 99.999% it doesn't go horribly wrong. We do this is in a zillion other ways, where we choose something we know to be a bit wrong, but it's easy / convenient, or we think it will impress, or whatever else, and we accept it because we don't think they will go catastrophically wrong. We need to remember that sort of context when we judge the 0.001%. Because we have done the sorts of things they did too: they just got the hugely unlucky result we didn't. They are not necessarily any worse people than we are.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

"Her parent is a fundie, that created this enviroment in the first place" doesn't count?

Do you not understand the basic idea of correlation not being causation? Since when was it that only religious people cared about their students attending school?

 

[happyninja42]

Do you not understand the basic idea of correlation not being causation? Since when was it that only religious people cared about their students attending school?

Nobody fucking said only religious people care about students attending school. But fundamentalist religious people DO tend to be the ones that will cut someone's head off for blasphemy. Given the religious background it's highly likely that he was going to be very strict to her, and punish her in one of the many terrible ways sanctioned by most religions, and she, being a scared kid, did what pretty much any kid does, try and find a way to avoid punishment for something. The fact that she chose "he drew a cartoon of muhammed" is especially smart on her part, because THAT is the kind of thing, that would pretty much instantly redirect the father's anger from her, to someone else. Which was her whole point. She knew her dad would stop being mad at her for leaving a class if they were blaspheming in it, so in her mind "crisis averted." I doubt she expected anyone to go so far as to behead the guy. She probably thought and hoped it would just lead to some angry words and shouting from the parents to the staff, and eventually blow over, and she'd avoid punishment for skipping class.

So yes, her parent's fundamentalism created the environment that lead to a guy being beheaded over a fucking cartoon (that didn't even exist apparently).

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Nobody fucking said only religious people care about students attending school. But fundamentalist religious people DO tend to be the ones that will cut someone's head off for blasphemy. Given the religious background it's highly likely that he was going to be very strict to her, and punish her in one of the many terrible ways sanctioned by most religions, and she, being a scared kid, did what pretty much any kid does, try and find a way to avoid punishment for something. The fact that she chose "he drew a cartoon of muhammed" is especially smart on her part, because THAT is the kind of thing, that would pretty much instantly redirect the father's anger from her, to someone else. Which was her whole point. She knew her dad would stop being mad at her for leaving a class if they were blaspheming in it, so in her mind "crisis averted." I doubt she expected anyone to go so far as to behead the guy. She probably thought and hoped it would just lead to some angry words and shouting from the parents to the staff, and eventually blow over, and she'd avoid punishment for skipping class.

So yes, her parent's fundamentalism created the environment that lead to a guy being beheaded over a fucking cartoon (that didn't even exist apparently).

So you think that if this family practiced Buddhism that they'd want to cut the teachers head off? Also, where are you getting your details for what kind of person this girl is? The article in the OP is pretty vague, are you basing it off of something are making assumptions? Also, are you forgetting all the shitty things people do that are secular that would lead to the girl doing this? The part of this that is different and IS due to the Muslim aspects is the call for decapitating the teacher, which is evil and wrong, but a teen lying to their parents for fear of what they'd think of them or punishment is not unique to the religious, it's in all of humanity.

 

[Schadrach]

For instance, you can see people in cars obviously texting or chatting on a mobile as they drive, it is incredibly common. Many of us here have probably done it - maybe even just one call in twenty when we think it's urgent, and we try to end it ASAP. We KNOW it is wrong, that it can distract us and we can kill someone as a result... and yet we still do it, because 99.999% it doesn't go horribly wrong.

I have a mount for my phone on my car dash (convenient for when you need GPS), and when I get a text while driving, I tap the text, then the call button at the top of my texting app, phone is connected to bluetooth so I can hear and talk to them just like they were sitting in the car with me and I tell them I'm driving so I can't read their text, and ask what they needed. Don't have to take my eyes off the road to do it, it's about as distracting as changing the radio station. Frankly, if Google Assistant would consistently do what I want when I ask it to "call whoever just texted me", I'd do that instead. If they don't answer the phone, then whatever they need is unimportant enough that it can wait until I'm off the road.

 

[tstorm823]

Even kids lying to their parents so as not to disappoint them is not because kids are born that way, but because they're raised that way.

Raising kids that desire the approval of their parents is generally a good thing. Obviously not in the case of every parent, but generally.

 

[Agema]

Raising kids that desire the approval of their parents is generally a good thing. Obviously not in the case of every parent, but generally.

Raising kids that desire the approval of their parents is only as good as their parents.

 

[tstorm823]

Raising kids that desire the approval of their parents is only as good as their parents.

Only if people are the same level of goodness as the things they find commendable. I'd suggest the average person fails short of where they want people to be, so it's not hard to imagine a child being better to gain the approval of a parent who isn't that good themselves.

 

[Adam Jensen]

Well, she's clearly a little shit, but at least she's 13 so she's got an excuse for being a little shit. Those big shits who do the actual beheading because of a cartoon have no excuse.

 

[Gordon_4]

Well, she's clearly a little shit, but at least she's 13 so she's got an excuse for being a little shit. Those big shits who do the actual beheading because of a cartoon have no excuse.

And boom goes the dynamite.

 

[CM156]

She's 13. People that age can understand right and wrong, but they are also particularly naive, inexperienced, easily impressionable, vulnerable to pressure.

I was very angry when I saw the headline, but I think her being 13 recontectualizes it. I wouldn't go so far as to call her a victim, but I do think there's a certain amount of this she can't really be blamed for. It reminds me of a situation in the USA from a while ago: the Tawana Brawley case.

I mean, it's not like she ran off to join a terrorist group like Shamima Begum.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

She's 13. People that age can understand right and wrong, but they are also particularly naive, inexperienced, easily impressionable, vulnerable to pressure.

The story as written is that she felt pressured by her classmates, and reading between the lines by her father, who seems very much like he had an axe to grind. Many children will probably buckle under the pressure of one of the (usually) two adults that they have most been conditioned to trust, respect, obey; or under their peers with a child's social desire to be respected, liked, and admired. In particular here, I'm thinking about what her father might be like and what an adverse influence he may be.

All sorts of dodgy accusations on all manner of topics occur all the time, including from adults. There also exists the context that the teacher really did show those cartoons. So whilst she lied, the base incident of showing pictures Muslims may find offensive did occur, so it's not a fabrication from nothing, either. It is tragic because it ended up in a death, but hindsight can mislead us. This in no way makes what she did okay, but this sort of thing is rarely going to end in catastrophe. There could not have been a reasonable expectation of such a terrible end by this girl at the point she lied: I would guess she probably just thought the teacher would be told off and have to stop doing it, and she'd win approval from her classmates and father.

I think we need to remember that we all do things which, on rare events, go horribly wrong. For instance, you can see people in cars obviously texting or chatting on a mobile as they drive, it is incredibly common. Many of us here have probably done it - maybe even just one call in twenty when we think it's urgent, and we try to end it ASAP. We KNOW it is wrong, that it can distract us and we can kill someone as a result... and yet we still do it, because 99.999% it doesn't go horribly wrong. We do this is in a zillion other ways, where we choose something we know to be a bit wrong, but it's easy / convenient, or we think it will impress, or whatever else, and we accept it because we don't think they will go catastrophically wrong. We need to remember that sort of context when we judge the 0.001%. Because we have done the sorts of things they did too: they just got the hugely unlucky result we didn't. They are not necessarily any worse people than we are.

I'm not saying I completely blame her, or that any kind of reasonable person would have seen the murder coming.

I said that she's not a victim, and she isn't.

 

[MrCalavera]

Do you not understand the basic idea of correlation not being causation?

Do you?
Or do you want to argue now that girls' environment had no bearing on her coming up with this particular lie? That lie about an islamophobic teacher would be easy to sell to conservative, religious parents?

Since when was it that only religious people cared about their students attending school?

Please show me where i, or anyone else for that matter, said that in this thread.

 

[laggyteabag]

I said that she's not a victim, and she isn't.

Of course she is a victim. Obviously not the victim, because she is still alive, but she is still a victim, nonetheless.

She told a lie to get out of trouble, because that is what kids do. Then her lie span out of control, due to the actions of others, which then reached the ears of some religious zealot lunatic, who killed her teacher - who was then shot by police.

She never could have reasonably imagined that lying to her parents about school, could have resulted in the deaths of two people.

Unfortunately, she is now going to have to live with the fact that her little lie was the catalyst of these events, and this is going to be incredibly traumatic for her - especially because she is just thirteen years old.

She is going to be in therapy for years.

She is a victim.

 

[Agema]

I said that she's not a victim, and she isn't.

It is not unusual for a child to lie to their parents in the hope of evading punishment. But then I read comments like that she was "devoted" to her father, that her father apparently ran the campaign anyway despite knowing the real reason his daughter was suspended, and disingenuously threw his daughter under the bus when the teacher was killed by blaming her lies. With that context, I suspect her reported "devotion" might be a polite way of saying "fear of a domineering parent".

What kind of father do you think he is, and what impact might that have on her?

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They might not mean to but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

 

[BrawlMan]

Of course she is a victim. Obviously not the victim, because she is still alive, but she is still a victim, nonetheless.

She told a lie to get out of trouble, because that is what kids do. Then her lie span out of control, due to the actions of others, which then reached the ears of some religious zealot lunatic, who killed her teacher - who was then shot by police.

She never could have reasonably imagined that lying to her parents about school, could have resulted in the deaths of two people.

Unfortunately, she is now going to have to live with the fact that her little lie was the catalyst of these events, and this is going to be incredibly traumatic for her - especially because she is just thirteen years old.

She is going to be in therapy for years.

She is a victim.

Took the words right out of my mouth. She may not be the victim, but she is a victim. She does shoulder some responsibility, but I mostly blame her father. If anything, her father should be facing charges and suffer some type of punishment for his actions. Using and blaming your child like that. Dude deserves to have his testicles removed. what you said, this is going to haunt her for the rest of her life, while the father doesn't feel like God damn thing.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Of course she is a victim. Obviously not the victim, because she is still alive, but she is still a victim, nonetheless.

She told a lie to get out of trouble, because that is what kids do. Then her lie span out of control, due to the actions of others, which then reached the ears of some religious zealot lunatic, who killed her teacher - who was then shot by police.

She never could have reasonably imagined that lying to her parents about school, could have resulted in the deaths of two people.

Unfortunately, she is now going to have to live with the fact that her little lie was the catalyst of these events, and this is going to be incredibly traumatic for her - especially because she is just thirteen years old.

She is going to be in therapy for years.

She is a victim.

Having to live with and deal with the consequences of your actions does not make you a victim. So far literally nothing bad has happened to her as a result of this.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Having to live with and deal with the consequences of your actions does not make you a victim. So far literally nothing bad has happened to her as a result of this.

Not to mention that we don't know if she even feels bad about what happened. She could be a decent person that is horrified at what her actions led to or she could be callous and doesn't think it means much to her, or maybe she didn't even like her teacher and doesn't care what happened to him.