11 times? Thats not self defence. Once would have been enough. Standing up to them is the right thing to do, but murdering the guy? Wow. But it looks like the kid warned him plenty first, so I don't know....
15-year old Stabs Bully 11 Times at Bus Stop, Gets Away With It
- Thread starter AndyFromMonday
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"This is not about the rights of criminals. It is your right to lead a life free of harassment by your neighbors. It is not your right to brutally murder your neighbors. This is why we have a police force and courts. They enforce the law, not the common citizen, who is prone to let anger make decisions for him. Perfect example? The story above. "
And we have many people who, using hindsight and personal bias, make judgements like the above as perfect examples of not knowing what they're talking about.
Again...murder...definitions...get it right. Stop using it like you're justified legally because you're not.
Also, I find it interesting that while everyone in the US is *legally entitled to defend themselves* and, there is also the legal existence of Citizen's Arrest, you are here saying that the 'common citizen' does not enforce the law.
Incorrect.
"No. Its quite simple. We do not tolerate bullying,"
Looks like none of those Police were anywhere in the Saavedra case, not-tolerating the bullying.
" and we do not tolerate people stabbing each other to death."
We also don't tolerate people being beaten to death. Indeed, we have the entire concept of Self Defense so that people can *stop themselves from being killed or grievously harmed in the absence of law enforcement officers*.
" It seems this time the first part of that got lost somewhere along the line in this case, which happens often, and thats something to work on. The solution to that, however, is not giving people the right to do whatever they please to people who wronged them. "
Let's take out 'wronged' and put in the Truth- 'In the process of being brutally assaulted by attackers who had publicly before witnesses stated their intention to cause grievous bodily harm, this youth defended himself with a very small knife and in the process caused fatal wounds'.
*That* is more accurate.
I don't call the political stance of 'protect the criminal at all costs' Enlightened.
"I find the idea that the current institutional and civic arrangements in Western countries somehow represent the views of the majority laughable, though. The power of corporate lobbyists and interest-based pressure groups have long since put paid to that."
...and in Eastern countries...Scandinavia...the Javanese Islands...pretty much everywhere.
"Oh yes. Just the other day, a friend was telling me about how bank lobbyists put a stop to anti-bullying campaigns. Its obviously in their best interests to keep bullying alive. (Sarcasm, in case you are not enlightened enough to tell.)"
This had...nothing whatsoever to do with this situation.
"But, you know what? Its fine. You will be delighted to hear that there are countries all over the world in which your ideas are the norm! Pay them a visit, you would love them! Turkey, Somalia, Kenya... The possibilities are endless! Have fun."
Oh, my friend. Thank you.
INDEED! Those countries are *amazing* examples of YOUR feelings in action! (Except Kenya, which I understand is pretty calm...so I'm not sure why you mentioned it.)
In Somalia, lots of people don't defend themselves with weapons! Have you noticed how well that's worked? I sure have!
"This is why we have a police force and courts. They enforce the law, not the common citizen, who is prone to let anger make decisions for him."
And in Somalia, they, too have 'police forces' and 'courts'! And the common citizen is absolutely restricted from making decisions of defense! In fact, if a Warlord discovers you even *have* a weapon, you can be summarily executed!
Sure, the 'common citizen' in Somalia is starving or joining bands of pirates to survive, but gosh at least they aren't doing anything crazy like taking the law into their own hands!
And we have many people who, using hindsight and personal bias, make judgements like the above as perfect examples of not knowing what they're talking about.
Again...murder...definitions...get it right. Stop using it like you're justified legally because you're not.
Also, I find it interesting that while everyone in the US is *legally entitled to defend themselves* and, there is also the legal existence of Citizen's Arrest, you are here saying that the 'common citizen' does not enforce the law.
Incorrect.
"No. Its quite simple. We do not tolerate bullying,"
Looks like none of those Police were anywhere in the Saavedra case, not-tolerating the bullying.
" and we do not tolerate people stabbing each other to death."
We also don't tolerate people being beaten to death. Indeed, we have the entire concept of Self Defense so that people can *stop themselves from being killed or grievously harmed in the absence of law enforcement officers*.
" It seems this time the first part of that got lost somewhere along the line in this case, which happens often, and thats something to work on. The solution to that, however, is not giving people the right to do whatever they please to people who wronged them. "
Let's take out 'wronged' and put in the Truth- 'In the process of being brutally assaulted by attackers who had publicly before witnesses stated their intention to cause grievous bodily harm, this youth defended himself with a very small knife and in the process caused fatal wounds'.
*That* is more accurate.
"Obviously not."
I don't call the political stance of 'protect the criminal at all costs' Enlightened.
"I find the idea that the current institutional and civic arrangements in Western countries somehow represent the views of the majority laughable, though. The power of corporate lobbyists and interest-based pressure groups have long since put paid to that."
...and in Eastern countries...Scandinavia...the Javanese Islands...pretty much everywhere.
"Oh yes. Just the other day, a friend was telling me about how bank lobbyists put a stop to anti-bullying campaigns. Its obviously in their best interests to keep bullying alive. (Sarcasm, in case you are not enlightened enough to tell.)"
This had...nothing whatsoever to do with this situation.
"But, you know what? Its fine. You will be delighted to hear that there are countries all over the world in which your ideas are the norm! Pay them a visit, you would love them! Turkey, Somalia, Kenya... The possibilities are endless! Have fun."
Oh, my friend. Thank you.
INDEED! Those countries are *amazing* examples of YOUR feelings in action! (Except Kenya, which I understand is pretty calm...so I'm not sure why you mentioned it.)
In Somalia, lots of people don't defend themselves with weapons! Have you noticed how well that's worked? I sure have!
"This is why we have a police force and courts. They enforce the law, not the common citizen, who is prone to let anger make decisions for him."
And in Somalia, they, too have 'police forces' and 'courts'! And the common citizen is absolutely restricted from making decisions of defense! In fact, if a Warlord discovers you even *have* a weapon, you can be summarily executed!
Sure, the 'common citizen' in Somalia is starving or joining bands of pirates to survive, but gosh at least they aren't doing anything crazy like taking the law into their own hands!
I've never been stabbed before, but I imagine after being stabbed, you would back the fuck off a little. I've heard it hurts. So unless the kid kept coming at him, holding a kife wound, I think it was a bit excessive.Mortai Gravesend said:
you say that as if he was thinking rationally. when someone pushes you to the edge, you practically black out with rage.Drop_D-Bombshell said:
three main things have to be taken into account, considering the kid he stabbed was his bully.
1. he was very scared of this person.
2. he hated this person more than anyone else in his life.
3. he couldnt take it anymore.
and you should also consider the fact that he was 14 years old at the time. you are explaining what would have been reasonable according to your own adult, non-bullied mind.
an emotionally damaged, underdeveloped mind doesnt function the same way.
the kid definitely needs to be subjected to therapy sessions, though.
Wait, does America(or Florida, whatever), not have a law against exessive self-defence?
'Cause eleven times is a lot.
'Cause eleven times is a lot.
A thug and his gang follow a smaller target with obvious intent to attack him, and the target actually fights back with enough force to end the confrontation?
Nothing to see here. I don't blame the judge for letting him off. This isn't a case of "kid overreacts to bullying" this is a case of someone being pursued and assaulted by several people and acting in self-defense.
Nothing to see here. I don't blame the judge for letting him off. This isn't a case of "kid overreacts to bullying" this is a case of someone being pursued and assaulted by several people and acting in self-defense.
That's one thing I don't get, we have on one hand people saying that "punching him back" would "deal with him" nicely, but on the other hand we have people who say things like this.Mortai Gravesend said:
What I don't understand is, of course, if the guy kept going on with the bullying even after being stabbed, what makes people think he'd of backed off after being just punched?
I don't know. I'm not a guy to get into fights a lot, and even now at 22 I'm not sure I could stop myself if I flew into a rage and started stabbing a guy in self-defense. The kid was probably scared more than he's ever been in his life, probably expecting the same thing to happen to him if he doesn't ensure that the guy doesn't get back up after his assault. The 11 stabbings probably happened within the space of half a minute. Considering what his mental state must have been, I can't say I blame him for getting too overzealous in defending himself.Vegosiux said:
I'd expect a trained soldier or police officer to understand that the criminal is detained after a shot to the leg. A 14-year old child, though? Hell no.
My initial reaction was disgust, I wondered how on earth the courts could find him not guilty but then after reading the story I wasn't so sure. 20 minutes has now passed since I read the story and i've thought long and hard on it and found parallels to what this kid endured in my own school life; like him I was bullied, like him I tried avoiding fights, like him I got angry enough to fight back and like him I attempted to stab my tormentors when they pushed me far enough.
Unlike him I didn't bring a knife with me, I used whatever weapon I could find at hand*, I never even imagined bringing a knife with me but then I don't think I was bullied nearly as much as Jorge was; I think he intended only to threaten** his bullies with the weapon and hopefully scare them off for good but when the bully attacked him he finally snapped and lashed out in much the same way as I did but unfortunately whilst holding a deadly weapon.
Im not trying to justify his actions, he did a terrible thing, but I don't think as a person he should be punished, he's probably already suffering enough with the knowledge of the crime he committed; what he really needs is to see a psychiatrist.
The big picture here that I hope people take away from this tragedy is that adults need to step in before it goes this far, it was obviously no secret what Jorge was going through and his school should have put a stop to it long before it got to this point.
[small]* Pencils, mostly.[/small]
[small]** It's still not a good thing but if you were bullied that badly you probably wouldn't be thinking straight either.[/small]
Unlike him I didn't bring a knife with me, I used whatever weapon I could find at hand*, I never even imagined bringing a knife with me but then I don't think I was bullied nearly as much as Jorge was; I think he intended only to threaten** his bullies with the weapon and hopefully scare them off for good but when the bully attacked him he finally snapped and lashed out in much the same way as I did but unfortunately whilst holding a deadly weapon.
Im not trying to justify his actions, he did a terrible thing, but I don't think as a person he should be punished, he's probably already suffering enough with the knowledge of the crime he committed; what he really needs is to see a psychiatrist.
The big picture here that I hope people take away from this tragedy is that adults need to step in before it goes this far, it was obviously no secret what Jorge was going through and his school should have put a stop to it long before it got to this point.
[small]* Pencils, mostly.[/small]
[small]** It's still not a good thing but if you were bullied that badly you probably wouldn't be thinking straight either.[/small]
