15-year old Stabs Bully 11 Times at Bus Stop, Gets Away With It

[senordesol]

Double Post

 

[Treblaine]

"Force must be met with force, even deadly force."

No. No it doesn't. There's always a way out. There's always an escape.

No there isn't. How can you say there is always a way to escape? This kid tried to avoid the abuse but they chased him down.

And I'm sorry but you speak in breathlessly naive term, as if a woman being attacked by a rapist supposed to just "deal with it" rather than fight back with lethal force? Submit at all costs? What about the other day the story on these forums of that woman cowing in her bedroom with her newborn baby as men with knives try to break in? She shot them.

Stabbing 11 times seems like a lot, but if it takes 11 stabs to end the assault then 11 stabs are what are justified. He didn't chase him down and attack him in the back where defenceless. Like the bully did. That would be revenge and lack of proportionality.

Remember this is a penknife in the hands of a frightened 14 year old boy. Not a Bowie knife in the hands of Rambo!

If this abused boy had just stabbed him once or twice, just enough to inflict a shallow wound, that would be the OPPOSITE of self defence. That would only antagonise him and alert him to his weapon. The bigger, stronger, more aggressive bully would take the knife off him and use it against him!

Self-defence is not about striking out of revenge nor proportionality, but is striking to stop the assault! Most likely the court found that the 11 stabs were inflicted while the boy was under sustained assault and that the strikes stopped when the thug turned away and retreated.

 

[rutger5000]

So how well do you know this case, how well do you known Italian law and how well do you understand modernday Napelian culture? So now think again about arguing with an Italian judge about an italian case.
Look I'm not saying that what the kid did was righ. What I'm saying is that one could hardly expect a 14 year old male to act better. He avoided the fight, showed that he was armed, and was attacked by multiple opponents. Look at it from his points of view, if those bullies wouldn't be scarred of by a knife, and there was no way to avoid the fight, then how badly were they planning to beat the boy. I would compare this to carrying a gun and being mugged, then pulling the gun and back away for the mugger, then if the mugger charges at you and then you empty a clip in him. Not what I would have done, but can hardly blame one for acting like that, especially if it's a 14 YEAR OLD MALE.
To summarize: Yes what Jorge did was wrong, yes there were better ways to handle the situation, but no you can not expect a scarred, threadened 14 year old male to respond any better. Like the judge said the kid rightfully feared for his life. I'm not saying there was a direct to his life, but it's quiet reasonable for a 14 year old to be scarred to dead in this situation.
Also he stabbed the guy 11 times, this only showed how scarred the kid was. Now I don't case the case either, but I trust the Judge to know it well enough after a 2day courtroom sitting. So if the Judge labbels it as self-defence, then I'll go with that.

 

[Nielas]

So how well do you know this case, how well do you known Italian law and how well do you understand modernday Napelian culture? So now think again about arguing with an Italian judge about an italian case.

This happened in Naples, Florida and not Naples, Italy.

 

[easternflame]

Warning for bullies. Suits me.

 

[Ian Lutz]

This just goes to show you how extreme the issue of bulling has gotten in recent years. It should be an outrage that he got let off without any kind of punishment. There are clearly other options when dealing with a bully, such as contact school administration, it is there for a reason!

 

[senordesol]

This just goes to show you how extreme the issue of bulling has gotten in recent years. It should be an outrage that he got let off without any kind of punishment. There are clearly other options when dealing with a bully, such as contact school administration, it is there for a reason!

How was he going to contact the school administrator when he was getting the shit kicked out of him on a public street?

 

[irishda]

"Force must be met with force, even deadly force."

No. No it doesn't. There's always a way out. There's always an escape.

No there isn't. How can you say there is always a way to escape? This kid tried to avoid the abuse but they chased him down.

And I'm sorry but you speak in breathlessly naive term, as if a woman being attacked by a rapist supposed to just "deal with it" rather than fight back with lethal force? Submit at all costs? What about the other day the story on these forums of that woman cowing in her bedroom with her newborn baby as men with knives try to break in? She shot them.

Escape doesn't always mean running away or submitting.

I would've agreed with the sentiment deadly force must be met with deadly force. People invading a person's home armed is another matter entirely. And in defending against a rapist, I would incline that his life is certainly not a priority either. But these weren't rapists or terrorists or even armed thugs. These were just bullies.

A lot of people are quick to point out that the defendant wasn't a trained assassin but a scared kid, and they forget the flipside of that. The bully wasn't some monster who ruined lives, it was also just some kid, probably a very insecure one at that too.

 

[Shycte]

This just goes to show you how extreme the issue of bulling has gotten in recent years. It should be an outrage that he got let off without any kind of punishment. There are clearly other options when dealing with a bully, such as contact school administration, it is there for a reason!

How was he going to contact the school administrator when he was getting the shit kicked out of him on a public street?

Obviously murder is the answer.

 

[Locke_Cole]

A lot of people are quick to point out that the defendant wasn't a trained assassin but a scared kid, and they forget the flipside of that. The bully wasn't some monster who ruined lives, it was also just some kid, probably a very insecure one at that too.

Bullies can and do ruin lives, psychological damage is no joke.

 

[irishda]

Hands and feet have the power but it's not necessarily the intent of a bully to kill someone unless you're in an 80's movie.

And it's not incumbent upon the victim to consider the safety of an attacker but that doesn't mean the condition of the attacker after the fact won't be held against you. That's why he was charged with manslaughter in the first place.

My entire point has been that a level of proportional response has to be maintained. If someone starts yelling at you, you can't just smack em in the face with a baseball bat and say, "He was displaying an intent to harm." The judge's reasoning that force can be met with deadly force is flawed. When does "I was defending myself" turn into "that was murder"?

Intent is irrelevant. The attack alone can kill, that is the only thing to consider. You have no moral obligation to gamble with your life. And the 'charge' is less relevant than the acquittal (which was the right call).

Comparing physical assault (an act of violence) to yelling is disingenuous. I don't know of anyone who can kill you by yelling at you who doesn't live in Skyrim.

Defending yourself turns to murder only when the attacker was provably no longer a threat. Given that the time between stab 1 and stab 11 was probably only a few seconds, I'll warrant that even his attacker didn't know he was mortally wounded until the kid rolled away.

Then logically any and all violence against someone should be met with deadly force. Why would you ever go with anything less if attacks alone can kill? And the yelling is a valid comparison. After all, if an attack can kill and intent is irrelevant, why wouldn't you operate under the assumption that any sort of action suggesting aggression would be a threat to kill? There's no moral obligation to gamble with your life (your words) so why wouldn't you act first lest the aggression turn to violence?

If you act under the presumption that any attack can kill and therefore any attacker must be presumed to have intent to kill, than there is no extreme for self-defense. I commend this kid for taking all the measures he did to ensure there wasn't conflict, but he went too far in protecting himself. "At all costs" is the creed of people who believe the ends justifies the means. And if he didn't intend too, then that is unfortunate but the blood is still on his hands.

Okay. I have to intervene. I've argued this point, successfully I might add, earlier in the thread.

The bully punched Saavedra in the back of the head and moved to continue the attack. Panicking, dazed and frightened, Saavedra pulled his knife, a THREE INCH BLADE, and started stabbing. Not aiming for specific points. He's a fifteen year old kid with a pen knife. He's not a fucking trained assassin. He stabs and he stabs and he stabs until that bully isn't standing anymore. The bully, meanwhile, started his attack with malicious intent, and as soon as that knife entered his body, his own survival instincts kick in, the adrenaline flows and he's fighting for his life, so he doesn't fall until the twelfth stab.
Maybe Saavedra didn't believe a three inch knife could kill somebody. He fought in self defence. You can walk away from a shout. This bully already proved that he's not above hitting you in the back of the head. Saavedra was in a corner and he did what he had to do to protect himself.

Panicking, dazed and frightened, Saavedra should've started swinging with his fists, instead of pulling a weapon. It was an accident to be sure, but not one that should simply be turned away from. Maybe the consequences of knowing he killed someone is enough.

Also: LOL at believing any argument on the internet is successful.

Ah, you're such a funny guy. You should have read the thread before you interrupted with your own uneducated viewpoint. Once you've been beaten up enough times, you decide to get an insurance policy. Sometimes you're forced to use it.

I never heard any evidence he brought the knife specifically to defend himself, only that he presented it to friends. Also, I'm not gonna read through 22 pages after the first page told me there were gonna be three kinds of people in this thread.

The people who thought the kid was excessive in defending himself.
The people who think it's unfortunate, but the bully shouldn't have started a fight.
And the people living out revenge fantasies because they were picked on and think all bullies deserve to die

 

[codebulder]

Good the little ***** deserved it. I love when karma works out for the ones who deserve it. I hope this kid gets a metal for this. Good on you bro.

 

[irishda]

A lot of people are quick to point out that the defendant wasn't a trained assassin but a scared kid, and they forget the flipside of that. The bully wasn't some monster who ruined lives, it was also just some kid, probably a very insecure one at that too.

Bullies can and do ruin lives, psychological damage is no joke.

Bullies operate on intimidation and trying to psychologically wear you down. But they only have as much power over your mind as you let them. Bullies in the adult world? The ones in the office who threaten you, who hold power over you? They can ruin lives, destroy careers, etc. Kids? High school? The worst a bully can do then, without committing a full on felony, is humiliate. But again, that humiliation is entirely dependent on how much the victim lets it.

 

[BrassButtons]

But I personally would say 12 stabs is excessive for any fight.

Based on what?

 

[Cueball47]

Perhaps the bully shouldn't have been stirring up trouble. Perhaps the world is better off without him.

 

[Cueball47]

Perhaps the bully shouldn't have been stirring up trouble. Perhaps the world is better off without him.

 

[AlAaraaf74]

I'm all for getting back at bullies, but this kid can't get away with murder. This story is a little rediculous.

 

[Shycte]

This just goes to show you how extreme the issue of bulling has gotten in recent years. It should be an outrage that he got let off without any kind of punishment. There are clearly other options when dealing with a bully, such as contact school administration, it is there for a reason!

How was he going to contact the school administrator when he was getting the shit kicked out of him on a public street?

Obviously murder is the answer.

Obviously ignorance of the law is your forte here. Self-defense isn't murder.

You can't stab someone 11 times in self-defence. Once, maybe twice. Not 11. No way.

A 15 year old kid died, no one can just walk away from that. And certinly not after 11 stab wounds.