1ReasonWhy We Need_to Change the Way We Fight Against Sexism

[Agayek]

You are implicitely suggesting "making a big deal" out of harassment and discrimination is a bad thing. I don't see any middle ground in this scenario.

I agree with you that people proclaiming they are awesome for being feminist/anti-racist/whatever is horrible. Being feminist/anti-racist/whatever is the bare minimum anybody should expect from any human being and nothing that merits praise. And if your most serious issue with social activism is that someone insulted you once, yeah.

My big issue with social activism is that the most vocal people are the kind that go off on twenty minute rants about equal treatment as soon as anyone even so much as suggest anything that could even peripherally be construed as against their cause, then immediately turn around and demand reparations, or superior treatment, or any of a billion other things be handed to someone because of their race/gender/creed/orientation/etc.

People should absolutely be calling out sexism or racism or any other kind of -ism. That behavior should not be tolerated, by anyone, and anyone that behaves in such a way needs to be beaten with the stick of common human decency until they get the message.

People should not be clamoring for being treated differently, in any fashion because of their gender/race/orientation/creed/etc.

Aim for stopping the shit that shouldn't happen, not having more shit that shouldn't happen that just happens to be in your favor.

 

[Lilani]

I think the idea that we have to "Target" 50% of the human race or lose their participation is stupid. Even with publishers actively attempting to target men with their games, women still play the games.

We don't have to make games that are powered by estrogen or something to get women to play games, we just have to stop trying so hard to do things like keeping women off the covers of games, or refusing to publish games because they have female protagonists.

We don't need to design our games to cater only to women, we just need stop designing them to cater only to men.

I also completely agree with this. Hardly anybody talks about a target audience when discussing PIXAR movies, because their movies are perfectly balanced. Even though until Brave all of their movies had a male as the lead protagonist, I never felt like I was missing out on something as female audience member because the world and the rest of the characters were so well realized. The guys were heroes, but they weren't heroes because they were guys.

And as for the basic themes of the films, though they are "child appropriate," they touch on themes that anybody of any age can relate to. I doubt kids understand everything that happens in the first 10 minutes of Up. Yes kids have a basic understanding of love and friendship and loss, but I doubt they were on the exact same page as adults when it showed Ellie in the doctor's office after watching them building up the nursery. And I honestly I don't it was written with any intention of "targeting" kids. They just wanted to tell a good story, and they did what they had to in order to do that. And the same can be said of all their films. I think Cars 2 is the only film they've made so far that was really meant to "target" an audience, and I personally think it's still a good film, it just doesn't try to tug at your heartstrings like all their other films do. Brave had a few problems, but I don't feel it had anything to do with the central relationship being Merida and her mother.

So, yeah. That's the long and short of it. Tell the story you need to tell with the characters that are necessary to tell it. Stop pretending you need to fill some sort of "bro quota" or "chick quota" and just tell us a good story.

 

[JudgeGame]

You are implicitely suggesting "making a big deal" out of harassment and discrimination is a bad thing. I don't see any middle ground in this scenario.

I agree with you that people proclaiming they are awesome for being feminist/anti-racist/whatever is horrible. Being feminist/anti-racist/whatever is the bare minimum anybody should expect from any human being and nothing that merits praise. And if your most serious issue with social activism is that someone insulted you once, yeah.

My big issue with social activism is that the most vocal people are the kind that go off on twenty minute rants about equal treatment as soon as anyone even so much as suggest anything that could even peripherally be construed as against their cause, then immediately turn around and demand reparations, or superior treatment, or any of a billion other things be handed to someone because of their race/gender/creed/orientation/etc.

People should absolutely be calling out sexism or racism or any other kind of -ism. That behavior should not be tolerated, by anyone, and anyone that behaves in such a way needs to be beaten with the stick of common human decency until they get the message.

People should not be clamoring for being treated differently, in any fashion because of their gender/race/orientation/creed/etc.

Aim for stopping the shit that shouldn't happen, not having more shit that shouldn't happen that just happens to be in your favor.

So you find social activists annoying?

 

[Agayek]

So you find social activists annoying?

I find anyone that decries one thing, then demands something similar, then handwaves their hypocrisy by saying "it's alright, it's for a different group" to be annoying.

Really, to avoid bothering me, all you have to do is not be a hypocrite. If you support equality, then actually support equality, not an -ism under the veil of hypocrisy.

 

[shintakie10]

Lots of fallacies there. This argument has been used in every single industry where women faced issues and has, so far, always turned out wrong. In fact, it was even said by a fake Radium Girl, a fake created to make said company look better. Google it and weep.

There is absolutely gatekeeping in the gaming industry, some of which I have faced myself, and there is also quite a lot of rather open sexism among some of the devs. That's not exactly a secret.


Of course people here don't want to hear that - you dudes are still busy agreeing with the attacks on Sarkeesian.

But this girl is in video game school. That's almost similar to having work experience in the actual video game development industry!

That would have been fine for a rambling Deviantart journal, but for Gamasutra the whole thing was just kind of weird. Most of her points are super obvious shit that most everyone already agrees about, and for all she was going on about that Twitter thing, I don't recall reading any actual examples of why it's so bad. That and the fact that she's never actually worked in game development, that tends to keep you sheltered from the things you're trying to write about. I'm sure it's a great and safe way to get people to like you, though!

You can't possibly say most people agree with it when we're STILL dealin with this friggin problem. If most people agreed with her points, it wouldn't be a problem, but it is.

 

[Something Amyss]

So, yeah. That's the long and short of it. Tell the story you need to tell with the characters that are necessary to tell it. Stop pretending you need to fill some sort of "bro quota" or "chick quota" and just tell us a good story.

Consider then, that not all industries are created equally.

Consider also that while Pixar does exist, it exists in a sea of blokcbusters with dudebros and explosions and straight white male protagonists because generally speaking women and people of colour and gays are considered unable to carry a movie. And there's been reinforcement of this point.

Consider, then, that Pixar might be an exception and not itself a rule.

Oddly enough, I always thought of Pixar movies as very boy-oriented. Although, it's a point where MovieBob and I are in agreement, so I'd be happy to reconsider. The point, however, being that you may feel otherwise, but I doubt that's particularly the intent or the reality.

I'm also just going to add that the promotion of a female lead in Brave WAS met with controversy, which sort of belies your point. Even Pixar fans seemed to get a little skittish around the concept of a girl as a lead.

So yes. Tell the story you want...As long as you don't have a girl in the lead.

 

[rbstewart7263]

I think some people are slightly twisting what she has said, not that their isn't a problem but that we shouldn't blow up about everything.

That said the issue with the dancers was more that it followed a panel discussing problems women face in the gaming industry than anything else. It was like the industry saying LOL WE DON'T CARE!

Many time I have noticed a lot of gas-lighting going on when it comes to women's issues. 'You're crazy, you're irrational, you're over emotional. It's a way of guys making women feel bad about standing up for themselves with the weight of society behind them.

Frankly I don't think this girl is being very helpful by saying well I PERSONALLY haven't had a problem. Well yeah plenty other people have...including people like Kim Swift.

I'll just leave this here

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/04/04/game-industry-gender-wage-gap-is-horrendous/

can you send me a link where kim said that? I wonder which dev she had problems with?(SURELY NOT THE MIGHTY AND JUST VALVE!!!)lol jk

Kim Swift @K2theSwift

Because I get mistaken for the receptionist or day-hire marketing at trade shows. #1reasonwhy

http://kotaku.com/5963528/heres-a-devastating-account-of-the-crap-women-in-the-games-business-have-to-deal-with-in-2012

Taken from these twitter links.

Kims experience sounds like an annoyance at best. I read a few of the others though and while I wont go so far as to say that it is some "GREAT STRUGGLE!" I can tell there are definately some bumps here and there depending on where you go in the industry.

I like this post from numberonereasontobe.

because for every shithead misogynist, there are loads of respectful, funny, & brilliant men & women to work with in game dev. #1reasontobe

Damn straight. With more positivity like this this can be a fun place to be in again.

Oh well as long as you think it's a bit of an annoyance I guess that's okay...

Maybe try thinking about how it feels to be put down all the time? I don't know why you are trying so hard to deny there is a problem. How does it negatively affect you if there is?

And it is a gendered problem if someone automatically clocks you as a secretary just because you are a woman..

And how does anyone know that its because shes a woman.

You HEAR alot about kim swift. Her name is instantly recognizable and enough so that its why I hope to go to digipen one day. But her face well she doesnt really parade that around alot. Perhaps more people would recognize her if she made herself a "face" in the industry instead of a "name".

Like if I just saw her right now I wouldnt know who she was but if I was like "sup" and she was like "im kim swift" Itd be instant cause of her name.

 

[LetalisK]

Read the article and it was alright. Read the #1reasonswhy twitter thing. Some disturbing stuff that needs to stop and is hopefully, due to increased awareness, becoming less common. Sadly, also some narcissistic crap.

 

[rbstewart7263]

Its pretty basic really. Genetically and statistically women are on average worse at all of those fields then men.

But is it genetic? When boys are frequently given toys like LEGOs and K'NEX and other such toys that promote creativity and problem-solving, while girls are more frequently given toys like baby dolls and costumes that promote domestic activities and value in physical appearance, is it possible that girls from the offset are being subtly shown that ingenuity and solving physical problems aren't what they're "supposed" to be doing? That's basically what I was trying to get at in that statement. Perhaps we aren't as a society actively telling girls "you can't be a scientist" or "you can't be an engineer," but if all we throw at them is those "girl toys" throughout all of their childhood, is it so surprising that more of them choose to favor those more domestic activities?

But again, that isn't the topic we're addressing here, which is why I was so hesitant to reply before. This will be my last reply on this issue, and I was only making it to clarify the sociological effect I was alluding to there.

Seriously a 30 second search will tell you more often than not what is known and what isnt. social scientists long agree that men and women in science and mathematics are equal. The question that irks alot of people is. "why does said gender overtake this gender in this field" This one is no concern to me though they are trying to figure it out with the studies on the norway equality paradox. I for one think its simple. While we are equal we are still "different" if only slightly. I dont care to make a whole bunch of women try to take up some field that they dont want to just so that the numbers match all nice and neat. It happens with men to.In teaching the more they try to encourage men to teach the more it is female dominated.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

You are both right and wrong here. They are not blindly following anything they are paying attention to where the majority of sales come from. From a publisher point of view women are simply not a large enough group to warrant paying special attention to unless its a PR stunt. They are happy to include any changes women want though as long as it doesn't interfere with their core target audience and doesn't cost to much money.

Its a double edged sword though because we will never get a large percentage of female gamers until games start to target them and we will never get games targeting women until they become a large percentage of gamers.

I am obviously speaking in general here because there will always be exceptions.

While it may be true (and it certainly is) that the vast majority of gamers are male... I think we've long past the era where they are a majority of white males.

I was actually playing Borderlands 2 with my friend last week, and I was just commenting that I never knew Mordecai was Latino. I only played Roland. He laughed at me and said 'Do me a favor, name another latino that isn't Dom from Gears of War"

I was freaking stumped.

Then I thought about Asians, Indians, Native Americans... the whole rainbow. I live in New York, so I have friends of all colors gaming. Genders, as well. I've been up and down the east coast of the US and parts of the West Coast (mentioned because a majority of the population lives there), and you'll always find a friend if you're a fellow gamer. or at least something to talk about. While there may be a 'reason' why game developers won't cater to women simply because there are not enough girl gamers out there... we don't have a monochromatic male gamer base here.

I'm of course not asking you to answer for game designers, but I do know a lot of the time is 'we can't please everyone'. But given the make up of the majority of game designers background and gender, it feels like they whisper to themselves 'so let's just please each other'.

 

[Chemical Alia]

Lots of fallacies there. This argument has been used in every single industry where women faced issues and has, so far, always turned out wrong. In fact, it was even said by a fake Radium Girl, a fake created to make said company look better. Google it and weep.

There is absolutely gatekeeping in the gaming industry, some of which I have faced myself, and there is also quite a lot of rather open sexism among some of the devs. That's not exactly a secret.


Of course people here don't want to hear that - you dudes are still busy agreeing with the attacks on Sarkeesian.

But this girl is in video game school. That's almost similar to having work experience in the actual video game development industry!

That would have been fine for a rambling Deviantart journal, but for Gamasutra the whole thing was just kind of weird. Most of her points are super obvious shit that most everyone already agrees about, and for all she was going on about that Twitter thing, I don't recall reading any actual examples of why it's so bad. That and the fact that she's never actually worked in game development, that tends to keep you sheltered from the things you're trying to write about. I'm sure it's a great and safe way to get people to like you, though!

You can't possibly say most people agree with it when we're STILL dealin with this friggin problem. If most people agreed with her points, it wouldn't be a problem, but it is.

Yeah, I do think that most people "want to see equality in the games industry", and that most women in the industry would rather see that solved by improving the surrounding culture rather than by throwing more token women into press conferences. People have been saying this for years, she's not exactly throwing out amazing new ideas here.

As for that OneReasonWhy stuff, she keeps mentioning how it's terrible in this way and that, but I don't recall her giving a single concrete example. I don't really do the twitter thing, but what I had seen of it seemed like venting of real issues people have and not a big deal at all. I don't see how that point can even be debated when I have no idea what she actually views as "totally harmful to her male colleagues".

Also, I'd like to reiterate again that a school environment and a work environment are not comparable, and I feel that she's speaking from a position of inexperience with the issue. Not that she can't have her opinions, but they aren't going to hold much water with me until she has worked in a real game development environment. Even studio to studio, there can be a tremendous difference in culture, so if she's really just downplaying the built up frustration that women experience over time and want to vent/raise awareness of it because she herself hasn't experienced any of it, that's not cool.

 

[Smeatza]

Now, that is misrepresentation. Those are just two quotes you put together. I believe `you lead a sheltered life` was a response to not having experienced much sexism in enjoying and working in games. It was not a direct response to that one sentence out of the article.

I disagree.
I used the word "implication," No context was provided, the quote was "It sounds like she's lived a very blessed, very sheltered life" and The rest of the post keeps the same tone.
I felt it was an apt summary for at least that single quote.

I don't think people disagreeing with you is sensationalist.

Now you're just being silly.

These people are not suggesting guys are the WURST THING EVAR, they just think the problem is bigger than you do.

Sensationally big. Maybe I'm being nitpicky. Everyone's entitled to a little dramatic flair.

They are not supporting hatred. Maybe we do not know the exact scale of the problem, but at least we can all admit there is one.

I've already said there is so I'm not sure how relevant that is to our discussion.
But you say it right there "we do not know the exact scale of the problem." So the people who do play it off like the industry and community is plagued with an inordinate amount of sexism are being sensationalist.

Probably there is some bigotry behind it. I don't particularly care. Intent is not magical. Some people are bigots, others just think `Screw it this doesn't affect me I will play devil's advocate for an hour and then go back to not giving a shit`.

Hm.
Well I don't think pandering to sensationalist media trends is a good idea when it alienates the people you wish to engage with.

 

[Little Gray]

Its pretty basic really. Genetically and statistically women are on average worse at all of those fields then men.

But is it genetic? When boys are frequently given toys like LEGOs and K'NEX and other such toys that promote creativity and problem-solving, while girls are more frequently given toys like baby dolls and costumes that promote domestic activities and value in physical appearance, is it possible that girls from the offset are being subtly shown that ingenuity and solving physical problems aren't what they're "supposed" to be doing? That's basically what I was trying to get at in that statement. Perhaps we aren't as a society actively telling girls "you can't be a scientist" or "you can't be an engineer," but if all we throw at them is those "girl toys" throughout all of their childhood, is it so surprising that more of them choose to favor those more domestic activities?

But again, that isn't the topic we're addressing here, which is why I was so hesitant to reply before. This will be my last reply on this issue, and I was only making it to clarify the sociological effect I was alluding to there.

Well when I said genetically I was only referring to things like construction and other labour intensive fields.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I think some people are slightly twisting what she has said, not that their isn't a problem but that we shouldn't blow up about everything.

That said the issue with the dancers was more that it followed a panel discussing problems women face in the gaming industry than anything else. It was like the industry saying LOL WE DON'T CARE!

Many time I have noticed a lot of gas-lighting going on when it comes to women's issues. 'You're crazy, you're irrational, you're over emotional. It's a way of guys making women feel bad about standing up for themselves with the weight of society behind them.

Frankly I don't think this girl is being very helpful by saying well I PERSONALLY haven't had a problem. Well yeah plenty other people have...including people like Kim Swift.

I'll just leave this here

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/04/04/game-industry-gender-wage-gap-is-horrendous/

can you send me a link where kim said that? I wonder which dev she had problems with?(SURELY NOT THE MIGHTY AND JUST VALVE!!!)lol jk

Kim Swift @K2theSwift

Because I get mistaken for the receptionist or day-hire marketing at trade shows. #1reasonwhy

http://kotaku.com/5963528/heres-a-devastating-account-of-the-crap-women-in-the-games-business-have-to-deal-with-in-2012

Taken from these twitter links.

Kims experience sounds like an annoyance at best. I read a few of the others though and while I wont go so far as to say that it is some "GREAT STRUGGLE!" I can tell there are definately some bumps here and there depending on where you go in the industry.

I like this post from numberonereasontobe.

because for every shithead misogynist, there are loads of respectful, funny, & brilliant men & women to work with in game dev. #1reasontobe

Damn straight. With more positivity like this this can be a fun place to be in again.

Oh well as long as you think it's a bit of an annoyance I guess that's okay...

Maybe try thinking about how it feels to be put down all the time? I don't know why you are trying so hard to deny there is a problem. How does it negatively affect you if there is?

And it is a gendered problem if someone automatically clocks you as a secretary just because you are a woman..

And how does anyone know that its because shes a woman.

You HEAR alot about kim swift. Her name is instantly recognizable and enough so that its why I hope to go to digipen one day. But her face well she doesnt really parade that around alot. Perhaps more people would recognize her if she made herself a "face" in the industry instead of a "name".

Like if I just saw her right now I wouldnt know who she was but if I was like "sup" and she was like "im kim swift" Itd be instant cause of her name.

...It's the assumption that because she's a female and she's at these things she is a secretary. That's what is sexist about it.

Again why are you trying so hard to prove that there isn't a problem? When there clearly is.

 

[rbstewart7263]

I think some people are slightly twisting what she has said, not that their isn't a problem but that we shouldn't blow up about everything.

That said the issue with the dancers was more that it followed a panel discussing problems women face in the gaming industry than anything else. It was like the industry saying LOL WE DON'T CARE!

Many time I have noticed a lot of gas-lighting going on when it comes to women's issues. 'You're crazy, you're irrational, you're over emotional. It's a way of guys making women feel bad about standing up for themselves with the weight of society behind them.

Frankly I don't think this girl is being very helpful by saying well I PERSONALLY haven't had a problem. Well yeah plenty other people have...including people like Kim Swift.

I'll just leave this here

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/04/04/game-industry-gender-wage-gap-is-horrendous/

can you send me a link where kim said that? I wonder which dev she had problems with?(SURELY NOT THE MIGHTY AND JUST VALVE!!!)lol jk

Kim Swift @K2theSwift

Because I get mistaken for the receptionist or day-hire marketing at trade shows. #1reasonwhy

http://kotaku.com/5963528/heres-a-devastating-account-of-the-crap-women-in-the-games-business-have-to-deal-with-in-2012

Taken from these twitter links.

Kims experience sounds like an annoyance at best. I read a few of the others though and while I wont go so far as to say that it is some "GREAT STRUGGLE!" I can tell there are definately some bumps here and there depending on where you go in the industry.

I like this post from numberonereasontobe.

because for every shithead misogynist, there are loads of respectful, funny, & brilliant men & women to work with in game dev. #1reasontobe

Damn straight. With more positivity like this this can be a fun place to be in again.

Oh well as long as you think it's a bit of an annoyance I guess that's okay...

Maybe try thinking about how it feels to be put down all the time? I don't know why you are trying so hard to deny there is a problem. How does it negatively affect you if there is?

And it is a gendered problem if someone automatically clocks you as a secretary just because you are a woman..

And how does anyone know that its because shes a woman.

You HEAR alot about kim swift. Her name is instantly recognizable and enough so that its why I hope to go to digipen one day. But her face well she doesnt really parade that around alot. Perhaps more people would recognize her if she made herself a "face" in the industry instead of a "name".

Like if I just saw her right now I wouldnt know who she was but if I was like "sup" and she was like "im kim swift" Itd be instant cause of her name.

...It's the assumption that because she's a female and she's at these things she is a secretary. That's what is sexist about it.

Again why are you trying so hard to prove that there isn't a problem? When there clearly is.

The question is How does she know its just cause shes a woman?! You cant just assume that there are innumerable reasons why people might make that mistake. Ive been mistaken as a guy working in gamestop when I just shop there do I go calling misandry on all the moms trying to buy lame games for there kids? no! I figure thats just the impression I gave off and move on with my life like a sensible person would do!

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Well I'd assume she knows better than us. You know, having experienced it. She seems like a smart enough woman to know when something is misogynistic.

I don't know how someone assuming you are knowledgeable about games is misandry but okay.

 

[seditary]

Can you imagine what the response would be if someone said "And this game is particularly special because it was developed only by black people"?

As an aside, I've always been incredibly amused at the Assassin's Creed games with their multicultural development etc spiel before the start of the games.

Like why the hell does that matter to me in any way? That's not noteworthy, it should be common and makes no difference to my experience with the game.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

Can you imagine what the response would be if someone said "And this game is particularly special because it was developed only by black people"?

As an aside, I've always been incredibly amused at the Assassin's Creed games with their multicultural development etc spiel before the start of the games.

Like why the hell does that matter to me in any way? That's not noteworthy, it should be common and makes no difference to my experience with the game.

Me too, but in Assassin's Creed's case I think it's less advertising their multiculturalism and more trying to pre-empt the criticism that people will say they're racist or support certain ideologies because of the games. Although, I don't know, they could just be espousing what they think is an achievement.

 

[Erttheking]

Well, I may as well throw my hat into the ring here. I think that we need to calm down and approach sexism in a calm and rational manner, but even then we need to remember that it is a real problem in the gaming industry that needs to be solved. See that video of Jim talking about how Publishers were against having female protagonists and against having women on the cover of games. Seriously, that's pretty messed up.

 

[rbstewart7263]

snip

Well I'd assume she knows better than us. You know, having experienced it. She seems like a smart enough woman to know when something is misogynistic.

I don't know how someone assuming you are knowledgeable about games is misandry but okay.

lol I would assume as much too. shes my reason for wanting to go to digipen one day.