201: See No Evil

[Emanuel Maiberg]

Nice article.

I've thought similar things in the past, so I'm aware of these concerns, but I am a little worried about how the masses of teenagers and pre-teens (and older, actually) view these types of games. I often wonder what a survey would turn up.

Excellent article, I just wonder is the media would kick up a furoar aout the holocaust being depicted in game though. Germany would ban it outright, and no doubt the mass media in america and britian would deem it as insensative and trivilising the holocaust.

My thoughts exactly.

It also makes collecting the info for the survey mentioned above extremely hard to view as factual. Who could we trust not to bend things to get a certain viewpoint?

 

[Dirty Apple]

That was an exceptionally well written, thought provoking article. When he wrote the bit about playing as a jew during the slum rebellions my first reaction was disgust and surprise. The idea of playing something based on that serious a topic instantly offended me. Then I stopped and analyzed the emotion and realized I had no problem using an imaginary flame thrower, or a gun mounted bayonet in a game, and aren't those terribly serious situations? There's an obvious disconnect here. Why can I watch the atrocities of the holocaust in movies, but can't play it in a game? Oh wait, there it is. No matter how much we try to intellectualize the medium, in its most base form, it's still supposed to be a GAME. And no one wants to play a game about real world suffering, despair, and loss. It would be disreapectful to the survivors, and wouldn't do any real justice to the horrors that were committed.

 

[Fenrir45]

"Russia's role was questionable but necessary"
Russia WON that war, you retard! Without Russia UK would have been doomed. And United States actually played no role at all in this war.

FFS ABOUT TIME SOMEONE SAYS THAT. So many faggots say that america won all by their selves all they did was liberate france...again and drop a few nukes on japan.

 

[ThisNewGuy]

"Russia's role was questionable but necessary"
Russia WON that war, you retard! Without Russia UK would have been doomed. And United States actually played no role at all in this war.

I agree that Russia pretty much won the war, but US definitely did something. We pressured Hitler and Japan to really fight at two fronts. Not only that, the US did something pretty spectacular too: took almost full credit for the war.

But I agree with the article. If these video games seriously want to represent the war and call themselves truly WW-II games, they should not forget the Holocaust because it is one of the biggest sets of events in the war (some may argue that it is the cause of the war). However, in addition to that, I feel that WW-II games are not doing Nazis justice. When we play WW2 games or hear and see about WW2, the Nazis are always demonized. I'm not saying that they are good because what they did was terrible. But I am saying that there are reasons why Germany turned to the Nazis ideal. In fact, it is the evils that the Allied forces enforced on Germany that caused the war in the first place. So, what I'm saying is, if games want to be historically accurate, they should include these major things. The Holocaust and the desolation of Germany before the war.

 

[Alex_P]

I see two obvious ways to move forward. The first is to concede to the people who believe that videogames are nothing but extravagant toys incapable of tackling the same issues that other mediums do, and limit the settings of FPS games to fantasy or science fiction, where a black and white view of the world is harmless.

"Black and white" in fantasy and science fiction isn't truly harmless, is it? Whether your understanding of the world is grounded in black-and-white bastardizations of history or black-and-white fantasy, you're still gorging on the same dysfunctional worldview.

...

Why can I watch the atrocities of the holocaust in movies, but can't play it in a game? Oh wait, there it is. No matter how much we try to intellectualize the medium, in its most base form, it's still supposed to be a GAME. And no one wants to play a game about real world suffering, despair, and loss. It would be disreapectful to the survivors, and wouldn't do any real justice to the horrors that were committed.

True, games are games, things we play for fun. What makes play fun, though? For me, a lot of the attraction is in "the magic circle" -- a shared emotional space -- and "the narrative of play" -- a fiction that the game is creating, sometimes by feel more so than explicitly. All that common stuff about competition and goals and stuff is worth talking about, too but it's not really why I play. And, like with books and movies, I find communication preferable to escapism (I highly suspect I'm in the minority here; that breaks my heart just a little bit).

A game can't do everything a film or literary work can, but, at the same time, as a game, Grey Ranks [http://www.bullypulpitgames.com/games/index.php?game=grey_ranks] drives you to share and struggle with and personalize its subject matter in ways that a book or movie can't.

-- Alex

 

[darfvader]

don't worry israel will always remember the holocaust. its like passover we have the drinks and maza bread but wee all know its about escaping from tyranny. same thing bout purim or hanuka. We make a point of remembering each time we escaped oblivion. the problem isn't remembring the problem is EXISTING. if anyone thinks that antisemitisem is over well: you are either from the states and from a rich area at that and B never been an israeli abroad. I got stuff thrown at me and later beat up in spain, chased in germany and had to walk with effing armed escort while visitng the camps in poland. thats THE WESTERN COUNTRIES,the main problem are certain oil rich countries that use the blight of a people the pissed on and were stuck with (and ill admit that israel is not effective at solving the palestinian problem) as a an excuse to again try and wipe us out.

so no in every generation we face this the holocaust won't be forgotten. LETS JUST HOPE IT WON"T BE REPEATED.

 

[Gaderael]

This is definitely one of the most interesting articles I have read on the Escapist so far. Whenever I play a good WWII game, like the COD series, I always think of my Great Grandfather while playing. He dies not long after I was born so I never had the chance to learn from him about his experiences. There are moments in the COD series that do show how awful war can be, and I never just run and gun through mindlessly. It's always in my head that these things happened, that the real life counterparts to my pixelated foes had families and lives and were told that we were less than human, just as we label them.

Good WWII games got me to research the actual war from as many points as possible. There were so many grey areas to it all. The Allies all played integral roles, be they American, Russian, British, Canadian, French, Newfoundlanders, Africans, Czechs. It's a shame when some of their roles are diminished. Then on the flip side, the Nazi party had the whole of Germany whipped up into such a state of fear, confusion, and paranoia that most of them didn't know up from down. There was the internal struggle with in Germany between the Nazis, the SS and the SA. Then to top it all off there was the Holocaust which eradicated millions of Jew, Poles, Gypsies, Homosexuals, and even Germans who were physically and mentally disabled.

I'd like to play a game where all of this was incorporated. I think it would have to be something along the lines of Mass Effect/Oblivion/The Witcher. Something where you are involved in the action as well as making a decisions to do one thing or the other, or nothing at all, and that would affect the rest of the game, be it subtly or more direct, like having a unit take a different path, resulting in the capture of a Nazi camp, to missing it utterly and finding out later that in the camp were hundreds of prisoners who wre executed because we didn't find them.

I'd also like to have a SWAT mechanic in there as well, where you can actually have the Nazi officers surrender, or being captured alive, instead of being killed.

Games do have the ability to do all of this and have an even greater ability, beyond other forms of art and entertainment to tell a story and to teach and enlighten those that play it or see it.

I want to experience a game where I come away from it all stunned, awed, or teary-eyed. Or all three. I can be done.

 

[goater24]

I understand the need to keep history alive so atrocities like those of WWII are not repeated. There is a need to make people aware of the facts and to try and take the sugar coating when educating the next generation. That said I feel that a game including such stimulus as gas chambers and concentration camps would only result in negative publicity. Could you imagine the outcry a sensationalised article from the tabloid press could provoke? And what would that do for the publisher?

I am all in favour of educating players during a gaming experience. (I must have been one of the few kids who enjoyed learning simple world facts whilst playing Where in the world is Carman Santiago? on the Master System) but I think a more practical solution would be to have unlockable historical content to be viewed in a features mode. Perhaps some sort of achievement unlocked for watching an educational back story before going into a mission?

I think there is enough education in school to stop kids being desensitised to war, the holocaust will never be forgotten and I think a game including gas chambers and mass burials would be received in very bad taste, regardless of its intentions.

EDIT: Just an opinion, and a very interesting article

 

[Fenrir45]

Man people have hated jews since egypt used them as slaves wtf did they do....

 

[Flytch]

I haven't had the chance to play it yet, but a stealth-based game called "Velvet Assassin" came out recently, despite the name it's supposed to be based on a true story of someone fighting back in their nation in a way other than blasting through endless waves of mindless Nazi soldiers. Like I said, I haven't played it yet, and haven't heard the story behind it, so I don't know how accurate it is, but I thought it might be relevant.



I played through Assassin's Creed with almost no prior knowledge about the crusades, I was vaguely aware that, at some point in medieval times, a bunch of knights went over to the middle east and started a war for some reason. The Knights Templar were slightly more important knights that got involved in a bunch of conspiracies. "Assassin" was a word for someone who stabbed someone in the back while they weren't looking, I knew the word originated from the middle eastern group that did this notoriously well, though I had heard no accounts of actual exploits of the group, and apparently they did it for religious reasons or something. Afterwards, I've learned more about the period through other sources, like my history class, and the internet articles and posts I read speculating about the sequel (before they announced it was taking place in the Renaissance and not the Crusades). But my knowledge of the period is still minimal, as is my awareness of how inaccurately it was portrayed in the game (the ending obviously hangs a question mark and how accurate the rest of it was, considering the last section is blatantly fictional).

So understanding of a game's historical accuracy and meaning also depends on the prior knowledge obtained by the player. While I have played WWII based games that do give a brief history of the events leading up to the battle, they do not cover the events outside of the actual armed conflicts just like the others you mention. The only way to guarantee that all of it was depicted would be extended historical accounts prior to playing the game, at which point you may as well sell the game packed with a DVD of a history channel show about the war and everything associated with it, since you can't confirm how much they know prior to playing it. Even then, when you've gone to such great lengths to get the whole picture into a story that people will see, there are still going to be those who are too young to understand, who will play the game anyway, possibly skipping the story in favor of multi-player gaming.

Most of it depends on the player. So while it is perfectly possible to get people to see the whole picture in one form of media, games make this difficult, and the biggest hurdle of all is the player's mindset, when someone starts up their game system looking for pure entertainment value, there's a good chance they just wont be paying attention to the history behind it.

I studied the first crusade at A level. Pope Urban II called for an army of nobles from France to support the Emperor Alexius in his war against the Seljuk Turks. What he got was first the peoples crusade which was a ragtag bunch of peasants who raped and pillaged their way across Germany before being slaughtered near Anatolia (Turkey), shortly afterwards came the First Crusade which actually took Antioch, Jerusalem and most of the holy land before losing it quite rapidly afterwards. This sparked a succession of about twenty crusades of which three were major incursions although ironically the first was the most successful. Over the duration of the Crusades thousands, perhaps millions of innocent Turks, Muslims and Jews were slaughtered by the armys during 'pomgroms'. The main reason for the conflict between the west and the middle east to this day is their resentment for what our ancestors did to them.

 

[ManiacRaccoon]

I studied the first crusade at A level. Pope Urban II called for an army of nobles from France to support the Emperor Alexius in his war against the Seljuk Turks. What he got was first the peoples crusade which was a ragtag bunch of peasants who raped and pillaged their way across Germany before being slaughtered near Anatolia (Turkey), shortly afterwards came the First Crusade which actually took Antioch, Jerusalem and most of the holy land before losing it quite rapidly afterwards. This sparked a succession of about twenty crusades of which three were major incursions although ironically the first was the most successful. Over the duration of the Crusades thousands, perhaps millions of innocent Turks, Muslims and Jews were slaughtered by the armys during 'pomgroms'. The main reason for the conflict between the west and the middle east to this day is their resentment for what our ancestors did to them.

Yeah, case in point, or whatever the expression is, I knew maybe less than an 8th of that, and don't really care about the name of the pope who started it, and your post still banks on me having prior knowledge, because I have no idea what a 'pomgrom' is.

 

[Flytch]

I studied the first crusade at A level. Pope Urban II called for an army of nobles from France to support the Emperor Alexius in his war against the Seljuk Turks. What he got was first the peoples crusade which was a ragtag bunch of peasants who raped and pillaged their way across Germany before being slaughtered near Anatolia (Turkey), shortly afterwards came the First Crusade which actually took Antioch, Jerusalem and most of the holy land before losing it quite rapidly afterwards. This sparked a succession of about twenty crusades of which three were major incursions although ironically the first was the most successful. Over the duration of the Crusades thousands, perhaps millions of innocent Turks, Muslims and Jews were slaughtered by the armys during 'pomgroms'. The main reason for the conflict between the west and the middle east to this day is their resentment for what our ancestors did to them.

Yeah, case in point, or whatever the expression is, I knew maybe less than an 8th of that, and don't really care about the name of the pope who started it, and your post still banks on me having prior knowledge, because I have no idea what a 'pomgrom' is.

A pomgrom is a term used to describe the massacres of Jews that occured frequently in the middle ages.

 

[ManiacRaccoon]

A pomgrom is a term used to describe the massacres of Jews that occured frequently in the middle ages.

Thank you. I've learned something for today. You see my point though right? How many people do you think know that when they pick up a copy of Assassin's Creed?

 

[Pyre00]

A holocaust FPS where I get to hold rocks above my head for hours on end or be shot by the guards? Sounds like fun.

Wait, I got it, DEATH CAMP TYCOON! That would kick ass.

 

[closertorickman]

I thought this was a great article. I think that games are in a difficult position because if they came out with something like acknowledging the Holocaust directly (I don't know, for example, a level when you have to liberate a camp or something) they would be in uproar. I can imagine the British tabloids saying it's disrespectful and that the lives of the Jews, Homosexuals, Disabled and Political Prisoners that were detained in the concentrations camps weren't a game, and no game should downsize an issue as big as the Holocaust. But on the flip side, I could see that it would be a different method in educating people about it. Sure, movies like Schindler's List or The Pianist can be made tenfold, but at the end of the day, I think people can feel quite detatched from movies. With games, you're getting directly involved, and it could be used as a new type of media. So yeah, the games industry is caught in a bad situation.
Also, I'd like to add that I think it's harsh to just all out call Germans in games Nazis. Yeah, sure, some were proud to have Swastikas on their helmets, and were happy to oppress the Jews, but to systemactially call ALL Germans Nazis wouldn't be fair. I've studied Nazi Germany for the past three years, and it's fair to say the amount of opposition was tremendous and that alot of the Germans were only 'Nazis' because it meant survival. At first, if you disagreed, you lost your job. Then you lost your home. Eventually, you'd lose your family and wind up in a concentration camp if you opposed the State. Kaiser Wilhelm said that Germany needed 'her place in the sun' and yeah, many Germans shared this nationaistic view, ESPECIALLY after the harsh terms of the Treay of Versailles was placed upon her, but to say that they were all Nazis and therefore racist is quite unfair in my opinion.
Of course, none of you have to agree, but that's just what I think

 

[whaleswiththumbs]

I read this and all I can say is Well said

 

[Fenrir45]

Also, I'd like to add that I think it's harsh to just all out call Germans in games Nazis. Yeah, sure, some were proud to have Swastikas on their helmets, and were happy to oppress the Jews, but to systemactially call ALL Germans Nazis wouldn't be fair. I've studied Nazi Germany for the past three years, and it's fair to say the amount of opposition was tremendous and that alot of the Germans were only 'Nazis' because it meant survival. At first, if you disagreed, you lost your job. Then you lost your home. Eventually, you'd lose your family and wind up in a concentration camp if you opposed the State. Kaiser Wilhelm said that Germany needed 'her place in the sun' and yeah, many Germans shared this nationaistic view, ESPECIALLY after the harsh terms of the Treay of Versailles was placed upon her, but to say that they were all Nazis and therefore racist is quite unfair in my opinion.
Of course, none of you have to agree, but that's just what I think

Yeah some germans tried to assasinate hitler to save their country from oppression all failed and the allies were just as bad they kept millions of germans in concentration camps for awhile afer the war not many made it back home.

 

[Flytch]

A pomgrom is a term used to describe the massacres of Jews that occured frequently in the middle ages.

Thank you. I've learned something for today. You see my point though right? How many people do you think know that when they pick up a copy of Assassin's Creed?

Very few of them, at least when people play WW2 games they know about the holocaust and other atrocities of the war.

 

[MorkFromOrk]

Now why isn't there a video game where you play as a Native American fighting those evil pale-face Europeans?

 

[die4769]

The Author makes a good point, but governments and the ESRB would never allow a game depicting the events of a haulocaust, it's not the youth enjoying the slaughter of a race, it's the government deciding what should and shouldn't be remembered or seen.