2013 And Racism in America?

[Siege_TF]

Considering there are several states that wanted to secede from the Union when Obama was elected it doesn't really surprise me that racism is alive and well at all levels in the states - I don't think it was because he's a Democrat.

 

[Robert Marrs]

It's just that that one example is a bad one

It's not. Your argument didn't pass the smell test. You can claim otherwise, but you should know better. I do know better.

Good day, sir.

Nice counter argument bro. Instead of smugly implying that he is wrong and should know better without giving any explanation as to why, maybe you should add something constructive. He has a point. Do you honestly think something like immigration reform in the US is anything but political? Democrats want more votes and the republicans don't want that to happen. A vast majority of those people don't really care if people come to this country for any reason other than the possible political implications.

 

[Something Amyss]

So, uh, did you read anything I wrote aside from what you quoted? In either post?

Yup. I even reference stuff outside of the quoted areas previously, that should have been a hint.

Apparently, it wasn't.

Nice counter argument bro. Instead of smugly implying that he is wrong and should no better without giving any explanation as to why,

I already did. He ignored it and responded to the effect of "you didn't read my whole posts, did you?" I'm done.

But...Thanks for trying, I guess..?

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

So, uh, did you read anything I wrote aside from what you quoted? In either post?

Yup. I even reference stuff outside of the quoted areas previously, that should have been a hint.

Apparently, it wasn't.

Nice counter argument bro. Instead of smugly implying that he is wrong and should no better without giving any explanation as to why,

I already did. He ignored it and responded to the effect of "you didn't read my whole posts, did you?" I'm done.

But...Thanks for trying, I guess..?

Care to point to these counterarguments? Because the closest thing I see is a string of other examples of racism, no refutation to my claim about voter disenfranchisement in particular being mainly about keeping certain politicians in power.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

It's just that that one example is a bad one

It's not. Your argument didn't pass the smell test. You can claim otherwise, but you should know better. I do know better.

Good day, sir.

Nice counter argument bro. Instead of smugly implying that he is wrong and should know better without giving any explanation as to why, maybe you should add something constructive. He has a point. Do you honestly think something like immigration reform in the US is anything but political? Democrats want more votes and the republicans don't want that to happen. A vast majority of those people don't really care if people come to this country for any reason other than the possible political implications.

Even a lot of the racist motivation is less that the politicians are racist themselves, and more that they know a lot of their constituents are, so they may as well pander. That's kind of what politicians do. I mean sure, some of them have actual beliefs that they stick to, but for most of them that's a secondary concern.

Edit: You can see it in action with the whole Syria thing. A lot of hard line, warhawk republicans are against intervention, just because the President supports it, while a lot of the hard line, peace at any cost democrats are all for it, for exactly the same reason the republicans are against it. It's always been bad, but in the last 12 years or so in particular, politics has become less about governing the nation, and more about winning the metaphorical football game.

 

[secretkeeper12]

Yeah, worse things are happening around the world, but I'm a firm believer that the worst in people comes out in times of crisis. People will kill and murder for food in a famine, and butchery happens in the midst of a civil war, but what's our excuse for all the robbery and rapes and killings? If we have people gunning down children in our schools now, what the fuck will happen when there's an actual food shortage in the US? We're the richest people in the world, but we still can't control ourselves. I shudder to think what americans will do when faced with actual adversity

It's because violent crime is a relatively rare occurrence for the majority of people. You seem to have fallen into Mean World Syndrom [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_World_Syndrome], rest assured rape, robbery, and killings are and have been falling for quite some time now. Don't be pessimistic over nonsense. You'll feel much better, I guarantee it

 

[DrOswald]

The only thing with that is, it's more politically motivated than racially motivated.

If that's true, why target black people more aggressively than other traditionally liberal groups? They're targeting college students, but predominately black ones, despite the tendency of college students in general to vote more liberal.

Okay, fine. Maybe those are anomalies.

What about shit like "stop and frisk?"

Why do black people tend to get harsher sentences than whites? Is this also political rather than racial?

Why are drug use rates between blacks and whites similar, but blacks count for like 60-70% of drug charges?

Well, if we start with the assumption that individuals running the justice system are not themselves racist, then what we may have is a case of institutional racism. But not in the way we typically thing of it. It is not that the people running the institution are racist and are putting racist actions into play, but that the history of racism is still having an effect even without

Lets say we have a police department that has been running for two centuries. No one currently there is racist. The records show that a lot of drug trafficking in the city happens in a certain location. The police know that drugs come through this area often and so they pay close attention to that area. This is not unreasonable. After all, it only makes sense to more heavily police areas known to have higher rates of crime.

But that location was originally identified back in the racist 60's when there was a disproportionate focus on black communities. And the cycle continues. Because the police are looking for crime in this area they are finding it, so the reputation for the area having high crime remains, and so the police continue looking for crime in the area. It is a situation that no one is intentionally propping up, no one is being racist. The institution itself is racist. There is an inordinate amount of information, or laws, or something that allows black people to be arrested. And with each arrest there is more information - people tell where they got the drugs, so more black people are arrested. These people are forever with a record showing they are a drug dealer so they can't get a job and turn to their old ways. And the institution remembers and more black people are arrested. Not because people are actively being racist but because the system was stacked against them 50 years ago and has self perpetuated ever since.

Throw in the fallible nature of humans and the situation gets even worse. A person may start off not being racist, but after they arrest 5 black people for every 1 white person for ten years strait they might start being racist. It is hard to ignore that 8 of the ten dealers you caught this year were black. And so they might start subconscious, unintentional racial profiling. And so black people are more likely to get arrested. And the cycle continues.

And it gets even worse when we throw intentional racists into the mix.

I am not saying this is the case, but it is a possible explanation and a possible contributing factor and it is certainly something to look out for. Even if we ourselves are not racist there are likely still scars of racism in our culture and institutions. This can lead to a resurgence of racism if we are not careful.

 

[Shock and Awe]

Considering that some American high schools still have racially segregated proms, I'd say that this is possibly true and definitely plausible.

There's always gonna be issues if you only look at headlines. I know the story you are referring to, and it wasn't a segregated prom. The district had no official prom, and the result was two private proms that were traditionally white or black. There was no official power barring anyone from attending either. Does that excuse the situation? No, but you are implying a 50s-esqe "no coloreds allowed" situation.

 

[DarthSka]

Seeing what it's like in Alabama makes me happy I live in good ol' tolerant Mississippi............wait.

Sadly, though there's been progress, there tends to be more of this kind of thing out in the open in this region of the country. It's a lot better when one observes the attitudes of the younger generation, but some of the older ones seem too set in their ways. Though I will say my high school didn't have segregated proms while I was there, so points for my area of the South I suppose.

 

[Boogie Knight]

When Blade Trinity came out, a number of my online acquaintances were underwhelmed by the movie. One point of particular disappointment: Blade Trinity had Wesley Snipes' weakest performance in the series of films. This prompted one acquaintance to cry "racism" because Wesley Snipes was black, and he was black, and we were not. While I didn't agree with him on serious issues, he was normally a reasonable guy, but for some reason a valid criticism was proof of bigotry.

Point is "racism" is never going away because it's too convenient. The original post is a case of people being despicable, but institutional racism is nothing like it was. You'll always find cases of it, but that's because people suck and the culture is such that exposing it to the light of day is one of the best remedies. However, there are going to be people who need an excuse, or need to pretend that progress never happened. Could you imagine Jesse Jackson having to get a real job?

 

[VanTesla]

I am sad to say this does not shock me one bit... On the brighter side we are nowhere the worse country in the world when it comes to racism if we go by percentage of people and more so if we go state by state. There are some locations and states that hold more racism for one reason or another and it truly saddens me. The north has just as much racism as the south if you look hard enough. Michigan for example has many white racist and neo nazis in the up northern area. Detroit has a huge racist problem with all the other crap it has and I have been called shit and threaten because I am not a darker skin tone. Also since I have been to other countries I hve seen the same shit nomatter I go. Canada has issues going back since it was formed with the Native tribes and then the whole crap with the French Canadian and all the rest of Canada infighting.

If racism ever ended it would be the day when everyone looked the same and even then we would find other means to hate each other...

 

[VanTesla]

When Blade Trinity came out, a number of my online acquaintances were underwhelmed by the movie. One point of particular disappointment: Blade Trinity had Wesley Snipes' weakest performance in the series of films. This prompted one acquaintance to cry "racism" because Wesley Snipes was black, and he was black, and we were not. While I didn't agree with him on serious issues, he was normally a reasonable guy, but for some reason a valid criticism was proof of bigotry.

Point is "racism" is never going away because it's too convenient. The original post is a case of people being despicable, but institutional racism is nothing like it was. You'll always find cases of it, but that's because people suck and the culture is such that exposing it to the light of day is one of the best remedies. However, there are going to be people who need an excuse, or need to pretend that progress never happened. Could you imagine Jesse Jackson having to get a real job?

haha you are so right if racism was gone that guy would be broke and just a raving ahole... Well just broke he is already a raving ahole.

 

[Wraith]

-snip-

Everything you mentioned here was talked about in my post that you admitted to not reading. You do not have to read it, but I believe that if you did, it would have rebutted some of your arguments and answered as to why the solution you propose in response wouldn't do much. I am, however, sorry that you felt misunderstood.

That's circular logic, in addition to assuming taking as long as "centuries" is necessary for a word to change meaning. I'd put forth the idea that it takes much less time, closer to decades to a century with such examples as "queer", "boner", and even "gay", all words that took less than a century from having one specific meaning, being stretched to include another, then the former meaning becoming more or less irrelevant.

I understand, your second point, though I'm not exactly seeing how it's circular logic. I know what circular logic is, but I can't tell how what I wrote displays that. Could you point it out to me so that I may revise this?

 

[LetalisK]

I understand, your second point, though I'm not exactly seeing how it's circular logic. I know what circular logic is, but I can't tell how what I wrote displays that. Could you point it out to me so that I may revise this?

"It can't be used widely, because people never started using it widely." How are people supposed to start using it widely if it can't be used widely? It begs the question. In addition, your previous statements reinforces the idea that it has to change for the word to be used widely, but that it can't change.

"That is because over the centuries since its inception it has always been exclusive and continues to remain so." Inevitably? Because if not, then that supports the idea that it can evolve.

"Again, no one uses that slur for any race other than black." Again, inevitably? I understand that it currently is used probably almost exclusively for that purpose, but if you can't say it is inevitable than you're not saying anything to contradict its ability to change.

"If the word began to change its meaning centuries ago, it may very well have become something that could be used for any race. But it didn't change." Can't that "centuries ago" start now? And just because something didn't change in the past means it can't change now?

"It is continually used to target the people it was created to degrade." Same as the first two.

I feel it prudent to reiterate that I'm not arguing about the substance of your post, of which we basically agree on, but rather the form of the argument itself.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Of course it's going to be dominated by white people. Whites are a huge majority in the U.S. so that's normal. Just like you'd expect Japan to be run by Asians.

True, I meant dominated beyond their proportion. Whites are only, what, 60 something per cent of the population?

But let me ask you this, if you're walking down the sidewalk late at night would you be more nervous to walk past a group of white guys(or really ANY other ethnicity) or black guys?

Erm...you're using this as an argument for racism not existing?

 

[BoogieManFL]

Of course it's going to be dominated by white people. Whites are a huge majority in the U.S. so that's normal. Just like you'd expect Japan to be run by Asians.

True, I meant dominated beyond their proportion. Whites are only, what, 60 something per cent of the population?

But let me ask you this, if you're walking down the sidewalk late at night would you be more nervous to walk past a group of white guys(or really ANY other ethnicity) or black guys?

Erm...you're using this as an argument for racism not existing?

Either you didn't read my whole post or you didn't understand it. I said and I directly quote and nullify your comment entirely - "mostly gone". Such as "I'm not gonna hire x person because they are x race" type of things. Real racism. Of course it will likely not be 100% gone for a very long time, there will probably be a small number of people who still hold on to their idiotic bigoted ways, but speaking from a larger culturally wide prospective I believe true racism is mostly gone in the US.

Some racial stereotypes I wouldn't label as true racism but more of a cultural bias based upon traits perceived as common.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Some racial stereotypes I wouldn't label as true racism but more of a cultural bias based upon traits perceived as common.

Um...how is that any different? Isn't being biased against certain races because you perceive them to be more likely to possess certain negative traits exactly what racism is?

Oh and yes, should have said "mostly gone" rather than "not existing".

 

[BoogieManFL]

Some racial stereotypes I wouldn't label as true racism but more of a cultural bias based upon traits perceived as common.

Um...how is that any different? Isn't being biased against certain races because you perceive them to be more likely to possess certain negative traits exactly what racism is?

Oh and yes, should have said "mostly gone" rather than "not existing".

But most people who aren't racist won't see such stereotypes as enough reason to treat them any differently without due cause. Consider this scenario: Someone who believes in the stereotype that Asian people are often bad drivers isn't likely to then avoid associating with or them hating them out of spite, or wish that they didn't exist.

Is it a little racist to think things like that? Yeah, it probably is. But it's not the same thing as wearing white sheets and calling yourself a wizard while talking about race wars and how all "them coloreds" are ruining your country.

 

[Wraith]

--snip--

Wow. Now it seems so obvious now. Thank you for explaining that. I'll go back and look through everything to make sure I cut out any other problematic wording. Thank you.