226: The Agony of Defeat

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Rob Zacny

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Jun 23, 2008
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The Agony of Defeat

Typically, videogames about war are only interested in portraying the winners' perspective. But one World War II simulation discards the standard hero narrative in favor of a much deeper, darker and more nuanced approach. Rob Zacny explains why Silent Hunter III is a model of how to tell the losing side of a war story.

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dandahammer

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Jun 2, 2009
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Silent hunter 3 sounds very promising. Any hope of a console release?
I remember playing a sub game I believe on the genesis, although it may have been my dads old PC back in the day that was similar. It would have been the PC it Silent Hunter 1 came out around the time of Red Baron, Commander Keen, and Pour le Merit...
 

ToenailCar

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May 7, 2008
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Interestingly enough it seems that for many people the times when you're losing are the most memorable and enjoyable too.

Everyone I know who's played COD2 (I know, not exactly a conclusive proof) remembers the German wave attack at the start precisely because it really felt like you were being overwhelmed and defeated (At first anyway) for once, which in my opinion is far more immersive and exciting than empowerment and success ever could be.
 

ColeusRattus

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Apr 16, 2009
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Rob, you should definately check out red orchestra (http://www.redorchestragame.com). It's MP only, but still IMHO the best portrayal of the Eastern Front, doing exactly what you want: it makes you lose as well as win.

And danda, you most likely mean Silent Service II ;)
 

HobbesMkii

Hold Me Closer Tony Danza
Jun 7, 2008
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You're definitely right. The best wargames are those where losing is of major importance. Silent Hunter III kicks serious butt on that front. It's awesome to attack a convoy. It's about 1000x more awesome to have something go wrong, and spend the next hour in a very tense cat and mouse game with a destroyer escort and then slowly rise to periscope depth and give him a fish in the side from 300m.

There are lots of others I can think of. Close Combat V has no storyline, just campaigns, but losing can result in an entire battalion being taken out of the game, and even not winning (but not losing) can grind your advances to a halt.

dandahammer said:
Silent hunter 3 sounds very promising. Any hope of a console release?
Nah, they've already moved onto Silent Hunter IV (which is prettier, but not as fun). And Silent Hunter V is due out in 2010.
 

Zagzag

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Sep 11, 2009
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The problem with trying to portray defeat in a video game is that when playing a game you expect to have an objective to complete, and you win the level. I can't hink of any games (except "World Domination games" where your overall objective in the game is to control all the areas on a map, with each area being one level.) where you can fail at this objective and still progress further in the game, unless the game actually wanted you to fail. If this is the case then the defeat was not, presumably, your fault, so you can still feel feel satisfied that you did what you were supposed to. I would really like to play a game where defeat feels credible and you aren't just forced to do it again. This is stil the case even if you are playing a map based campaign, as you will presumably just fight exactly the same battle again in order to capture the same area. And in these games defeat is often meaningless as there is nothing to link missions tgether properly as they are non linear.
 

n00bie51

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May 27, 2007
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Wow, this made Silent Hunter III look freaking awesome, I really want to play it now.

Really good stuff. I wonder if Company of Heroes: Opposing Fronts plays in a similar manner?
 

Obrien Xp

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Sep 27, 2009
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I've been playing silent hunter 3 for about a year now. No it won't come out on anything other than PC (if you play it you'll understand) sh4 is out but your the americans in the pacific not the germans in the atlantic. SH5 is coming out next year but it seems quite demanding unless you have a great rig.

dandahammer said:
Silent hunter 3 sounds very promising. Any hope of a console release?
I remember playing a sub game I believe on the genesis, although it may have been my dads old PC back in the day that was similar. It would have been the PC it Silent Hunter 1 came out around the time of Red Baron, Commander Keen, and Pour le Merit...
You have to buy sh3 off of the ubisoft website because they no longer make it (its from 2005). And if you want it to be more realistic (ie. destroyers aren't godlike until they actually were, and damage and whatnot are proportional) then you'd need to find the seawolves expansion.

Trust me that game is tough as nails, I never played higher than 0% difficulty.

I've also experienced great realistics in that game, when i go through the channel, the luftwaffe and raf may be fighting overhead, or if i radio in a contact, I may have some stukas arrive to help me down some merchants. best patrol 3 tankers, 2 destroyers, 1 pt boat (downed with aa gun), 2 C3 cargo, 1 C2 cargo, and many small and coastal merchants.

When I had a good career going, I decided to be rash and charged into the channel hoping to catch some merchants near Portsmouth, a VW destroyer came into view, and I submerged, waited, fired a volley of torpedoes. They all missed and it rammed me right along the bow. I tried to salvage my boat and men but it returned on another pass and depth charged my stern torpedo room enough to flood it, I sunk to the bottom of the channel and tried to pump out the water, I stooped the flooding but the destroyer made a final pass and depth charged all along my boat, killing all my crew. To me it was slow and agonizing. I stood up after that, threw a salute and shouted "Fur Deustchland!" Funny thing is, my conning tower emblem was the laughing swordfigh (lauchen sawfish) the same that was on the U-96 (I was U-43) in Das Boot, funny how we suffered a similar fate, though in the movie they lasted a bit longer.
 

Andy_Panthro

Man of Science
May 3, 2009
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I recall the thrill of submarine warfare from 688 attack sub [http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/688-attack-sub], which I found quite tough but fair.

There are many times I have played games such as the command & conquer series, and wished that you had more options in terms of conceding territory, or transferring units from one place to another in order to turn the tide of a battle.

I realise this may annoy other people, who would prefer to sweep to victory. However, there is something about losing that makes you consider what you would do the next time, and learn from your mistakes. Indeed, if you had lost a territory, how great a feeling would you then get to retake it later, forcing your enemies to retreat as they once did to you.

Another game I have fond memories of was B-17 Flying Fortress [http://www.mobygames.com/game/b-17-flying-fortress] which allowed you to take up all the positions on the plane, from various gunner positions, pilot and of course the bomb release. I would love to see another game in a similar vein, allowing you to build a career as a specialist in some position.
 

The Random One

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May 29, 2008
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You know, I realized that some time ago. The problem is that, when a videogame shows a story, it's always simple, naive and black-and-white, unless it's a GTA-style game in which you are the bad guy, in which case it's simple, naive and black-and-grey. And that's the only way to do it, because in videogames stories must take second seat to gameplay and experience, and gameplay and experience are better if the story is a simple 'here are the bad guys, beat them' one. (A game in which you end up utterly and unquestionably losing would end up leaving a bad taste in gamers' mouths... it might become a cult classic, but no one can afford going for cult classic nowadays. Of course, you can do like CoD4 and cheat by having two main guys and having one of them get fucked.)

It just shows more strongly for me that the real 'stories' that videogames should tell are the ones players make themselves. The SHIII experience you describe strikes me as very similar to a roguelike - you're always afraid something will come up and murder you when you're distracted, and when you die, you're dead for good. And of course, there's Dwarf Fortress, in which even if a farming mishap ends up with an entire fortress lost to starvation, that fortress still existed in the world, and you can visit it with a solo adventurer, send a dwarfing squad to reclaim it, find up those artifacts end up on the hands of goblins, etc... My point is that the stories video games should be trying to tell are those that gamers create themselves, be it your submarine finally being sunk but taking two destroyers with it or a beautiful seaside fortress being torn to pieces by a dragon. Much better than "oh no, Helpful Tutorial Character B and Evil Flashback Character C are the same person! Holy fuck!"
 

ntnimara

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Oct 3, 2008
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Hearts of Iron..

I know it's somewhat less personal than the Silent Hunter games (I've played the 4th one, and I think it's an awesome experience)

Hearts of Iron is that game which turns into a story which means something to you. Especially since.. in a sense.. simulation games are "sandbox" games.. restricted to their specific area.. in Silent Hunter, you could go round anywhere and do whatever you wanted.. likewise in HoI..

the only story being the one in the history books.. and you doing your best to try and wiggle your way round and to come out on top..

My games as Romania, Greece, and Italy in HoI were very rewarding.. in the sense that I felt I was placed against tough odds.. I decided upon a strategy.. and I implemented it more or less successfully
 

Popdart

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Oct 21, 2009
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It is a real shame that there are not many games that are made that depict you as the loser. I for one would love to play a WWII game where it focussed on the German invasion of France in 1940 because you'd start off all cocky and confident and then everything would just go to hell. Making games such as that would revitalise the WWII genre and generate a new experience for anyone who is interested. Plus just once I'd like to be the loser in a WWII FPS/RTS.
 

Orange_Clockwork

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Oct 29, 2009
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Well, I've had that same feeling from other games, such as Brothers In Arms, as you've mentioned. There is the tolls of war in Hell's Highway with Baker losing more of his friends and some of his sanity, even to go as far back as Road to Hill 30, the predecessor of Hell's Highway, you'll see the loss and the emotion.

Though, it isn't to say that there is the ever present facts that the war was won which kills the experience a bit...
 

NeoShinGundam

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May 2, 2009
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Good article Zacny. In essence, most games set in war-time are re-enacting Star Wars with period weapons. You're the hero. You're going to win the battle/war and get a medal in front of a huge crowd of admirers. This sugar-coating can blur the line between 'escapist entertainment' and outright 'historical rewrite' if people aren't careful.

In the end, responsibility falls neither solely on the developers or the players of these games. Game developers should recognize that making the sacrifice and horrors of war apparent in their games will add to their emotional impact, not take away from it. Gamers should also mentally check themselves that all war games are fictionalized versions of events, and all of them must be taken with some degree of salt.
 

TwistedEllipses

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Nov 18, 2008
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It's funny that you mention COD's Soviet campaign seeming almost like propaganda. From a historical point it does have some origins in Soviet propaganda - way down the grapevine of course...

The Soviet campaign is largely based on the book (and subsequent later film)Enemy at the gates and inherits some of its errors (e.g. there's no evidence that there were ever any female snipers at Stalingrad). The book in turn is based on the sniper Zaitsev, whose exploits were greatly exaggerated for propaganda purposes...

While there's not really any defeats in COD, there is quite a big death count. It's hard to feel any attachment to faceless minor NPC being machine gunned though...and you still reach your objectives. Mind you, who would play a game where the end result is to be captured or die?
 

Flitcraft

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Jan 9, 2009
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@Obrien Xp - I once tried to use the Channel as a shortcut on my way out to patrol. It's insane there. What was really stupid on my part was that I got in two fights with the Royal Navy during my passage, won both encounters, and decided to try and press through. It didn't occur to me that they now had my course pretty well identified, so I was completely stunned when I got ambushed by three destroyers before dawn. An armed trawler took a shot at me, I started shooting back, and then the Channel lit up with searchlights from the three destroyers. That was a pretty bad moment.

@Orange_Clockwork - I really like the Brothers in Arms series, and I think the first two games are wonderful. But as I wrote here, I think Hell's Highway is pulling punches. When I am playing, I'm having fun kicking German ass in an action-packed shooter. It even has a cover system so that I can mow them down without worrying about return fire. But then in the cutscenes, you get the "horrors of war". I don't think the game ever reconciles the all-out action of the gameplay with the somber tone of the cutscenes. Plus, the cutscenes also lean pretty hard on cheap narrative tricks, like the recurring chats with Leggett.

Some other great games mentioned here: Close Combat really makes you start to identify with your troopers, and that starts to take a toll when campaigns get tough and you start losing veterans. Red Orchestra is another good one, a game that's more soldier-sim than shooter. Dwarf Fortress didn't occur to me while I was writing this, but that's another game that lets players find the stories within the game rather than telling them one. It's unbelievable what can happen in that game, and why.

-Rob
 

ilion

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Aug 20, 2009
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operation flashpoint was also good. those anti war quotes when you died really made you think about the necessity\absurdity of war. close combat was also incredible, i remember being completely hooked on the demo level of the battle of the bulge. gonna buy this one iam sure, trying the demo..