297: Green Barrels Don't Explode

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Scorched_Cascade

Innocence proves nothing
Sep 26, 2008
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Tim Latshaw said:
Scorched_Cascade said:
I thought red barrels were red because in the natural world red equals danger? If memory serves biology tests have proven that our eyes pick up red, particularly moving red, much faster than other colours.

In the natural world red means either Danger! or Poisonous. Fire extinguishers are coloured red so you spot them when you are otherwise panicking.
You're very much correct, at least human-wise. We likely notice red so quickly and associate it with danger in so many things we have made because it is the color of blood. Is it as perceptible a color for poison in the natural world, however? I'm not so sure. A lot of food is red, and many toxic animals use a variety of bright colors, including yellows and blues, to designate they are toxic. Some poison arrow frogs and the black widow do have a tell-tale red to them, though.
I was thinking more along the lines of bright red berries (nightshade berries etc) and small critters that have red colouring as a "don't eat me I'm poisonous". I thought that poisonous as opposed to venomous or toxic things were generally bright colours and most commonly red. I was taught it at school but that was a long while ago and I can't think of further examples so maybe I got that a bit muddled.

I did find a quote from an human eye specialist stating that "Red is the one color, outside of the ordinary white or yellow light, that is seen at a great distance...There is no other unmistakable color that can be seen at so great a distance."

They were arguing however that red is insufficient as a warning colour and the fact it was unmistakable was the one thing it had going in it's favour. This, I think, ties into my belief that things are red so you don't miss them.

I liked the box containing tacks study by the way I gave the same scenario to a few of my friends who aren't gamers and who are more practically minded and they got the answer almost straight away. It just goes to show how conditioned we gamers are; worrying really.

Edit-Please excuse the gramatical/spelling errors, they seem to be sneaking in all over the place due to tiredness.
 

Lancer873

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Oct 10, 2009
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Two words: [a href=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheCoconutEffect]Coconut effect.[/a]
 

Dastardly

Imaginary Friend
Apr 19, 2010
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Tim Latshaw said:
That's an excellent little checklist of dangers that can be faced when trying to design around tropes. I really wanted to get the point across that it's not as simple as "Screw trends and be awesome." A myriad of effects and ripples must be considered.
Classic butterfly effect, man (which at this point is a cliché, not a trope).
 

Smokescreen

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Dec 6, 2007
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It's tricky to design anything right. People have expectations of how things are supposed to work (On button is on, volume knobs turn from left to right, hot water is on the left side, cold on the right, etc, etc.) So often designers forget what people 'know' in order to get something cool-something that the designers feel is instantly understandable because, hey, they get it right?

Look at the Gawkwer web redesigns; roundly and soundly hated. There are two reasons for that: 1) they released the sites without full functionality (commenting) and 2) the design was a clusterfuck. Nobody likes frames-and any proper web designer from 1998 could have told you that-and NOBODY in the US reads from right to left. NOBODY.

But they wanted to do something cool, and insisted (despite evidence to the contrary, from what I've read) that everyone would do what they told them to.

And the user base said; eat shit, we're going somewhere else.

So it is with games; We've been conditioned to understand that red things are harmful or warnings. That's damn near worldwide, not just games. We've been conditioned to understand you press the jump button 2x to double jump, not the jump and an alternate button, etc etc and we need those things because they help us understand and master the world that we enter (in a gaming sense.)

I'd also recommend the book the Design of Everyday Things, if you dig on this stuff.
 

Formica Archonis

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Nov 13, 2009
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vxicepickxv said:
Compressed O2 is a dangerous thing.
And yet, the amazing "Things I Learn From My Patients" [http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=257985] thread has multiple people who smoke while on O2.

Tim Latshaw said:
Formica Archonis said:
Time to crate! THIS is why Old Man Murray is notable! (Damn Wikipedia admins.)
Ha! I was wondering if someone would mention Old Man Murray. The full quote, as you may know, says, "We figured this was the Old Man Murray equivalent of throwing yourself to the mercy of the court." but I cut that part out for fear many people wouldn't know the reference.
I'd have caught it, but I'm a thirtysomething geezer :) who remembers when OMM were stymied by the original Doom's 0 second Time to Crate. (Er, Start to Crate, now that I look it up.) Was fresh in my mind as well since I've been reading the recent Slashdot threads on OMM and Wikipedia.
 

Stone Cold Monkey

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Mar 5, 2008
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I never thought of this phenomenon, but it may explain my problem with players when I GM pen and paper RPGs. I run games other than D&D (currently Savage Worlds), and focus strongly on the role-playing part and less on task resolution, combat, or character sheet management. I have found that newer players to RPGs would interact better with my games than players that had been gaming for a long time. I think it may be do to the fact they don't have the same built-in expectations from how they game should work compared to the experienced players. I have been impressed by new players who think how their character would solve the challenge if front of them. Where as experienced players look to their character sheet, rules, mechanics, or even rules lawyer-ing the challenge.
 

CrystalShadow

don't upset the insane catgirl
Apr 11, 2009
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Phishfood said:
Well, swapping red explosive barrels for green ones seems a bad way to attack convention. Might as well have a driving game where red lights mean go and green means stop. Thats not so much making a statement as being confusing.

Why are medkits white with red crosses or vice versa in most computer games? because they are in real life. Well, the one near me is green with a white cross just to defy me....wheres my paint?

Some conventions should be challenged. e.g. having a health bar that goes between 0-100. Changing that worked great for Halo. Having a game designed for multiplayer coop worked great for L4D. But changing things that are pretty standard in not just computer games but the world is silly.
Heh. That's because the Red Cross has a very specific meaning. (And the way it's used in computer games has annoyed the 'red cross' organisation quite a bit, actually.)

The official meaning of a red cross is a medical service, and basically is mainly intended to be something that you don't shoot at if you're on a battlefield.

Your 'medkit' (or rather, first aid kit), uses the correct symbol for such, which is a white cross on a green background.
...Which is really what games should be using as well, but using the 'red cross' instead has become really ingrained somehow.
 

Phishfood

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Jul 21, 2009
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megs1120 said:
I wonder if anyone else shot the green or blue barrels in Borderlands. If Gearbox put in any sort of telemetry, it'd be interesting to see a comparison of exploded barrels by color.
Must admit, at first I just shot the reds then I accidentally shot another colour...from then on I just shot them all.


CrystalShadow said:
Heh. That's because the Red Cross has a very specific meaning. (And the way it's used in computer games has annoyed the 'red cross' organisation quite a bit, actually.)

The official meaning of a red cross is a medical service, and basically is mainly intended to be something that you don't shoot at if you're on a battlefield.

Your 'medkit' (or rather, first aid kit), uses the correct symbol for such, which is a white cross on a green background.
...Which is really what games should be using as well, but using the 'red cross' instead has become really ingrained somehow.
Huh, learned something new. Wouldn't want to shoot first aid kits on the battlefield though either. :p Thinking about it harder, I did (sort of) know that. symbol for a pharmacy is a green cross too. Makes sense - as others have said, Red (or mauve, mauve is much more dangerous) = danger, green = safe.

Still, incorrect use aside - we use red for health and blue for mana and green for acid. Its just not something that needs changing. If my health was purple and my mana was yellow it would change nothing except make a game slightly more confusing and harder to learn.

captcha: kovacs onsoup Waiter! Waiter! There's a a Kovacs in my soup. Well don't shout about it, everyone will want one.
 

ClaytronJames

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Mar 16, 2011
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Ever shoot a barrel in real life? Usually don't get the same satisfying results, just people yelling at you because you've shot their barrel...
 

Formica Archonis

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Nov 13, 2009
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ClaytronJames said:
Ever shoot a barrel in real life? Usually don't get the same satisfying results, just people yelling at you because you've shot their barrel...
No wonder. Those things can be expensive.
 

ender003

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Oct 21, 2008
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This made me think of one of my favorite series of games. Lost Planet. I've heard a lot of people complain about the strange or unintuitive controls and I never understood why they would feel that way. It's probably because they're used to third person shooters controlling a certain way and I'm not because I've had no prior experience with them. So as I was learning the controls I had no preconceived notions on how they should have been. They were what they were and I was fine with it. More than fine, actually. I've mastered them and very few people are better than me at them. This, foolishly, lead me to think I would be equally as awesome at other third person shooters. Some time spent with Gears of War tore down that idea pretty quickly.
 

Zom-B

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Feb 8, 2011
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"We tried not doing red barrels, but The Customer is always right."

No, no, no! This is the worst and most tired cliche of all! The customer is often wrong, stubborn, stupid or some combination of the three, and none of those make them right! When creators, and in this case specifically game creators, stop believing this trope, we won't always have to have "red barrels for explosions" and "green crates for health". Hell, when you think about it, green for health doesn't even make a ton of sense, since we've all been conditioned to the red cross of the health symbol, red first aid kits and other red iconography related to medicine. For Pete's sake, the organization dedicated to health and medicine is called The Red Cross! Where did green come from, anyway? An arbitrary decision at some point that other creators started parroting and look where it's gotten us. (I do realize the relation between a green cross on white first aid kit, but most first aid kits I've ever dealt with are red, with white markings, further ingraining the "health is red" conditioning)

It shows a surprising lack of originality and creativity that the developers of Bulletstorm couldn't figure out a way to give players an exploding barrel that wasn't red. What about a barrel with the large "explosive" symbol we find on aerosol cans? Not only is that a common symbol that everyone recognizes, they also would know immediately what it would mean in an in-game context.

Giving in to consumer pressure is sometimes good, but it's often bad. It's why we end up with games like DA2. Bioware and EA wanted a more accessible, "streamlined" product to appeal to more gamers. Well, look at the shit storm that's created for them. If creators stopped bowing to gamers and just did what was "right" for their game, or heavens forbid!, do what they want to do we'd start deconstructing and eliminating some of the hoary old tropes that plague so many games.

I understand that the bottom line and the future of your company is a powerful motivator, but without innovators and people willing to take a chance, we wouldn't have games, successful, critically lauded games, like Demon's Souls, Heavy Rain or Valkyria Chronicles. (just off the top of my head).

Sure, in a fast paced, frenetic gameplay environment clear signals and information is important, but I think sometimes, and this is especially true of modern games, there's too much hand holding going on and developers have made games too easy. Save points and check points are nice, but when there's no real penalty to dying, there's no real sense of accomplishment either. Going back to Demon's Souls, when I finally kill a boss demon and get to that new archstone, I'm stoked, because some of the levels are really hard and it takes a lot of skill and patience to get through. Other games with instant respawn without penalty can be just as fun, but I find the actual challenge is diluted by the lack of penalty for dying.

Personally, I'd like to see more Demon's Soul's and less games with a Fallout style progression where, if you're so inclined, you can save every five minutes in order to avoid having to repeat sections or lose too much progress. (Note, I'm not bashing Fallout, just using it as an example of a very easy to abuse save system)
 

Formica Archonis

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Nov 13, 2009
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Jarrid said:
therandombear said:
Green barrels used to explode...Doom and Crash Bandicoot had that.
Actually, DOOM's barrels were grey-ish with green liquid inside... and exploded red.
So, if anything, the lesson is barrel equals explode, not red equals explode. It sounds to me like complaining for complaining's sake to quibble over the colour...
Doom also had black flaming barrels [http://www.doomworld.com/10years/stc/pics/stc_strain.png] you couldn't shoot.
 

TheRocketeer

Intolerable Bore
Dec 24, 2009
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Green barrels can explode, but only into acid or poison that lingers and deals damage over time. Don't game designers know anything?

I just paint all my barrels black. Black barrels don't do anything, so I can keep them all in the same shed and not worry.
 

MGlBlaze

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Oct 28, 2009
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vxicepickxv said:
They use the red because it's easier for the human to detect brightly colored objects faster than darker colored ones, as they generally stand out more. I associate green with explosives, but that's because it's something I've seen before. Well, not so much seen, but I've been trained about it. Compressed O2 is a dangerous thing.
Hell, compressed any gas is a dangerous thing.

But you are correct. However, while we do detect bright colours more easily, our eyes are also more sensitive to specific wavelengths. Incidentally, green is the one we are least sensitive to, hence why if you're highlighting anything of importance in text it should absolutely not be in green. Red is the most noticeable colour to us, with blue being in the middle.

Actually I wonder if blue explosive barrels would work...

Zom-B said:
Hell, when you think about it, green for health doesn't even make a ton of sense, since we've all been conditioned to the red cross of the health symbol, red first aid kits and other red iconography related to medicine. For Pete's sake, the organization dedicated to health and medicine is called The Red Cross! Where did green come from, anyway? An arbitrary decision at some point that other creators started parroting and look where it's gotten us. (I do realize the relation between a green cross on white first aid kit, but most first aid kits I've ever dealt with are red, with white markings, further ingraining the "health is red" conditioning)
Actually the Red Cross is a trademarked symbol and I think games that have tried to use a red cross have gotten into some legal issues [http://www.redcross.ca/article.asp?id=016637&tid=001] with The Red Cross over it. It's not just an arbitrary decision.

Although here a green cross is used for pharmacists (drug stores, to the Americans here) so it sort of makes sense to me.
 

Baresark

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Dec 19, 2010
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The stupidity of the whole thing is to have some barrels that explode and others that do not. Why have some versions of the same item that you can interact with, and some that you cannot? Crates are typically used for storage of items. This convention makes sense. But, some you can break, and others you cannot? Why again?

It would be nice if the developers could come up with something more diverse, but if they can't, who really cares. I don't judge the games I play based on the number of exploding barrels or item crates in it. There have been plenty of games that don't even have this element in them that were quite excellent from a play perspective.

How about not blocking our way in a game at all? How about intelligent level design without the need to have invisible walls, or non destructible versions of game items to do it. The color of barrels and what explodes is so completely inconsequential it's kinda laughable.

Why was this a worthwhile topic?
 

ShadowsofHope

Outsider
Nov 1, 2009
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If it isn't red, I'm not shooting at it. If it's red, I'm going to damned want some fireworks from that short burst of virtual bullets hitting that virtual barrel, damn it!

That is just how it is.
 

Joshimodo

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Sep 13, 2008
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therandombear said:
Green barrels used to explode...Doom and Crash Bandicoot had that.

I loved the Zak and Wiki game, my mother tried it and she was stuck on several places namely because you have to flip the crank to fit it into the hole.
True, however both weren't visually busy, as most games are these days. The colouring is pretty much iconic and mentally ingrained now.