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bartholen_v1legacy

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Jan 24, 2009
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I started playing the Valkyria Chronicles remaster for the PS4 recently, and have been enjoying it a lot. It feels like a WW2 Fire Emblem, with some 3rd person shooter elements mixed in, and I like the emphasis on tactics and balancing out the team for each mission. I'd say it's a downright great game!

...in a gameplay sense.

What feels weird to me is that I hardly watch anime, and I can count the amount of JRPGs I've actually played with almost one hand alone, so I shouldn't be so inundated with this. But Valkyria Chronicles still feels like wading through the absolute worst mush of JRPG and anime tropes imaginable. I feel like I'm barely getting started (like seriously, I only just played the mission where Welkin and Alicia rejoin their squad after separation), yet there's already been at least 5 occasions that have made me groan aloud at what I guess could be called anime nonsense. I have a hard time tolerating it as is (most often I've come across it in a fantasy or sci-fi setting), but when it's juxtaposed against a backdrop of essentially WW2 with all the accompanying concepts, it becomes borderline unbearable.

- Before the mission with the giant tank and Selvaria, the heroes suddenly just randomly bump into essentially Hitler. And they recognize him, realize that this is their opportunity to take him out, and what do they do? Only one proceeds to even point a gun at him, while the other two just stand there, not even trying to cut off his passage or anything. And instead of riddling him with bullets and jumping on the corpse until it turns into mashed potatoes they just let him walk away! Cut to the start of the next mission and boom! Suddenly he's in a gigantic battle tank! What the fuck are you guys doing? You're supposed to be trained fucking professionals!

- This is just a nitpick, but it bugs the shit out of me when at the start of each mission Welkin essentially gives the go via radio, and yet he's talking like he's addressing an entire company of soldiers in medieval times. They can hear you dude! You don't need to raise your voice. Just enunciate properly and they'll get it.

- Please tell me that Alicia is going to evolve from the nightmare of anime girl cliches she's been so far. It'd be fine were it not for the fact that her rank is actually sergeant. Granted, during war time times are drastically different, but I'd imagine this squeamish, emotional tsundere nightmare reaching lance-corporal at best. The narrative dissonance is perhaps more pronounced in her character more than anyone, since she's perfectly fine with shooting people in the head at point blank range, but touching animal droppings, eeeewwwww!

- The worst was the cutscene after the mission where Welkin and Alicia have to sneak through the night by themselves. They hole up at a cabin for the night (of course not having one of them stand guard, set up a barricade, block the windows or even sleep out of sight, fucking ANYTHING), and tend to an enemy soldier's wounds who comes across them. The soldier dies, and they bury him outside. In the morning enemy troops discover them, and see the grave they gave to the soldier. The way the scene played out almost made me pull my hair out. It had all the storytelling subtlety of a sledgehammer to the fucking nuts. Of course they couldn't let it be just one soldier. Of course the superiors had to show up. And of course you had to spell out multiple fucking times that they dug a grave to one of their enemies despite this scene having been much more effective without dialogue, and about one fifth the length. But then you had to have Alicia go on a whole tirade about humanity, friendship and how we're all still the same and yadda yadda. This was where the setting really really worked against the scene: in a fantasy setting it wouldn't be so out of place, since high flying concepts like honour, chivalry, heroism and such are expected in that kind of context. But in WW2 it's just unbearably cheesy.
Valkyria Chronicles is by no means the only game that's gotten my teeth grinding over stuff like this. Hell, Final Fantasy X is possibly even worse, and it's still a great game which I love playing. Outside of games another example is Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood, a great series which I'll heartily recommend, yet it's still plagued by the same issues: nonsensical, tonally inconsistent chibi humor, overemotional drama, lack of subtlety in the storytelling (at times, since Brotherhood is actually more subtle in its storytelling than what I'm getting at). Even Ni No Kuni, which was praised for its story and mostly managed to stay away from this kind of thing, had me on occasion rolling my eyes at the animu nonsense.

TL;DR: Valkyria Chronicles is another example of an otherwise great product where its storytelling and characters actively hamper my enjoyment of it. I enjoy the core gameplay greatly, but if I have to stick my fingers into my ears every time someone is talking, the game just ain't working all properly for me. What are your examples of this?

As a final sendoff, the episode structure in the game is just retarded. Why do I essentially have to press the play button after about every 20 seconds in a cutscene. Why are they split into multiple scenes? Just let me watch the whole thing in one go, dammit!
 

Sniper Team 4

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So basically...you agree with Yahtzee on this game? Because yeah, this is exactly what he hated about it too.


Bad news mate, the anime flavor isn't going anywhere. In fact, I would say it might even get worse. As I'm sure you've figured out, Squad 7 is going to be the only people who can stop the big bad guy, so you know "that" speech is coming. Also, don't know if you've picked up on it yet or not, but the relationship between the enemy general and his girl only goes one way, so you can guess how that's going to end, I'm sure.
To the game's credit, there is one scene (I don't think you've gotten to it yet) that will probably hit the right cord for you, but the following scenes kind of screw it up. It is a rare case where the actual anime of the game does a better job than the game.

If I may try to address some of you points directly though:

The reason the other didn't pull out guns when they ran into the Emperor is because Selvaria would have turned them into paste. When the big bad guy is walking around ruins with only one person as his guard, and shows complete disregard to a superior with weapons trained on him, it's usually a clue that he can wipe you out with a simple hand gesture. Again, it's an anime thing--and in fact, in the anime, one of them does try to do just that, and Selvaria cuts the bullet in two, if I remember right. So yeah, silver hair girl wasn't going to let them get away with anything, as I'm sure you noticed in the next mission, since you couldn't hurt her.

Alicia...kind of gets better(?). It's really going to be up to you. She certainly opens up to Welkin, as I'm sure you've noticed, and once she unlocks are her talents, the girl becomes the BEST player in the entire game, but she is still very much an anime character. And remember, the only reason she was promoted as high as she was is because of where she came from and how hard she fought.
There are two different military factions at work here. The regular military, and the militia. Alicia is part of the militia, which kind of treats is soldiers better and values them differently than the regular army. Because you're right, in the regular army, she probably wouldn't have even been let in, let alone prompted to where she is now. But because she's proven herself a leader in the militia, she is given her rank.


What I found most annoying about the game is that, in order to get the best rank, you had to finish the map in a stupid amount of turns. Seriously, many of these missions can be beaten in one or two turns, tops. And to me, that's not the point of the game. I like digging in and holding off the enemy, or hunting down the enemy, or moving my entire force as a unit, or sending snipers to provide cover fire. I don't enjoy having one person blitz across the field while everyone else just stands there. Still, for the platinum, it had to be done, so...
 

Erttheking

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Oh don't get me fucking going on that game. I wanted to like it, I really did, but the characters made me want to chew my own face off. Fuck, I have a laundry list of problems I wrote about it a long time ago, let me see if I can find it...FOUND IT!

The games I played didn't prepare me for it. I play JRPGs all the time and it was INSUFFERABLE to me.

I can't pin down why. Maybe it's because it's basically babeh's first WW II game, maybe it's because the way they handle racism is so painfully simple, maybe it's because I had a moment where I say a soldier who was gay, thought it'd be cool to have him be in my unit only to have him scream "HELLO SAILOR!" and I groaned 'Of...course." maybe it's because it tries to do the War is Hell thing but can't fucking commit to it (Not to mention Wolfenstein the New Order, This War of Mine, Spec Ops the Line and Valiant Hearts all did it and all did it BETTER), maybe it's because it tries to do the Grey and Gray morality thing by having both of the big nations be morally questionable, except the way the make the not!Allies evil is really fucking forced and for all intents and purposes, the bad guys are Nazis. I don't care if they have a more Russian inspiration, they're playing the role of fucking Nazis, and I don't consider humanizing them to have one scene where they treat one soldier and one general is thankful before they go back to mowing them down. Maybe it's because the main character outranks the more experienced female lead because protagonist and I TOTES WENT TO OFFICER SCHOOL OFF SCREEN AND IT'S NEVER MENTIONED IN GAME BUT IT HAPPENED! Maybe it's because how the pacifistic nation has conscription making it seem hypocritical, maybe it's how the protagonist says "Gotta love the smell of nature" while driving a tank towards enemy lines makes him sound like a psychopath, maybe it's because the old man at the graveyard feels like he should be in a game that takes itself more seriously, maybe its how some of the characters seem a little too fucking quirky for people who live in a nation that is under attack by a vastly superior foe, maybe it's how apparently the female lead has to have a man reign in her emotions to keep her from destroying everyone.

I don't know, but as someone who really likes JRPGs and even serious situations with a lot of zanny humor (SMT has the world usually at stake, but also demons that talk like stereotypical punks) I can't STAND Valkyria Chronicles.

Also the gameplay is kinda shit too. Massive downgrade from XCOM. RNG to see if you can get your shots in a system where you manually aim just doesn't fit and the game feels too loose compared to the well structured XCOM.

I think that sums it up. Glad I found this.

Also there should not be a beach episode in a game that has to go to not!Auschwitz
 

Souplex

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Could be worse, it could be Fire Emblem.
The transformation of Fire Emblem reminds me of dealing with my grandma's Alzheimer's. They get further and further away from what you loved every day, but you can still see momentary glimpses of how wonderful they used to be. You know it's not going to get better, but you keep coming back out of a sense of duty for what used to be.
 

Michel Henzel

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Damn, I almost feel like I played a completely different Valkyria Chronicles cause I can't really find myself agreeing with almost any of the complaints.
 

bartholen_v1legacy

A dyslexic man walks into a bra.
Jan 24, 2009
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Souplex said:
Could be worse, it could be Fire Emblem.
The transformation of Fire Emblem reminds me of dealing with my grandma's Alzheimer's. They get further and further away from what you loved every day, but you can still see momentary glimpses of how wonderful they used to be. You know it's not going to get better, but you keep coming back out of a sense of duty for what used to be.
Oh poop.

I played Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones on GBA when I was a kid, and had basically the same case to present about it. It was absolutely chock full of the typical JRPG piffle, but thankfully it could always be skipped with the push of a button. I've thought about getting the new one for 3DS since it's been getting so much praise. But if you say it's actually gotten worse in that aspect, I might leave it be.
 

Pseudonym

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bartholen said:
- Before the mission with the giant tank and Selvaria, the heroes suddenly just randomly bump into essentially Hitler. And they recognize him, realize that this is their opportunity to take him out, and what do they do? Only one proceeds to even point a gun at him, while the other two just stand there, not even trying to cut off his passage or anything. And instead of riddling him with bullets and jumping on the corpse until it turns into mashed potatoes they just let him walk away! Cut to the start of the next mission and boom! Suddenly he's in a gigantic battle tank! What the fuck are you guys doing? You're supposed to be trained fucking professionals!

- Please tell me that Alicia is going to evolve from the nightmare of anime girl cliches she's been so far. It'd be fine were it not for the fact that her rank is actually sergeant. Granted, during war time times are drastically different, but I'd imagine this squeamish, emotional tsundere nightmare reaching lance-corporal at best. The narrative dissonance is perhaps more pronounced in her character more than anyone, since she's perfectly fine with shooting people in the head at point blank range, but touching animal droppings, eeeewwwww!
I remember quitting fire embling awakening a few missions in after every single charactar had issues like these. A sensible medieval militairy group would have immediately imprisoned and interrogated the main charactar for being suspicious and weird to the extreme as well as manifestly untrustworthy and a probable threath to the prince (that, or just kill him/her outright), would have left the squeamish 15 year old princes at home or would have had her older brother tell her to stop whining, would tell several of the charactars to cut out the attitude when working in the elite guard of royalty and would not accept as a joke the stupidity of a lot of these charactars. (I forgot to bring my weapon to a battle, HURR DURR) I quit when the sergeant/secondary leader of the group decided to hang naked pictures of the leader (the prince) around to 'boost morale'. I've been told that earlier fire emblem games aren't as pervasively and offensively stupid so I might try them out if I have the chance but how in heavens do people like awakening?

I could pardon these things if any of it was actually funny, but as you might be able to tell from the examples above, the humour lacks any sort of wit or sensitivity whatsoever and doesn't combine with the games attempted story and theme (in as far as we van speak of themes when discussing this nonsense) at all. Even just skipping all the story bits took way too long. Add to that that I didn't think the gameplay was that brilliant, and I just quit.

I had similar complaints about valkyria chronicles. I'll just let kim jong-ill sum up what I think about these games:

 

NPC009

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Aug 23, 2010
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bartholen said:
Souplex said:
Could be worse, it could be Fire Emblem.
The transformation of Fire Emblem reminds me of dealing with my grandma's Alzheimer's. They get further and further away from what you loved every day, but you can still see momentary glimpses of how wonderful they used to be. You know it's not going to get better, but you keep coming back out of a sense of duty for what used to be.
Oh poop.

I played Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones on GBA when I was a kid, and had basically the same case to present about it. It was absolutely chock full of the typical JRPG piffle, but thankfully it could always be skipped with the push of a button. I've thought about getting the new one for 3DS since it's been getting so much praise. But if you say it's actually gotten worse in that aspect, I might leave it be.
Shipping everything that has reproductive parts has become a pretty big part of the franchise and it's, well, super anime. Who do you prefer? Cute cat girl? Hot wolf man? Personal ninja? Anti-social butler? Your cousin? One of your eight 'siblings'? And while Conquest does have great map designs and challenging gameplay, the story is so poorly written it's insultingly stupid.
 

Bob_McMillan

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Examples of things that are 2nimu4me, of examples of storytelling and characters hampering the game?

Considering this is off-topic, I guess you mean the former?

Hero no boku Academia is supposedly the hottest new shonen, but hot damn, am I tired of this shit. So much "IF I SHOUT LOUDER I WILL BE MORE POWERRFFFUULLLLLL!!!!!!", and being too kind (FFS stand up for yourself you twit), and rivals being way too assholey, the main character being such a special little snowflake. Essentially, everything that makes it a shonen. It drove me to watch and read things like Black Lagoon and Gangsta.

For the latter, well, I still havent played ME3 no matter how much people say they've fixed it, I have just heard way too much bad shit about the ending. Which sucks, because I have also heard the gameplay is pretty fun.
 

bartholen_v1legacy

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Pseudonym said:
I've been told that earlier fire emblem games aren't as pervasively and offensively stupid so I might try them out if I have the chance but how in heavens do people like awakening?
I can only speak for Sacred Stones' story and characters, but mostly they're just bland to the blandest. There's little actively irritating or insulting about it, since while the characters are a cavalcade of walking cliches, they're not extreme enough to be caricatures. And the ones that are have thankfully little focus put on them. What both surprised and annoyed me was that evolving the support conversations between the characters actually revealed surprisingly good writing and character depth. While this did raise the quality of the story a bit, it also bewilders me why it was hidden so deep. To evolve the support levels the characters need to be placed adjacent to each other. And this needs to be done so many times I literally lost count. The amount of times this needs to be done to get to the highest level has got to be at triple digits.

Bob_McMillan said:
Considering this is off-topic, I guess you mean the former?

Hero no boku Academia is supposedly the hottest new shonen, but hot damn, am I tired of this shit. So much "IF I SHOUT LOUDER I WILL BE MORE POWERRFFFUULLLLLL!!!!!!", and being too kind (FFS stand up for yourself you twit), and rivals being way too assholey, the main character being such a special little snowflake. Essentially, everything that makes it a shonen. It drove me to watch and read things like Black Lagoon and Gangsta.
Have you watched One Punch Man? It's a fabulous parody of exactly that, almost an anti-shounen. It's fantastic!
 

Bob_McMillan

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bartholen said:
Bob_McMillan said:
Considering this is off-topic, I guess you mean the former?

Hero no boku Academia is supposedly the hottest new shonen, but hot damn, am I tired of this shit. So much "IF I SHOUT LOUDER I WILL BE MORE POWERRFFFUULLLLLL!!!!!!", and being too kind (FFS stand up for yourself you twit), and rivals being way too assholey, the main character being such a special little snowflake. Essentially, everything that makes it a shonen. It drove me to watch and read things like Black Lagoon and Gangsta.
Have you watched One Punch Man? It's a fabulous parody of exactly that, almost an anti-shounen. It's fantastic!
Oh, I watched that way earlier than Hero no Boku Academia, which is one reason why I hated HnBA even more. I loved One Punch Man, because not only do they make fun of cut straight through all the shonen bullshit, they still have some the best action scenes ever.
 

Neuromancer

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Neptunia and Agarest.

I just cannot for the life of me get to like the writing in either of those series. Neptunia's only saving virtue is its meta-humour, but the characters themselves I've found obnoxious and filling every animu archetype there is. Agarest is an even worse offender at that, with most of its characters being largely one-dimensional on top of being very cliche.
 

Pseudonym

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bartholen said:
Pseudonym said:
I've been told that earlier fire emblem games aren't as pervasively and offensively stupid so I might try them out if I have the chance but how in heavens do people like awakening?
I can only speak for Sacred Stones' story and characters, but mostly they're just bland to the blandest. There's little actively irritating or insulting about it, since while the characters are a cavalcade of walking cliches, they're not extreme enough to be caricatures. And the ones that are have thankfully little focus put on them. What both surprised and annoyed me was that evolving the support conversations between the characters actually revealed surprisingly good writing and character depth. While this did raise the quality of the story a bit, it also bewilders me why it was hidden so deep. To evolve the support levels the characters need to be placed adjacent to each other. And this needs to be done so many times I literally lost count. The amount of times this needs to be done to get to the highest level has got to be at triple digits.
The one that has been recommended to me is 'sword of flame'. Don't know if it's good but the stories told to me about it were promising. As for the support conversations hidden behind combined combat, yeah, that is unfortunate because it means I have to restrict my gameplay options for entirely silly storyreasons, breaking both immersion and gameplay. Once you know though, you might as well just put those charactars together to get the most out of the story and consider it a bit of extra challenge.
 

SlumlordThanatos

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NPC009 said:
bartholen said:
Souplex said:
Could be worse, it could be Fire Emblem.
The transformation of Fire Emblem reminds me of dealing with my grandma's Alzheimer's. They get further and further away from what you loved every day, but you can still see momentary glimpses of how wonderful they used to be. You know it's not going to get better, but you keep coming back out of a sense of duty for what used to be.
Oh poop.

I played Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones on GBA when I was a kid, and had basically the same case to present about it. It was absolutely chock full of the typical JRPG piffle, but thankfully it could always be skipped with the push of a button. I've thought about getting the new one for 3DS since it's been getting so much praise. But if you say it's actually gotten worse in that aspect, I might leave it be.
Shipping everything that has reproductive parts has become a pretty big part of the franchise and it's, well, super anime. Who do you prefer? Cute cat girl? Hot wolf man? Personal ninja? Anti-social butler? Your cousin? One of your eight 'siblings'? And while Conquest does have great map designs and challenging gameplay, the story is so poorly written it's insultingly stupid.
The funny thing is that they hired a manga writer to do the story after the negative feedback from Awakening.

But seriously, the shipping was most of why I played that game, and once I beat Birthright (which was the first path I bought), I just kinda...drifted away. I mean, I loved the Persona series for many of the same reasons; the Social Link system lends complexity to the characters, and even gives some character growth to otherwise minor characters you would never meet. In Fire Emblem, there are just too many characters to make them all distinct without making them stereotypical. What's more, from a gameplay perspective, they took away much of the complexity that made Blazing Sword and Sacred Stones so good (I want the freaking trinity of magic back), and the writing only got worse as it went. It still sold like hotcakes, which gives me hope that it'll get better.

I guess now I know how Final Fantasy fans feel.
 

Souplex

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bartholen said:
Souplex said:
Could be worse, it could be Fire Emblem.
The transformation of Fire Emblem reminds me of dealing with my grandma's Alzheimer's. They get further and further away from what you loved every day, but you can still see momentary glimpses of how wonderful they used to be. You know it's not going to get better, but you keep coming back out of a sense of duty for what used to be.
Oh poop.

I played Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones on GBA when I was a kid, and had basically the same case to present about it. It was absolutely chock full of the typical JRPG piffle, but thankfully it could always be skipped with the push of a button. I've thought about getting the new one for 3DS since it's been getting so much praise. But if you say it's actually gotten worse in that aspect, I might leave it be.
Story wise it goes Path of Radiance > Radiant Dawn > No Subtitle (First one released in Freedomland, Blazing Sword in Japan) > While there is no game in between these two in terms of quality, I feel I need to illustrate the large gap of story and gameplay quality by going on this long shpiel here. > Sacred Stones > That previous quality gap I mentioned? Double it in length... Is it long enough yet? No. I guess I should keep talking then to illustrate how large the quality gap is. I suppose it will be sufficiently illustrated... Now. > Shadow Dragon > Being tied to a chair and surrounded by frat boys with tazers > Awakening > Fates: Conquest. (Conquest's story hurt so much that I couldn't bring myself to play the other Fates)
This chart mostly lines up with gameplay quality too, although there isn't a huge gap between No Subtitle and Sacred Stones there, Radiant Dawn has a much better late-game than Path's much better earlier game, and Fates is better gameplay-wise than Awakening or Shadow Dragon.
 

NPC009

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SlumlordThanatos said:
The funny thing is that they hired a manga writer to do the story after the negative feedback from Awakening.
Yeah, I know, the Kindaichi dude. A writer who has no business writing stories that involve human emotions.

But seriously, the shipping was most of why I played that game, and once I beat Birthright (which was the first path I bought), I just kinda...drifted away. I mean, I loved the Persona series for many of the same reasons; the Social Link system lends complexity to the characters, and even gives some character growth to otherwise minor characters you would never meet. In Fire Emblem, there are just too many characters to make them all distinct without making them stereotypical. What's more, from a gameplay perspective, they took away much of the complexity that made Blazing Sword and Sacred Stones so good (I want the freaking trinity of magic back), and the writing only got worse as it went. It still sold like hotcakes, which gives me hope that it'll get better.

I guess now I know how Final Fantasy fans feel.
I like interaction between characters as well and I love it when games take the time to flesh characters out like that, but Fates wasn't all that good at it. Not only are many support conversations simply inane, there are also many that clash with or actively damage the character. For instance, the Xander in support conversations is very different from the Xander in the story (probably thanks to having different writers working on different parts of the game). And some of the S-ranks are just... terrible, like Azama and Sakura, or Orochi and Takumi. These pairings make little sense to begin with and the conversations actively make them worse.

And the sad thing is, if they had used the number of support conversations to its full potential, many characters could have been developed more; moved further away from archetype central.
 

balladbird

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hmm... I can see where you're coming from. I don't really share your issues with the game I felt it handled its anime-ness as well as you can honestly expect a jrpg to, but I suppose the line for when something is too animu is in the eye of the beholder.

For my part, I do know what you're going through, though. I started playing through the "trails of cold steel" games a month or so ago. Magnificent games. solid turn-based combat, an enormous world full of lore, multi-faceted and complex politics governing the actions of the game's heroes and villains, making things much more complex than "good guys versus bad guys", every NPC has a storyarc that progresses as the game does, making the world truly feel alive...

...aaaand within the first hour of the game you're introduced to a stereotypical high-school protagonist setting, and one of the first events that plays out is the old anime chestnut of "characters fall, and lead male accidentally touches breast of female classmate, who reacts as if it was done on purpose and blows up at him, holding onto her anger for months"

I very nearly stopped playing right then and there. I turned the game off, and spent a few hours doing other things, wondering if there was any way to turn things around after such an annoying bombardment of cliches.

I would have cost myself the experience of one of the best sets of games I'd played all year... all because the opening hour or so was just sooooo damn heavy with the anime-ness
 

Erttheking

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inu-kun said:
If you liked it, then good. I'm honestly glad you could like a game I couldn't. But the way they handled it felt like it was out of Sesame Street to me. And that's selling Sesame Street short. Comparing people to music and saying "Well not all music is the same," made me want to roll my eyes so hard that they would pop out of my head.

When I look for a three dimensional racist, I look to Fisher Tiger from One Piece. It worked there because he DIDN'T get over his racism towards humans. There wasn't a line of dialogue from an after school special that had a major impact on the way he viewed the world. He died a racist and he hated himself for it. This game had racist heroes in it, but at the end of the day everything just felt way too cut and clean.

And "Dark hair" is not a good slur.

And I already had the conversation with someone else about neutral nations way back when, and that this country was probably trying to be like Switzerland. Except they had to give it the JRPG treatment, making it so that instead of doing what Switzerland did in WW II (Shoot anyone who crosses the border, don't peruse beyond) they have to strike at the heart of the evil empire and destroy their super tank, defeat their demi-god, liberate the not!concentration camp and-Jesus Christ if I go on I'm going to puke up a rainbow.

In other words, in order to make this work they had to make the villains even more stupid than the actual Nazis, and those guys made quite a few blunders. Hitler thought he could fight a war on two fronts, but even he left Switzerland alone.