3D Castlevania games worth playing (not including Lords of Shadow series)?

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dscross

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Kotaro said:
And the thing about level design is that being slapdash just doesn't cut it. Good level design is deliberate, meticulous. Everything has a purpose. Even an empty room should have some reason to be there beyond just filling space. It takes repeated testing and revision, even if each round is just tiny tweaks. You can't just build a box and throw enemies into it and call it a day. That's lazy. And that seems to be what they did with Dawn of Sorrow and especially Portrait of Ruin. There's no cohesion. It doesn't feel like a real place, nothing flows into anything else naturally. Sure, it's incredibly rare for a video game level to have a layout anything like a place would in real life, but when it's designed well, it still feels real enough that the player doesn't notice that it's nothing like a real place. And when exploration is the central part of a game, as it is in Metroidvania, good level design is vital.
This even applies to game design as a whole: every game mechanic should tie together and complement every other game mechanic. It's almost like assembling a jigsaw puzzle: the individual pieces serve to come together and form a single unified whole, and when your pieces don't connect perfectly, the result is a mess that doesn't fit. It's really hard to explain how to do this right, because when you do it right, the player doesn't notice. It's only when you screw up that it really becomes noticeable.

Come to think of it, the fact that you admit you rarely used the DSS cards in Circle of the Moon kind of proves my point that it's a worthless mechanic that really doesn't belong in the game.
I think some of it is subjective as to what you find enjoyable tbh. There were very few parts of these games where I wasn't enjoying myself. Therefore, I rank them towards the top. I wasn't over analysing how the castle was designed because I was loving exploring it all so there wasn't much for me the pick apart. I honestly don't recognise much of what you are saying here about PoR or DoS's level design so I can't really come back with a detailed argument against it. I didn't feel they flowed badly or that they were empty or anything like that, although I can't remember all of it.
 

Kotaro

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dscross said:
I think some of it is subjective as to what you find enjoyable tbh. There were very few parts of these games where I wasn't enjoying myself. Therefore, I rank them towards the top. I wasn't over analysing how the castle was designed because I was loving exploring it all so there wasn't much for me the pick apart. I honestly don't recognise much of what you are saying here about PoR or DoS's level design so I can't really come back with a detailed argument against it. I didn't feel they flowed badly or that they were empty or anything like that, although I can't remember all of it.
Yeah, the value that different people place on parts of a game is a very subjective thing. I personally have a strong appreciation for more deliberate design and even little things that are messy or out of place stick out to me and can make it a lot harder to enjoy the game, because I find them hard to ignore (it might be an autism thing, I don't know; I just know that I tend to see the minute details easily).

When you don't design your levels and your game systems with strong intent, it just creates this jarring feeling, and one poorly-planned thing can even sometimes affect seemingly unrelated parts of a game in unexpected ways. Actually, I can give an example of this: Dawn of Sorrow's weapon upgrade system.
Being able to fuse collected souls into weapons to upgrade the weapon and make a new one seems like a natural extension of the mechanics, yeah? The problem is that it's the wrong type of game for it, because most of the fun in a Metroidvania is exploring the world to find things. When you discover a hidden room and find a powerful weapon inside, it feels great! Your effort to find that hidden room is rewarded and your motivation to keep exploring to find more hidden things is redoubled.
But when all the most powerful weapons come from an upgrade system, then you end up in a situation where, odds are, any weapon you pick up in a side path or hidden room will be inferior to what you've already created via upgrades. It becomes rarer to find worthwhile rewards while exploring, which removes a lot of the motivation to actually explore.
The weapon upgrade system is one of those design choices that seems like a neat idea but doesn't fit with the rest of the game and ends up making a mess of it. It's one of those ill-fitting puzzle pieces.
 

Drake the Dragonheart

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I own curse of darkness for my original xbox and I loved it. it's more or less Castlevania Pokemon. or that's what it felt like anyways. loved the score

I own that as well as Order of Ecclesia and Circle of the Moon.
played the snot out of both, the later in particular. Beat the game with every mode, got all 5 to level 99. About the DSS I will say this. I always wondered why some of the combos weren't intelligence based rather than strength. I mean it makes sense that a mage's summon/magic attacks would be much stronger right?
as for difficulty, vampire killer Nathan (the starting mode) could survive the arena if well prepared around level 50ish, by 60 run it easily and 65 up just blast through it. Magician I leveled by killing lilith. around level 80 was when this mode could handle arena. fighter could run through arena like a hot wind as soon as he could reach it, roughly around level 42. shooter (sub-weapon specialization) could do it better than magician, almost on par with vampire killer despite poorer HP/DEF. thief was all about the luck, stack 99 of all but the rarest items easily, which had a strange effect on difficulty.

at least this game didn't have my cardinal sin of boss fight BS, which is the boss goes off somewhere where you can't attack them at all but they can still hit you. (Phantasy Star could be real bad for that!)

However now that I think of it Dracula's demon form in CoD was guilty of this as well.
Strangely, trying to pinpoint exactly what it was I loved about all 3 I mentioned, I am hardpressed to say exactly what it was.
 

BrawlMan

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dscross said:
CoCage said:
Since everybody else talk about the PS2 or 5th generation Castlevania games I can give you some 3D games that are similar to Castlevania. I can recommend Devil May Cry 1 and Devil May Cry 3. This is especially true for the first game, because you are in a castle. The lead designer, Hideki Kamiya, even admits that the original Castlevania was a huge inspiration for him. Do know that the controls for the original Devil May Cry haven't aged well, but it's still very playable and you will get used to it.
I'm only really asking if they are worth playing for the sake of completing the series to be honest because I have literally done all of the others (and there are loads). I'm a big fan of both the Classic and Metroid-esk style of Castlevania, but, in general, I'm not a huge fan of hack and slash stuff. I, personally, find them a bit repetitive and not terribly interesting.
No problem. But if you get the chance at least Play Devil May Cry 3. The first game can get kind of repetitive, because most part you'll be using the sword on your first playthrough at least. At least with the third game there's more variety and weapons, movement, combat, and play style. Not to mention, DMC 3 has that mix of classic Castlevania and metroidvania. It rewards exploration, and you revisit certain areas but they changed later on. So it's not just lazy copy and paste. The only difference is that in DMC 3, you are in a Gothic Tower instead of a castle.

There's also Dark Souls for Bloodborne if you're into those games, but I don't know if you are not. They have also been called some of the best 3D Castlevania games ever.
 

Tanis

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Lament of Innocent (PS2) / Curse of Darkness (PS2 / Xbox):
I really like the PS2 games. They're both worth at least a play-though.

Legacy of Darkness (N64) / The majority of Castlevania 64 (N64):
The N64 I have some nostalgia for, but I don't think they're actually very good (overall).

Castlevania Judgement (Wii):
It's shit. It's shit. It's...wait for it...SHIT.
 

immortalfrieza

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dscross said:
I've now played every 2D Castlevania game going. I literally had a list of them that I was working through.

Now I'm just up to the 3D games. I suppose I may as well finish now. I've played a little bit of Castlevania 64 before. I really didn't like that game, but I'm willing to give it another chance if there are people out there who can recommend it. I've also already done all of the Lords of Shadow Series. I'll be honest, wasn't a huge fan. Didn't feel like Castlevania to me - although I did get all the way through so I can't have hated them completely.

So, I've basically played every Castlevania game now except...

Lament of Innocent (PS2)
Curse of Darkness (PS2 / Xbox)
Legacy of Darkness (N64)
The majority of Castlevania 64 (N64)
Castlevania Judgement (Wii)

Are these worth my time? Please explain to me why they are good if they are (not just that you like them). I am a big Castlevania fan, but I really didn't like Castlevania 64 at all and I've heard quite negative things about the others.
Going against Kotaro, I'd say that Curse of Darkness is easily among the best Castlevania games and the best of the 3D ones hands down. It has great story and gameplay and it's PS2 so the graphics are dated but meh. To give you a quick idea of what it's like, it's pretty much what Symphony of the Night and the other 2D Castlevania games like it would be if they were 3D instead of 2D.
 

Kotaro

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immortalfrieza said:
Going against Kotaro, I'd say that Curse of Darkness is easily among the best Castlevania games and the best of the 3D ones hands down. It has great story and gameplay and it's PS2 so the graphics are dated but meh. To give you a quick idea of what it's like, it's pretty much what Symphony of the Night and the other 2D Castlevania games like it would be if they were 3D instead of 2D.
Really? Really? "Pretty much Symphony of the Night in 3D?" If you like the game, good for you, I'm a bit envious, but it's honestly insulting that you would compare Curse of Darkness to Symphony of the Night. I have bashed Portrait of Ruin to high heaven in this thread, but honestly Curse of Darkness's level design is even worse, somehow. I swear, you couldn't make worse level design than what you find in CoD if you tried. I really wanted to love Curse of Darkness. The characters are awesome. The story is really cool. The soundtrack and atmosphere are phenomenal.
But the level design isn't even really "design" in any sense of the word. It just exists for the sake of existing. It's a glut of space that strives for nothing except being huge. Every location is just a sprawling map of infinitely copy-pasted boxy rooms and corridors with nothing interesting in them. It's like they wanted to be able to call it "the biggest Castlevania game yet!" on the back of the box (which it actually does say), so they just built a handful of rooms and copied them over and over and over until they had a "massive" world that feels lifeless and empty. And it's impossible not to notice how repetitive the environments are once you inevitably end up with deja vu so strong that you need to open the map to make sure you aren't just going in circles. Sure, you can choose your own paths through the semi-nonlinear levels to an extent, but when there's so little to see, you have no reason to actually explore. Playing through the game, sometimes I wonder why they even gave you a jump button (let alone a double jump) because the game almost never gives you any platforming to do, any reason to actually use that jump button, and if that doesn't demonstrate how asinine the level "design" in this game is, nothing will.
Basically nothing is utilized well in this game. Perfect example: there's that one bit a little ways into the game where you can't get to the next area because there's a gap in the path. So you fight a boss, get an Innocent Devil that can fly, and use it to fly over the hole. And then that ability to fly is never used again, except for one other time at the end. This is something I mentioned in a previous post. Most of the other Innocent Devils are pretty much the same, like the one that moves heavy objects. You only need them once or twice, and there's barely any use for them in the rest of the game. In a good Metroidvania, even the most situational abilities have uses beyond just opening new pathways. Again, I said this before: a double jump gives you better aerial mobility, a slide can be used to dodge attacks, even something like the underutilized wolf form in Symphony of the Night lets you run faster to get through long corridors more quickly. Everything in Curse of Darkness seems clunky and forced. The monster raising mechanic is cool, but largely pointless in practice.
Oh, and in the same vein, I just remembered those god-awful cannon segments that control poorly and really don't belong in the game. It feels like they were added just because.
And the combat is utter shit. Lament of Innocence is probably the best point of contrast, since it's so similar, and its level design wasn't great either, but at least the locations were a manageable size so the copy-pasted rooms didn't become as glaring and tedious, and the combat was actually pretty decent to make up for it. Leon was fun to control and fight with, his whip combos were really satisfying to dispatch enemies with. Hector, by contrast, feels just slow and clunky. His running speed is almost painfully average, his attacks feel wooden and underwhelming and it can sometimes feel hard to hit things as a result, dodging is way too stiff, and guarding is far more effective than it should be to maintain even the illusion of difficulty.
To the game's credit, there are some cool boss fights. But when the enemies all seem really stupid and weak and pretty much every encounter can be conquered with the exact same combat strategy, it gets really boring really quickly. Combat quickly devolves into: lock on to an enemy, mash the attack buttons until it dies, maybe sometimes hit the block or dodge button. Hell, even the boss fights have really terrible AI and the challenge almost exclusively comes from their bloated health bars.
Curse of Darkness is one of those games that has the benefit of gorgeous window dressing in the characters and mythos, but wastes it on a completely terrible game. I hate putting it this way, but it's style without substance. I remember one old review of the game that put it very well: "It's an album with pretty cover art and dull songs."
 

WhiteFangofWhoa

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The only one I would recommend is Lament of Innocence. I played through the N64 'Vanias when they came out and even back then I found control problems and other issues by the score. Felt more like a PS1 Resident Evil game (perhaps that's why Henry was the most fun character to play as).
 

dscross

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WhiteFangofWhoa said:
The only one I would recommend is Lament of Innocence. I played through the N64 'Vanias when they came out and even back then I found control problems and other issues by the score. Felt more like a PS1 Resident Evil game (perhaps that's why Henry was the most fun character to play as).
Well, I like the Resident Evil 1 Controls! ;)