3DS is Watching You: Activity-Logging and Anti-Piracy Features

[ShadowKatt]

How bad is it that it's starting to look like Microsoft is the only company out there NOT trying to actively fuck their customer base? Nintendo and their Big Brother DS by watching and recording everything you do, Sony and their crusade against GeoHot by confiscating peoples identities from around the world.

I swore a long time ago I'd NEVER get an xbox, and now it looks like they're my only option, at least until every xbox 720 requires a DNA sample to prove ownership of a game.

 

[Chrysocollus]

Homebrew is not the same as piracy. Consider this, making a program on the PC is common place, alot of people like to make games with various tools (Game Maker, RPG Maker, etc..). This is all homebrew is and it is perfectly legal. What makes it questionable is that on the DS or any other proprietary system is that you have to hack the system to be able to do it. The hacking the system is a violation of the DMCA. A lot of people see the DMCA as bullshit anyway though because indeed...you should be able to program your own computer no matter if Nintendo or HP made it. A game cosole/handheld is just a computer optimized to play games.

The DCMA, to my understanding, makes it illegal to circumvent measures to copyrighted works. Is homebrew considered copyrighted work? Else it really shouldn't be swept under the same sort of punishment as piracy.

Which brings up an interesting point: companies seem very laid back when it comes to your traditional style computer, but when you start messing with a console, they just get PISSED. Why is that?

Nintendo, like all game companies these days, wants to control your experience. For that reason they don't want you to be able to cheat. This is a fight going back more than 20 years for Nintendo.

I understand it bothering them if it pertains to online experience, but I don't quite get why they get all bothered about someone cheating on their own. But it probably also goes back to that last question I asked.

Well, we are reading about it now so I think Nintendo is checking the grass for snakes. On the one hand they want to see how people will react. On the other they want to get all disclaimers out there.

Yes, we are reading about it, cause we like video games a lot and frequent a website very dedicated to them. However, that isn't the average customer, and working in a retail outlet, I'm concerned about the availability of this information to someone that doesn't read and write about video games in their free time.

We have come to expect nasty things from the software industry as a whole so yeah...it would be weird for a software company not to use piracy as a scapegoat to get whatever it is they want. Here are some examples of what game companies have done:

- Get every player to sign up for an account to their website. Registration is no longer optional and it's called activation now.
- Monitor gameplay habits. This information is extremely valuable and it used to be hard for them to get. Today, they get it for free but in exchange for your privacy
- Stop things they do not approve of. Wanna cheat on SC2? Better use Blizzard approved cheats only or bad things might happen to your account.
- Prevent resell, loaning out or giving your game to a friend. Your product key can only be used one time thanks to "involuntary registration". You are very unlikely to give your account away with the key.

Just a start. Piracy is the perfect scapegoat.

Hahaha...when you put it like that...

 

[Negatempest]

Spoiler

Less arguing and more information on a detailed account on why this is bad. If not, than your angry because you cannot play an illegal copy of a game.

No.

Why is everyone that "fully supports" this, either says something like.. "If you're not doing anything wrong.." or "You must be a criminal if you disagree"..

Most people have their ear to the ground on this one, but I guess a lot of people don't. It's pretty simple, a lot of people are tired of corporate tomfoolery involving mistrust or spying. The majority of people are dissatisfied with how their government mistreats them or mishandles their taxes, etc. So when corporations start "blending in" with the game, people are usually going to throw up their arms in frustration by default.

You're basically throwing money at these people, and in return, you're graced with a tremendous amount of mistrust and, quite literally, you are spied on.

If you're just looking at all of this with a narrow-view, then you're doing it wrong.

It's not paranoia anymore if a company says, "You give us money, and then we are going to spy on you." However, Nintendo is obviously farming select biometric data for alien abductions, I know this because the people from Mars told me so.

You answered half of my question, I should have highlighted my main question even more. How is what the 3DS doing any different than what our current computers have done for years? What stops microsoft from selling your personal information...oh yeah, laws. So i'm pretty damn sure that the 3DS follows the same laws that microsoft had to follow for years. Again, if your paranoid about what the 3DS is doing you should not even be on the internet right now.

Yeah cause the internet is going to brick my PC and count my steps. Anyway, gotta go pick DA2 from Gamestop. Hope BioWare has the game unlocked at midnight (about 10 mins from now).

Yes, yes it will! The internet has already been reported more times than can be counted bricking thousands of computers. Hackers, viruses, worms, all this stuff will not only brick a piece of hardware that price ranges from $500-up but can also take your personal information. This is FAR more damaging to your personal life than what the 3DS could EVER do. Thus if your not on the net, you don't have to worry about such a thing, EVER. No fear of a wifi/wireless attack of any kind.
My own computer has suffered pretty damn serious virus attacks and I know it is my own risk of going online. The 3DS is nothing compared to the very risk i'm putting myself in just responding to you now.

p.s. To "complain" about the 3DS in this point of time considering that we have been using hardware that does what the 3DS does and even more..for YEARS is both redundant and paranoia brought to a whole different lvl. Heck a certain famous person's phone was hacked not to long ago and you don't see people refusing to use that phone brand. It's just ridiculous to be mad a something that is just doing what we have already been exposed to for years. You want to argue against Nintendo? Than stop using a computer, ipad, and iphone which does the same thing or even more personal.

 

[Exosus]

Goes without saying I'm not buying a console that tracks my every move. I might have bought this purely for the interesting technology, but I'd rather throw the money in a bonfire than reward this sort of behavior.

 

[Scars Unseen]

Wow. Never has a system gone from a sure purchase to my own personal blacklist so fast. WiFi always on? Remote bricking? Fuck you, Nintendo. Maybe after it inevitably gets hacked, I'll consider buying one. I'll get it used so that Nintendo doesn't profit off of my purchase.

 

[Negatempest]

Okay, even more. We have known for months, MONTHS that the 3DS had a "always on" wifi feature, and we are just getting retaliation to it now? Slow anyone...or as I honestly believe, you don't really give a **** and just want on the band wagon. Like we ever want the 3DS to ever keep records of us like some..."computer"...

 

[Scars Unseen]

Spoiler

Less arguing and more information on a detailed account on why this is bad. If not, than your angry because you cannot play an illegal copy of a game.

No.

Why is everyone that "fully supports" this, either says something like.. "If you're not doing anything wrong.." or "You must be a criminal if you disagree"..

Most people have their ear to the ground on this one, but I guess a lot of people don't. It's pretty simple, a lot of people are tired of corporate tomfoolery involving mistrust or spying. The majority of people are dissatisfied with how their government mistreats them or mishandles their taxes, etc. So when corporations start "blending in" with the game, people are usually going to throw up their arms in frustration by default.

You're basically throwing money at these people, and in return, you're graced with a tremendous amount of mistrust and, quite literally, you are spied on.

If you're just looking at all of this with a narrow-view, then you're doing it wrong.

It's not paranoia anymore if a company says, "You give us money, and then we are going to spy on you." However, Nintendo is obviously farming select biometric data for alien abductions, I know this because the people from Mars told me so.

You answered half of my question, I should have highlighted my main question even more. How is what the 3DS doing any different than what our current computers have done for years? What stops microsoft from selling your personal information...oh yeah, laws. So i'm pretty damn sure that the 3DS follows the same laws that microsoft had to follow for years. Again, if your paranoid about what the 3DS is doing you should not even be on the internet right now.

Yeah cause the internet is going to brick my PC and count my steps. Anyway, gotta go pick DA2 from Gamestop. Hope BioWare has the game unlocked at midnight (about 10 mins from now).

Yes, yes it will! The internet has already been reported more times than can be counted bricking thousands of computers. Hackers, viruses, worms, all this stuff will not only brick a piece of hardware that price ranges from $500-up but can also take your personal information. This is FAR more damaging to your personal life than what the 3DS could EVER do. Thus if your not on the net, you don't have to worry about such a thing, EVER. No fear of a wifi/wireless attack of any kind.
My own computer has suffered pretty damn serious virus attacks and I know it is my own risk of going online. The 3DS is nothing compared to the very risk i'm putting myself in just responding to you now.

You know, I think that the significant thing here is that you are comparing the actions of Nintendo to those of a virus.

Captcha: Finally, hermene Who the fuck is Hermene, and why were we waiting for him/her?

 

[Negatempest]

Spoiler

Less arguing and more information on a detailed account on why this is bad. If not, than your angry because you cannot play an illegal copy of a game.

No.

Why is everyone that "fully supports" this, either says something like.. "If you're not doing anything wrong.." or "You must be a criminal if you disagree"..

Most people have their ear to the ground on this one, but I guess a lot of people don't. It's pretty simple, a lot of people are tired of corporate tomfoolery involving mistrust or spying. The majority of people are dissatisfied with how their government mistreats them or mishandles their taxes, etc. So when corporations start "blending in" with the game, people are usually going to throw up their arms in frustration by default.

You're basically throwing money at these people, and in return, you're graced with a tremendous amount of mistrust and, quite literally, you are spied on.

If you're just looking at all of this with a narrow-view, then you're doing it wrong.

It's not paranoia anymore if a company says, "You give us money, and then we are going to spy on you." However, Nintendo is obviously farming select biometric data for alien abductions, I know this because the people from Mars told me so.

You answered half of my question, I should have highlighted my main question even more. How is what the 3DS doing any different than what our current computers have done for years? What stops microsoft from selling your personal information...oh yeah, laws. So i'm pretty damn sure that the 3DS follows the same laws that microsoft had to follow for years. Again, if your paranoid about what the 3DS is doing you should not even be on the internet right now.

Yeah cause the internet is going to brick my PC and count my steps. Anyway, gotta go pick DA2 from Gamestop. Hope BioWare has the game unlocked at midnight (about 10 mins from now).

Yes, yes it will! The internet has already been reported more times than can be counted bricking thousands of computers. Hackers, viruses, worms, all this stuff will not only brick a piece of hardware that price ranges from $500-up but can also take your personal information. This is FAR more damaging to your personal life than what the 3DS could EVER do. Thus if your not on the net, you don't have to worry about such a thing, EVER. No fear of a wifi/wireless attack of any kind.
My own computer has suffered pretty damn serious virus attacks and I know it is my own risk of going online. The 3DS is nothing compared to the very risk i'm putting myself in just responding to you now.

You know, I think that the significant thing here is that you are comparing the actions of Nintendo to those of a virus.

Captcha: Finally, hermene Who the fuck is Hermene, and why were we waiting for him/her?

Yes, heaven forbid that Nintendo acts more noble than some prick with free time. Microsoft and a computer. Nintendo and a 3DS, the difference? The computer has more information on you than the 3DS EVER will.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Not really. If you can't play it because it won't function, it is broken. That Nintendo can fix it doesn't mean it wasn't broken.

Fine.

However, they WARNED you that they'd "break" (disable) it if you break the law with it. I can back that.

If Ford warns you that they will remotely break or disable your car if you go over the speed limit, it would still be wrong (and illegal I imagine) if they actually did it. They can say whatever they want to the press, they can type whatever they want in the EULA but when they actually start bricking 3DS's they will be in the wrong and likely sued.

For speeding, yes.

For containing illegal property, I imagine they could get the law on their side for that.

So can Nintendo.

I don't think so, corporations cannot take the law into their own hands.

I still can't muster up sympathy for the bricked, because THEY are just as guilty of lawbreaking as Nintendo might be.

Because using an action replay or installing homebrew software is clearly breaking the law. I have a homebrew enabled Wii, which I use to space shift media files from the computer in the livingroom to the TV in my bedroom, and also use to watch Shoutcast TV on. I do not use it to pirate videogames. Does this make me a criminal? Because that's almost certainly in the list of things that will get Nintendo to brick your 3DS.

OT: Nintendo has absolutely lost a sale with this one. I was really excited about the 3DS, but I'll be getting an iPod touch or an NGP instead now, unless they eventually release a model that doesn't pull this crap. These game companies are really pissing me off with all the crap they do to their customers.

 

[Worgen]

I have been reading about this, I don't think they can legally brick your property. I think this will be along the same lines as with the Wii. An update can brick your Wii if you have homebrew on it but you have to choose to update.

Now, if the 3DS updates itself without asking permission, I think the lawsuits will start flying.

Gamers really should stop sending the message that "anything goes" where fighting piracy is concerned. Nintendo might be under the illusion that gamers will support nonsense like this.

I swear, this industry is shooting itself in the foot. Why do game companies put fighting pirates above the legitimate, paying customer?

microsoft has already been doing it with moded 360s and I know sony will try and do it also

 

[lacktheknack]

Not really. If you can't play it because it won't function, it is broken. That Nintendo can fix it doesn't mean it wasn't broken.

Fine.

However, they WARNED you that they'd "break" (disable) it if you break the law with it. I can back that.

If Ford warns you that they will remotely break or disable your car if you go over the speed limit, it would still be wrong (and illegal I imagine) if they actually did it. They can say whatever they want to the press, they can type whatever they want in the EULA but when they actually start bricking 3DS's they will be in the wrong and likely sued.

For speeding, yes.

For containing illegal property, I imagine they could get the law on their side for that.

So can Nintendo.

I don't think so, corporations cannot take the law into their own hands.

I still can't muster up sympathy for the bricked, because THEY are just as guilty of lawbreaking as Nintendo might be.

Because using an action replay or installing homebrew software is clearly breaking the law. I have a homebrew enabled Wii, which I use to space shift media files from the computer in the livingroom to the TV in my bedroom, and also use to watch Shoutcast TV on. I do not use it to pirate videogames. Does this make me a criminal? Because that's almost certainly in the list of things that will get Nintendo to brick your 3DS.

OT: Nintendo has absolutely lost a sale with this one. I was really excited about the 3DS, but I'll be getting an iPod touch or an NGP instead now, unless they eventually release a model that doesn't pull this crap. These game companies are really pissing me off with all the crap they do to their customers.

Sorry man, you've been drowned in scum.

Pirates far outweigh homebrewers. Companies will stop taking such defensive measures when homebrewers become more relevant than pirates. Which they never will.

It's still a step forward, as this type of anti-piracy measure doesn't really affect a normal "electric smiles machine" customer... which comprises at least 85% of the market.

 

[Scars Unseen]

Spoiler

Less arguing and more information on a detailed account on why this is bad. If not, than your angry because you cannot play an illegal copy of a game.

No.

Why is everyone that "fully supports" this, either says something like.. "If you're not doing anything wrong.." or "You must be a criminal if you disagree"..

Most people have their ear to the ground on this one, but I guess a lot of people don't. It's pretty simple, a lot of people are tired of corporate tomfoolery involving mistrust or spying. The majority of people are dissatisfied with how their government mistreats them or mishandles their taxes, etc. So when corporations start "blending in" with the game, people are usually going to throw up their arms in frustration by default.

You're basically throwing money at these people, and in return, you're graced with a tremendous amount of mistrust and, quite literally, you are spied on.

If you're just looking at all of this with a narrow-view, then you're doing it wrong.

It's not paranoia anymore if a company says, "You give us money, and then we are going to spy on you." However, Nintendo is obviously farming select biometric data for alien abductions, I know this because the people from Mars told me so.

You answered half of my question, I should have highlighted my main question even more. How is what the 3DS doing any different than what our current computers have done for years? What stops microsoft from selling your personal information...oh yeah, laws. So i'm pretty damn sure that the 3DS follows the same laws that microsoft had to follow for years. Again, if your paranoid about what the 3DS is doing you should not even be on the internet right now.

Yeah cause the internet is going to brick my PC and count my steps. Anyway, gotta go pick DA2 from Gamestop. Hope BioWare has the game unlocked at midnight (about 10 mins from now).

Yes, yes it will! The internet has already been reported more times than can be counted bricking thousands of computers. Hackers, viruses, worms, all this stuff will not only brick a piece of hardware that price ranges from $500-up but can also take your personal information. This is FAR more damaging to your personal life than what the 3DS could EVER do. Thus if your not on the net, you don't have to worry about such a thing, EVER. No fear of a wifi/wireless attack of any kind.
My own computer has suffered pretty damn serious virus attacks and I know it is my own risk of going online. The 3DS is nothing compared to the very risk i'm putting myself in just responding to you now.

You know, I think that the significant thing here is that you are comparing the actions of Nintendo to those of a virus.

Captcha: Finally, hermene Who the fuck is Hermene, and why were we waiting for him/her?

Yes, heaven forbid that Nintendo acts more noble than some prick with free time. Microsoft and a computer. Nintendo and a 3DS, the difference? The computer has more information on you than the 3DS EVER will.

Microsoft doesn't force me to stay online when my PC is turned on. They also don't prevent me from installing unapproved third party software. While Microsoft is an easy target to pick on in many cases, It's kind of laughable to compare what we're hearing about the 3DS to Windows.

 

[Plurralbles]

i don't understand how electronic companies can legitimately argue that their product is different from anyone elses'. Anyone else couldn't remotely break someone's shit.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Not really. If you can't play it because it won't function, it is broken. That Nintendo can fix it doesn't mean it wasn't broken.

Fine.

However, they WARNED you that they'd "break" (disable) it if you break the law with it. I can back that.

If Ford warns you that they will remotely break or disable your car if you go over the speed limit, it would still be wrong (and illegal I imagine) if they actually did it. They can say whatever they want to the press, they can type whatever they want in the EULA but when they actually start bricking 3DS's they will be in the wrong and likely sued.

For speeding, yes.

For containing illegal property, I imagine they could get the law on their side for that.

So can Nintendo.

I don't think so, corporations cannot take the law into their own hands.

I still can't muster up sympathy for the bricked, because THEY are just as guilty of lawbreaking as Nintendo might be.

Because using an action replay or installing homebrew software is clearly breaking the law. I have a homebrew enabled Wii, which I use to space shift media files from the computer in the livingroom to the TV in my bedroom, and also use to watch Shoutcast TV on. I do not use it to pirate videogames. Does this make me a criminal? Because that's almost certainly in the list of things that will get Nintendo to brick your 3DS.

OT: Nintendo has absolutely lost a sale with this one. I was really excited about the 3DS, but I'll be getting an iPod touch or an NGP instead now, unless they eventually release a model that doesn't pull this crap. These game companies are really pissing me off with all the crap they do to their customers.

Sorry man, you've been drowned in scum.

Pirates far outweigh homebrewers. Companies will stop taking such defensive measures when homebrewers become more relevant than pirates. Which they never will.

It's still a step forward, as this type of anti-piracy measure doesn't really affect a normal "electric smiles machine" customer... which comprises at least 85% of the market.

If at least 85% of the market is made up of people who use the system for its intended purpose, why even bother to go after that 15% that doesn't? Especially when a small portion of that 15% is doing something legal, the rest are going to find a way around the inexcusable DRM, and the DRM in question is breaking the law on its own? Because to paraphrase Alan Grant, pirates will find a way.

 

[subtlefuge]

In order for the firmware approach to be fair to customers, they need to actually add interesting features and content with each update. If they just try to block piracy, then they're only pissing on their fanbase.

 

[lacktheknack]

Not really. If you can't play it because it won't function, it is broken. That Nintendo can fix it doesn't mean it wasn't broken.

Fine.

However, they WARNED you that they'd "break" (disable) it if you break the law with it. I can back that.

If Ford warns you that they will remotely break or disable your car if you go over the speed limit, it would still be wrong (and illegal I imagine) if they actually did it. They can say whatever they want to the press, they can type whatever they want in the EULA but when they actually start bricking 3DS's they will be in the wrong and likely sued.

For speeding, yes.

For containing illegal property, I imagine they could get the law on their side for that.

So can Nintendo.

I don't think so, corporations cannot take the law into their own hands.

I still can't muster up sympathy for the bricked, because THEY are just as guilty of lawbreaking as Nintendo might be.

Because using an action replay or installing homebrew software is clearly breaking the law. I have a homebrew enabled Wii, which I use to space shift media files from the computer in the livingroom to the TV in my bedroom, and also use to watch Shoutcast TV on. I do not use it to pirate videogames. Does this make me a criminal? Because that's almost certainly in the list of things that will get Nintendo to brick your 3DS.

OT: Nintendo has absolutely lost a sale with this one. I was really excited about the 3DS, but I'll be getting an iPod touch or an NGP instead now, unless they eventually release a model that doesn't pull this crap. These game companies are really pissing me off with all the crap they do to their customers.

Sorry man, you've been drowned in scum.

Pirates far outweigh homebrewers. Companies will stop taking such defensive measures when homebrewers become more relevant than pirates. Which they never will.

It's still a step forward, as this type of anti-piracy measure doesn't really affect a normal "electric smiles machine" customer... which comprises at least 85% of the market.

If at least 85% of the market is made up of people who use the system for its intended purpose, why even bother to go after that 15% that doesn't? Especially when a small portion of that 15% is doing something legal, the rest are going to find a way around the inexcusable DRM, and the DRM in question is breaking the law on its own? Because to paraphrase Alan Grant, pirates will find a way.

Step One: Introduce DRM, force contract-signing to acquire 3DS to avoid lawsuits.
Step Two: Warn public of what DRM entails, affects 15% of market.
Step Three: Alienate ~5% of the market.
Step Four: Delay pirates by weeks or months (handhelds are notoriously difficult to crack as far as I can tell), force legal purchases from remaining 10% of pirating market until crack occurs.
Step Five: Profit.

Step five wasn't a joke either, that's why they keep doing this stuff. They haven't shot themselves in the foot, they've simply accepted they can't win 100% of the time.

 

[lacktheknack]

In order for the firmware approach to be fair to customers, they need to actually add interesting features and content with each update. If they just try to block piracy, then they're only pissing on their fanbase.

Even the carrot approach is getting old, this kind of DRM is not wanted. What are they gonna give anyway?

The dollar signs they're rolling in say otherwise. They say that consumers don't really care about the DRM.