5 cops shot 1 killed, 2 civilians shot

[Saelune]

But the whole 'pulling the trigger on an innocent man' is kinda the issue here to begin with.

Hindsight's 20/20.

Trained people with guns whos hands we put our lives in should be very concerned with doing it right the first time. And hindsight? How many people have police and SWAT killed that should have gotten them to shape up by now?

Now you're really just scrounging for excuses to defend murderers.

It's true, there have been many shootings this year where, at least from the view of civilians, better methods could have been used. This is not one of those.

They got pranked by some random CoD player. That is not acceptable for ANY government agency or organization.

 

[Captain Marvelous_v1legacy]

But the whole 'pulling the trigger on an innocent man' is kinda the issue here to begin with.

Hindsight's 20/20.

Trained people with guns whos hands we put our lives in should be very concerned with doing it right the first time. And hindsight? How many people have police and SWAT killed that should have gotten them to shape up by now?

Now you're really just scrounging for excuses to defend murderers.

It's true, there have been many shootings this year where, at least from the view of civilians, better methods could have been used. This is not one of those.

They got pranked by some random CoD player. That is not acceptable for ANY government agency or organization.

So, what, they should have used that good old fashioned clairvoyance to know that it was a prank? Or should they have ignored the potential murder/hostage/arson situation?

 

[Leg End]

Trained people with guns whos hands we put our lives in should be very concerned with doing it right the first time.

Who says they aren't?

How many people have police and SWAT killed that should have gotten them to shape up by now?

considering the stats, it's more an overuse of force and breaching houses like Hitler's bunker. I'm reminded of a incident in Indiana where police raided a dude's house and he woke up suddenly to armed men entering his home. He shot and killed a cop or two but it was found justified because he was rightfully under the assumption his life was in danger from random armed men.

Now you're really just scrounging for excuses to defend murderers.

Murderer is a very strong word.

 

[Saelune]

But the whole 'pulling the trigger on an innocent man' is kinda the issue here to begin with.

Hindsight's 20/20.

Trained people with guns whos hands we put our lives in should be very concerned with doing it right the first time. And hindsight? How many people have police and SWAT killed that should have gotten them to shape up by now?

Now you're really just scrounging for excuses to defend murderers.

It's true, there have been many shootings this year where, at least from the view of civilians, better methods could have been used. This is not one of those.

They got pranked by some random CoD player. That is not acceptable for ANY government agency or organization.

So, what, they should have used that good old fashioned clairvoyance to know that it was a prank? Or should they have ignored the potential murder/hostage/arson situation?

I didnt realize that 2017 was so technologically stunted, especially for technologically advanced military groups.

 

[Leg End]

I didnt realize that 2017 was so technologically stunted, especially for technologically advanced military groups.

SWAT is not the Military. No amount of military technology can read minds.

 

[Captain Marvelous_v1legacy]

But the whole 'pulling the trigger on an innocent man' is kinda the issue here to begin with.

Hindsight's 20/20.

Trained people with guns whos hands we put our lives in should be very concerned with doing it right the first time. And hindsight? How many people have police and SWAT killed that should have gotten them to shape up by now?

Now you're really just scrounging for excuses to defend murderers.

It's true, there have been many shootings this year where, at least from the view of civilians, better methods could have been used. This is not one of those.

They got pranked by some random CoD player. That is not acceptable for ANY government agency or organization.

So, what, they should have used that good old fashioned clairvoyance to know that it was a prank? Or should they have ignored the potential murder/hostage/arson situation?

I didnt realize that 2017 was so technologically stunted, especially for technologically advanced military groups.

You mean tracing the call? Swatters actually intentionally make their calls difficult to trace. Doing simple things like using a Tor browser can throw local police departments off. It's incredibly easy to prevent being traced.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

It seems odd that so much onus is put on civilian's response to police, instead of the other way around. I walk out of my home to see a bunch of people pointing a gun at me I'm probably going to freak out, and probably not be thinking too rationally. After the initial shock I'll probably be more likely to comply, but what about someone who's not in a sound state of mind? Someone coming home after a night of drinking like that man killed in the hallway of his apartment a short while ago, or someone who's actually mentally disabled? There's a number of stories of police officers killing mentally handicapped people for being non-compliant.

Not to mention the absolute callousness you see them treating someone's death with. In this story the family was dragged out over their father/husband/son's body, before there was any call for medical attention. I don't know how the rest of the family avoids getting killed in these situations, because if I saw someone come in and shoot one of my family members my first thought would't be to be compliant and helpful to this person.

Police in the US seem crazy to me, living in Canada. It's absurd how it seems that a fake call to the police is a cheap and somewhat unreliable alternative to a hitman. Worst case scenario, you still probably terrorize your target

 

[Saelune]

It seems odd that so much onus is put on civilian's response to police, instead of the other way around. I walk out of my home to see a bunch of people pointing a gun at me I'm probably going to freak out, and probably not be thinking too rationally. After the initial shock I'll probably be more likely to comply, but what about someone who's not in a sound state of mind? Someone coming home after a night of drinking like that man killed in the hallway of his apartment a short while ago, or someone who's actually mentally disabled? There's a number of stories of police officers killing mentally handicapped people for being non-compliant.

Not to mention the absolute callousness you see them treating someone's death with. In this story the family was dragged out over their father/husband/son's body, before there was any call for medical attention. I don't know how the rest of the family avoids getting killed in these situations, because if I saw someone come in and shoot one of my family members my first thought would't be to be compliant and helpful to this person.

Police in the US seem crazy to me, living in Canada. It's absurd how it seems that a fake call to the police is a cheap and somewhat unreliable alternative to a hitman. Worst case scenario, you still probably terrorize your target

Clearly the guy with the gun and military training needs coddling, not the innocent untrained civilians having heavily armed and armored people pointing guns at them.

And hell everyone says how "tense and scary" it is to be a cop or SWAT, but I mean, isnt having a cop or SWAT officer yell at you with guns at you WAY SCARIER!?

 

[Saelune]

But the whole 'pulling the trigger on an innocent man' is kinda the issue here to begin with.

Hindsight's 20/20.

Trained people with guns whos hands we put our lives in should be very concerned with doing it right the first time. And hindsight? How many people have police and SWAT killed that should have gotten them to shape up by now?

Now you're really just scrounging for excuses to defend murderers.

It's true, there have been many shootings this year where, at least from the view of civilians, better methods could have been used. This is not one of those.

They got pranked by some random CoD player. That is not acceptable for ANY government agency or organization.

So, what, they should have used that good old fashioned clairvoyance to know that it was a prank? Or should they have ignored the potential murder/hostage/arson situation?

I didnt realize that 2017 was so technologically stunted, especially for technologically advanced military groups.

You mean tracing the call? Swatters actually intentionally make their calls difficult to trace. Doing simple things like using a Tor browser can throw local police departments off. It's incredibly easy to prevent being traced.

Then they suck at their jobs.

 

[Captain Marvelous_v1legacy]

But the whole 'pulling the trigger on an innocent man' is kinda the issue here to begin with.

Hindsight's 20/20.

Trained people with guns whos hands we put our lives in should be very concerned with doing it right the first time. And hindsight? How many people have police and SWAT killed that should have gotten them to shape up by now?

Now you're really just scrounging for excuses to defend murderers.

It's true, there have been many shootings this year where, at least from the view of civilians, better methods could have been used. This is not one of those.

They got pranked by some random CoD player. That is not acceptable for ANY government agency or organization.

So, what, they should have used that good old fashioned clairvoyance to know that it was a prank? Or should they have ignored the potential murder/hostage/arson situation?

I didnt realize that 2017 was so technologically stunted, especially for technologically advanced military groups.

You mean tracing the call? Swatters actually intentionally make their calls difficult to trace. Doing simple things like using a Tor browser can throw local police departments off. It's incredibly easy to prevent being traced.

Then they suck at their jobs.

Or tracing calls isn't as simple as you assume.

 

[Saelune]

But the whole 'pulling the trigger on an innocent man' is kinda the issue here to begin with.

Hindsight's 20/20.

Trained people with guns whos hands we put our lives in should be very concerned with doing it right the first time. And hindsight? How many people have police and SWAT killed that should have gotten them to shape up by now?

Now you're really just scrounging for excuses to defend murderers.

It's true, there have been many shootings this year where, at least from the view of civilians, better methods could have been used. This is not one of those.

They got pranked by some random CoD player. That is not acceptable for ANY government agency or organization.

So, what, they should have used that good old fashioned clairvoyance to know that it was a prank? Or should they have ignored the potential murder/hostage/arson situation?

I didnt realize that 2017 was so technologically stunted, especially for technologically advanced military groups.

You mean tracing the call? Swatters actually intentionally make their calls difficult to trace. Doing simple things like using a Tor browser can throw local police departments off. It's incredibly easy to prevent being traced.

Then they suck at their jobs.

Or tracing calls isn't as simple as you assume.

But is determining if a house is full of dangerous people versus just regular people doing nothing wrong so hard?

 

[Arnoxthe1]

Then they suck at their jobs.

OK. Now I think you're legit trollin'. I was doubtful at first, but this sentence plus your Mindflayer badge kind of confirms it.

I will not fall victim to your anger-speech, you fluffy menace!

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

Or tracing calls isn't as simple as you assume.

I'm actually kind of curious about this. I'm quoting you, but I realize you might not know any better than I do. What kind of information would the police get out of tracing a spoofed call (As was probably done in this situation)? I know that the hollywood trope of tracing calls is inaccurate, it can be done instantaneously, but I don't know what sort of accuracy you get out of it. I also don't know what measures someone can take to hide their phone's location.

While I'm sure that you could hide it in such a way that you couldn't tell exactly where the real caller was coming from, but could you hide it in such a way that it appears to be coming where it plausibly should be? If not, that should be a bit of a red herring in a situation like this. Not enough that you don't take action, but enough that you don't go in guns blazing and try to assess whether there's real danger or not first.

 

[Leg End]

But is determining if a house is full of dangerous people versus just regular people doing nothing wrong so hard?

It really can be, especially when going up to just knock and ask can result in someone eating buckshot through the door.

 

[Saelune]

Then they suck at their jobs.

OK. Now I think you're legit trollin'. I was doubtful at first, but this sentence plus your Mindflayer badge kind of confirms it.

I will not fall victim to your anger-speech, you fluffy menace!

Thats one way to dismiss my genuine concern for the abuse of power and inability to successfully deal with dangerous situations by people with guns and power.

I am not trolling. I am pissed that you find it more bothersome that I am mad that innocent people are suffering than the problems that caused it.

 

[Captain Marvelous_v1legacy]

Or tracing calls isn't as simple as you assume.

I'm actually kind of curious about this. I'm quoting you, but I realize you might not know any better than I do. What kind of information would the police get out of tracing a spoofed call (As was probably done in this situation)? I know that the hollywood trope of tracing calls is inaccurate, it can be done instantaneously, but I don't know what sort of accuracy you get out of it. I also don't know what measures someone can take to hide their phone's location.

While I'm sure that you could hide it in such a way that you couldn't tell exactly where the real caller was coming from, but could you hide it in such a way that it appears to be coming where it plausibly should be? If not, that should be a bit of a red herring in a situation like this. Not enough that you don't take action, but enough that you don't go in guns blazing and try to assess whether there's real danger or not first.

I have no idea. There is an article on The Guardian detailing an investigation that took nearly a year to find a swatter https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/15/swatting-law-teens-anonymous-prank-call-police

But the whole 'pulling the trigger on an innocent man' is kinda the issue here to begin with.

Hindsight's 20/20.

Trained people with guns whos hands we put our lives in should be very concerned with doing it right the first time. And hindsight? How many people have police and SWAT killed that should have gotten them to shape up by now?

Now you're really just scrounging for excuses to defend murderers.

It's true, there have been many shootings this year where, at least from the view of civilians, better methods could have been used. This is not one of those.

They got pranked by some random CoD player. That is not acceptable for ANY government agency or organization.

So, what, they should have used that good old fashioned clairvoyance to know that it was a prank? Or should they have ignored the potential murder/hostage/arson situation?

I didnt realize that 2017 was so technologically stunted, especially for technologically advanced military groups.

You mean tracing the call? Swatters actually intentionally make their calls difficult to trace. Doing simple things like using a Tor browser can throw local police departments off. It's incredibly easy to prevent being traced.

Then they suck at their jobs.

Or tracing calls isn't as simple as you assume.

But is determining if a house is full of dangerous people versus just regular people doing nothing wrong so hard?

For a house with closed windows and drawn shades. Yes. Especially since you don't want officers carelessly approaching a hostage situation.

Then they suck at their jobs.

OK. Now I think you're legit trollin'. I was doubtful at first, but this sentence plus your Mindflayer badge kind of confirms it.

I will not fall victim to your anger-speech, you fluffy menace!

Thats one way to dismiss my genuine concern for the abuse of power and inability to successfully deal with dangerous situations by people with guns and power.

Except this was none of that.

 

[Saelune]

Or tracing calls isn't as simple as you assume.

I'm actually kind of curious about this. I'm quoting you, but I realize you might not know any better than I do. What kind of information would the police get out of tracing a spoofed call (As was probably done in this situation)? I know that the hollywood trope of tracing calls is inaccurate, it can be done instantaneously, but I don't know what sort of accuracy you get out of it. I also don't know what measures someone can take to hide their phone's location.

While I'm sure that you could hide it in such a way that you couldn't tell exactly where the real caller was coming from, but could you hide it in such a way that it appears to be coming where it plausibly should be? If not, that should be a bit of a red herring in a situation like this. Not enough that you don't take action, but enough that you don't go in guns blazing and try to assess whether there's real danger or not first.

I have no idea. There is an article on The Guardian detailing an investigation that took nearly a year to find a swatter https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/15/swatting-law-teens-anonymous-prank-call-police

But the whole 'pulling the trigger on an innocent man' is kinda the issue here to begin with.

Hindsight's 20/20.

Trained people with guns whos hands we put our lives in should be very concerned with doing it right the first time. And hindsight? How many people have police and SWAT killed that should have gotten them to shape up by now?

Now you're really just scrounging for excuses to defend murderers.

It's true, there have been many shootings this year where, at least from the view of civilians, better methods could have been used. This is not one of those.

They got pranked by some random CoD player. That is not acceptable for ANY government agency or organization.

So, what, they should have used that good old fashioned clairvoyance to know that it was a prank? Or should they have ignored the potential murder/hostage/arson situation?

I didnt realize that 2017 was so technologically stunted, especially for technologically advanced military groups.

You mean tracing the call? Swatters actually intentionally make their calls difficult to trace. Doing simple things like using a Tor browser can throw local police departments off. It's incredibly easy to prevent being traced.

Then they suck at their jobs.

Or tracing calls isn't as simple as you assume.

But is determining if a house is full of dangerous people versus just regular people doing nothing wrong so hard?

For a house with closed windows and drawn shades. Yes. Especially since you don't want officers carelessly approaching a hostage situation.

Then they suck at their jobs.

OK. Now I think you're legit trollin'. I was doubtful at first, but this sentence plus your Mindflayer badge kind of confirms it.

I will not fall victim to your anger-speech, you fluffy menace!

Thats one way to dismiss my genuine concern for the abuse of power and inability to successfully deal with dangerous situations by people with guns and power.

Except this was none of that.

Was the house so 'masterfully' protected against even basic assessment?

And yes, there was that. The SWAT team acted so poorly as to get a completely innocent man killed.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

Thats one way to dismiss my genuine concern for the abuse of power and inability to successfully deal with dangerous situations by people with guns and power.

I am not trolling. I am pissed that you find it more bothersome that I am mad that innocent people are suffering than the problems that caused it.

Well, one thing is certain. You're pretty unyielding in your beliefs here, so there isn't much else I can say. :\

 

[Leg End]

Was the house so 'masterfully' protected against even basic assessment?

What to you is 'basic assessment'?

 

[Captain Marvelous_v1legacy]

Or tracing calls isn't as simple as you assume.

I'm actually kind of curious about this. I'm quoting you, but I realize you might not know any better than I do. What kind of information would the police get out of tracing a spoofed call (As was probably done in this situation)? I know that the hollywood trope of tracing calls is inaccurate, it can be done instantaneously, but I don't know what sort of accuracy you get out of it. I also don't know what measures someone can take to hide their phone's location.

While I'm sure that you could hide it in such a way that you couldn't tell exactly where the real caller was coming from, but could you hide it in such a way that it appears to be coming where it plausibly should be? If not, that should be a bit of a red herring in a situation like this. Not enough that you don't take action, but enough that you don't go in guns blazing and try to assess whether there's real danger or not first.

I have no idea. There is an article on The Guardian detailing an investigation that took nearly a year to find a swatter https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/15/swatting-law-teens-anonymous-prank-call-police

But the whole 'pulling the trigger on an innocent man' is kinda the issue here to begin with.

Hindsight's 20/20.

Trained people with guns whos hands we put our lives in should be very concerned with doing it right the first time. And hindsight? How many people have police and SWAT killed that should have gotten them to shape up by now?

Now you're really just scrounging for excuses to defend murderers.

It's true, there have been many shootings this year where, at least from the view of civilians, better methods could have been used. This is not one of those.

They got pranked by some random CoD player. That is not acceptable for ANY government agency or organization.

So, what, they should have used that good old fashioned clairvoyance to know that it was a prank? Or should they have ignored the potential murder/hostage/arson situation?

I didnt realize that 2017 was so technologically stunted, especially for technologically advanced military groups.

You mean tracing the call? Swatters actually intentionally make their calls difficult to trace. Doing simple things like using a Tor browser can throw local police departments off. It's incredibly easy to prevent being traced.

Then they suck at their jobs.

Or tracing calls isn't as simple as you assume.

But is determining if a house is full of dangerous people versus just regular people doing nothing wrong so hard?

For a house with closed windows and drawn shades. Yes. Especially since you don't want officers carelessly approaching a hostage situation.

Then they suck at their jobs.

OK. Now I think you're legit trollin'. I was doubtful at first, but this sentence plus your Mindflayer badge kind of confirms it.

I will not fall victim to your anger-speech, you fluffy menace!

Thats one way to dismiss my genuine concern for the abuse of power and inability to successfully deal with dangerous situations by people with guns and power.

Except this was none of that.

Was the house so 'masterfully' protected against even basic assessment?

And yes, there was that. The SWAT team acted so poorly as to get a completely innocent man killed.

Basic assessment like..? Knocking on the door? Peaking through the windows? Getting the hostages killed? ...X-ray vision? I don't think you've managed to prove that anything they did leading up to the shooting was incompetent. We should probably just end this here. This is going no where fast and neither of us are going to budge. It isn't really worth it to continue this. I will say, though, that I do think that officers that abuse their power should be put on trial. That the blue wall of silence shouldn't be a thing. That officers who do try to diffuse a situation without lethal force shouldn't be fired for it. I just can't treat these like simple black and white situations.

Happy New Year. I'm off to bed.