9/11 conspiracies. Really, they still exist?

[Phyroxis]

Just because there are some nutjobs out there doesn't mean everyone with an argument against the popular opinion is crazy.

No, but in this particular conspiracy, it's the nutjobs who are going against popular opinion.

There are plenty of top-notch scientists who have made testimonials on either side of the discussion. Just because the government tells you it was terrorists doesn't mean you should blindly follow them. They may be right, but they can be right with evidence as opposed to just on their word.

No. Seriously, there aren't. This isn't global warming; there's actually unanimous opinion among top-notch scientists on what caused this.

Additionally.. Do you really want to take the government's word on it? Especially when they are now, and actually have, passed rights-infringing legislation like the Patriot act?

You're right! Why should we trust the government when it says something? Buncha pricks.

Luckily, I'll just listen to the thousands of non-governmental experts on the subject who say the conspiracy is a load of rubbish.

So, everyone is in agreement? Have you done any research into the studies of 9/11? There are plenty of scientists calling foul play.

Show me. Please. And no botanists.

While I am still undecided overall (any my opinion is largely irrelevant to begin with), I certainly see evidence being thrown around by both sides. By no means does this seem to be a unanimous "its over, terrorists did it" situation.

I think the main thing that frightens me the most is the vehement cries of "don't look anymore! Obviously it was terrorists."

Really? We're going to just stop investigating? Analyzing evidence? For a society built on the scientific method and free speech; we're that quick to shut down legitimate investigation?

No. We're saying the legitimate investigation has happened many times over, and there's no point in continuing to rehash it, because the only people who haven't been convinced are the people who never will be.

There's some pretty compelling stuff released by Physicist Steven Jones that has me a bit intrigued. And yet some people now slams him as a conspiracy theorist simply because he opposes the common view, despite the fact he makes no wild claims and continues to operate step-by-step logically. In fact, I'm pretty sure he doesn't make any claims either way, just presents evidence.

Link, out of curiosity?

As I said, why are we so quick to call "conspiracy theorist!" and dismiss everyone, particularly when there should be legitimate inquiry? Especially when our rights are at stake? If I'm going to start giving up my freedoms for perceived security, I want to know theres a true threat that isn't my own government.

Hell, let the terrorists come. I don't need the government tapping phone lines or monitoring anything. If the terrorists come, fine, we're still bigger! I'm not working or going to school near any high-priority targets, nor am I doing anything illegal, why should I give up my freedom because the government is messing around where it shouldn't be?

Isn't paranoia fun?

This is getting wall-y and ranty, so I'll wrap it up. I'm just irritated. I do not like the idea of Big Brother coming to fruition, justified on a sketchy internal-inquiry with no objective review.

...yeah, I've definitely been wasting my time and energy talking.

Lol.. isnt everything on internet forums just for the purpose of wasting time and energy?

As for Jone's article, direct PDF link: http://wtc7.net/articles/WhyIndeed09.pdf
Its been a while since I've read it... I think this is a newer version than the one I read.


Right.. and paranoia is an unfounded or exaggerated distrust.. I'm pretty sure that fear of a controlling Big Brother society isn't unfounded, nor exaggerated. I am quite happy dictating, within reason, where my life goes.

 

[Crystalgate]

1. Not a clean cut? Have you ever seen a line? What's more, for controlled explosions, they wrap the columns with wire-explosives that cut the column in that way. Gravity does the rest. So, is it a coinsidence that the columns at WTC appear to have that particular cut?

Having seen steel being cut with various tools, that cut is anything but clean. Can you link to a site showing how wire-explosives cut? Also in interest is how a steel column would look like if it was thorn of by force.

2. So your government claimed that that the steel "softened". Right. So why weren't the buildings left half-standing? How do you explain that the buildings free-fell? If the structured have just "softened" there would be definitely something left standing. And don't tell me that the materials from top floors were too much for the lower levels to stand. If the fall was vertical then the columns at the lower levels would be solid enough to endure the pressure.

Did the building fall free-fall? I have seen about fifty-eleven different counts of how long the collapse toke.

Also, if several floor falls, there's no way the rest of the building can hold it up. Try lifting something that requires effort for you, but which you nevertheless can lift. Now try to catch that object after it fallen six foot. You will find that catching a falling object requires much more strength than just holding it up.

The lower levels columns do not only have to hold the collapsing floors up, they have to catch them as well.

3. There were photos of them too! These people saw their faces on the news and read that they were supposedly terrorists, and dead terrorists too! How bout that? And how do you feel that your government made not one, not two but seventeen(!) mistaken claims of that kind?

That's not the what I remember seeing in the news. I first heard about the names. Then I heard about the guys being alive. I did not see their photos before hearing the news of them being alive. Can you provide me with the dates of the events. I would want to know when the names were released, when the photos were released and when the news that they were alive started.

5.Yeah..and Bin Laden's face keeps changing and changing with every tape he sends. And you still think there is one, THE Bin Laden....

If the faces changes, that is no evidence on the government fabricating anything. It could be that Bin Laden himself let people who resembles him do the taping to protect himself. The plausibility of that depends on how much and often his face changes. Can you give me links to the various faces?

6. Wow! So if a skyscraper of this size and importance catches fire it... collapses? And don't tell me that plane fuels burn in a super high temperature. Fuels burn in a temperature of 300 C. Guess what? Even cast iron melts at 1300, imagine steel! Do you still believe that the columns... softened?

If a skyscraper catches a jet fuel induced fire after first suffering structural damage from the crash, it collapses. Or more accurately, if the combination of structural damage and temperature is enough it collapses. A plane with less fuel flying with a lesser velocity would of course be less likely to cause the building to collapse.

As for temperature, I believe it has been covered already. The 300 degrees is not the maximum burning temperature. Also, since it was said the steel softened, not melted, the melting temperature is completely irrelevant.

7. And what's more, tell me just this. What do 9/11 scepticists have to gain by going around, claiming your government feeds you lies? Fame on the internet? Selling a book? Big deal!! Now, what's the profit of your government making everyone believe that there is terrorism, bad middle east people with weapons of mass destruction and so on? Nothing..except feeding the war industry and all this oil in the Middle East... Some billions of billlions of billions of dollars that is...

Fame and money is a big deal. Saying the government has an even better reason to lie isn't much of an argument. What it mean is that we can trust neither. If two dishonest people were making opposite claims, you'd be dumb to trust the one who lies the least. You assume any of them can lie and act thereafter.

 

[hotacidbath]

Even I think it's bullshit and I believe in aliens and bigfoot.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Thank you for that. I don't know how many times i'm going to spam Popular Mechanics on this one. Tell me they are biased or under government control. Tell me they're in on the conspiracy.

[HEADING=1]Popular Mechanics bitches![/HEADING]

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=4

THEY ARE BIASED AND UNDER GOVERNMENT CONTROL!!! MY TIN FOIL HAT SAYS SO!!!

 

[NeutralDrow]

*snip*

Lol.. isnt everything on internet forums just for the purpose of wasting time and energy?

As for Jone's article, direct PDF link: http://wtc7.net/articles/WhyIndeed09.pdf
Its been a while since I've read it... I think this is a newer version than the one I read.

Interesting, but not convincing. The only thing I can't quite puzzle out is the color of the molten metal, or why exactly the metal was molten after weeks. Everything else (the thermite jet, buildings collapsing straight downward, etc.) has at least a plausible alternate explanation. Given the evidence against conspiracy in other aspects of the situation (non-detection of any explosives beforehand, the unlikelihood of keeping such an operation secret, the absolutely insane cost of such a thing, etc.), I'm inclined to go with the "official" explanations.

Right.. and paranoia is an unfounded or exaggerated distrust.. I'm pretty sure that fear of a controlling Big Brother society isn't unfounded, nor exaggerated.

Yes. In fact, it is. I'd go so far as to say it's grotesquely exaggerated.

I am quite happy dictating, within reason, where my life goes.

And nothing is stopping you.

 

[Eternal_24]

Dude, there was nano thermite (explosive materials) found amongst the rubble of the twin towers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Pzg_sVTKUM&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.9-11anniversarylondon.org%2F&feature=player_embedded

 

[Crystalgate]

Dude, there was nano thermite (explosive materials) found amongst the rubble of the twin towers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Pzg_sVTKUM&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.9-11anniversarylondon.org%2F&feature=player_embedded

I googled Niels Harrit and I couldn't find anything about him not 9/11 related. All I could find about his statements was that they were supposedly originally shown on a breakfast television show. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=102718

Not very impressive, but that was all I found.

Also, "according to a newly published scientific article..."

Which article was that claim published in? Could I please view that article?

 

[SendMeNoodz84]

So i was bored and went on youtube watching commentaries for south park, and i listen to the one about the "mystery of the urinal deuce" and down below i see comments from people saying that it was the government that planted bombs in the building and that it wasnt planes that crashed into the buildings. Really? There are still retards out there that dont believe that terrorists were the ones who blew up the two towers? The biggest arguement being "fire cant melt steel". If i remember right i think thats how they made swords back in the dark ages. I dunno, im a bit tired at the moment so i cant remember the melting point of steel, but ya, i dont believe any of these conspiracies about 9/11, what about you ppls?

Have you ever seen the documentry "Loose Change ?" look it up on youtube because it perfectly explains how 9/11 was a inside job with great detail.

Oh and there are some obvious "WTF"'s in 9/11 because of the melting point of the structures metals and the fuel that was said to catch fire did not match up since kerosene ( I think thats the fuels name) burns with a lower tempreture then the metals boiling points.

as well as the obvious one. Buildings only collpase on them selves with controlled demoltion ! seriously if you see that way they fall considering they were hit by a damn plane it makes no sense to why the towers ended up falling in on them selves rather then breaking apart or toppling over.

but true fact is that there is more to 9/11 then what people say and the american goverment perfectly has the potential to do this since they did something similar back in the 50's (or 60's sorry don't know the exact date) ,, where a plan was made to frame cuba for attacking a airline with american citizans in it when really it was a dummy plane that would be flying over cuba and be there were bombs inside and they would be denonated remotely from another area, ofcourse this plan was never executed but it proves what there capable of now and watch that documentry if you want realistic answers.

(And another thing thats for sure they really pissed of the muslims for making them sound like terrorist)

What does a jet engine run on?

JET FUEL.

What can easily melt metal?

JET FUEL.

Why did the tower collapse?

Because the metal was melted. By JET FUEL.
*sigh*

 

[SendMeNoodz84]

Regarding the steel. It didn't melt, it just was heated to the point where the steel beams could bend enough, thus all the weight it supported came crashing down.

there are still the interview's with the firemen were they clearly state that there were "pool's of liquified steel".

makes me wonder if anyone has seen Zeitgeist on this site?

Is it possible they could have mistaken the steel for metal from the plane? Plus the force of a plane that size, ramming those towers going at least 200mph probably knocked some of those steal beams down too.

They're fire fighters.
No offense, but I think that they are definitely more knowledgeable on the subject than you.
Plus, they were actually there.

 

[Cubilone]

That's not the what I remember seeing in the news. I first heard about the names. Then I heard about the guys being alive. I did not see their photos before hearing the news of them being alive. Can you provide me with the dates of the events.

If the faces changes, that is no evidence on the government fabricating anything. It could be that Bin Laden himself let people who resembles him do the taping to protect himself. The plausibility of that depends on how much and often his face changes. Can you give me links to the various faces?

If a skyscraper catches a jet fuel induced fire after first suffering structural damage from the crash, it collapses. Or more accurately, if the combination of structural damage and temperature is enough it collapses. A plane with less fuel flying with a lesser velocity would of course be less likely to cause the building to collapse.

As for temperature, I believe it has been covered already. The 300 degrees is not the maximum burning temperature. Also, since it was said the steel softened, not melted, the melting temperature is completely irrelevant.

Valid counterpoints. My link to your questions is none other than the one I posted above. Zero 9/11 addresses most of these issues (about the surviving terrorists, Bin Laden with different faces etc).

http://zero911movie.com/site/

I am aware this is the third time I have posted this link in this thread. Most of my points are drawn from this film and what I remember of it. For more concrete information regarding your questions (dates, newspaper articles etc) I believe the film's sources should be enough.

 

[Crystalgate]

Valid counterpoints. My link to your questions is none other than the one I posted above. Zero 9/11 addresses most of these issues (about the surviving terrorists, Bin Laden with different faces etc).

http://zero911movie.com/site/

I am aware this is the third time I have posted this link in this thread. Most of my points are drawn from this film and what I remember of it. For more concrete information regarding your questions (dates, newspaper articles etc) I believe the film's sources should be enough.

The problem with the references being "somewhere" in the movie is that I may have to plow trough the whole thing in order to just check a single fact. I have already seen more than 5 hours worth of movies about how 9/11 was an insider job. In this case I can just refer to http://www.911myths.com/ and say that your points are countered "somewhere on that site".

 

[Shaoken]

The simple fact remains that no matter what angle the plane supposedly hit the pentgon, said plane has wings that would have damaged the exterior of the building.

You can argue with me until you're blue in the face, you'll never alter fact........planes have wings.

That's funny, because if you look at photos of the damaged wall, well by golly there's damage extending a fair way from the main hole, and it seems to be localised entirely along the first floor of the Pentagon.

http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/photos/bluehi.html

Third-last photo, the first floor. No matter how much you argue, you can't alter the fact that 136 people saw the plane hit, they found pieces of the plane and that the damage is consistant with a plane impact.

Have a good day in fantasy land good sir.

 

[Ninja_X]

9/11 was the work of terrorists, not the government.

If you honestly believe these half baked conspiracy theories, you are a fucking moron.

 

[Shaoken]

Some facts for us to ponder:

1. The beams sticking out of the rubble featured clean, diagonal cuts.

Wow, that is so completely and utterly damning, it might just prove your...oh wait! It was made after the tower collapse in order to bring the wreckage down! You know, that massive cleaning opperation.

2. The fuel fire was so hot that it managed to melt the steel... Yet somehow the terrorists' papers/passports managed to survive.

Said passports, along with thousands of pieces of paper from the towers survived because they were ejected from the towers faster then the fireball. Notice how the passport wasn't found at ground zero but rather somewhere else.

Also; nowhere in the 9/11 commision report or the NIST teams' finding will you find them refer to melted steel. That's a strawman arguement; you're debunking a claim nobody has made.

3. Some of the terrorists reported in the planes and still featuring dead in the official investigations were later found alive.

That would be the inital suspect list, released soon afterwards. Of course it's not going to be accurate. What these truthers don't tell you, is that these so called "living hijackers" are not on the current list.

Besides, if the government was in on it don't you think they would have already had 19 dead scapegoats? Why, after the evil mastermind levels of planning would they forget such an obvious detail?

4. Building 7 fell freely. A shockwave, tremor or debris CANNOT create such a simultaneous collapse.

Good think it collapsed several hours later then?

Not to mention that, in addition to losing the bottom corner in the WTC collapse, it had raging fires burning for hours.

5. Bin Laden has still not been found. Yet he's been able to send all his tapes and messages for years.

You have any idea how hard it is to find a single man in the mountains? Especially when he's hiding in a country that won't let your troops in? As for the tapes, there are two explanations; one is that he made them years in advance and instructed them to be used to convince others he's still alive. Two is that he makes them and then has them slowly transported to somewhere that won't be traced back to him.

6. The World Trade Center buildings were designed, as most skyscrapers, to be able to withstand an airplane crash. Two direct hits with two free-falls is certainly a mystery.

Maybe you should listen to the designer of the WTC. They were designed to withstand a hit from a much smaller aircraft low on fuel lost in the fog trying to land at a nearby aircraft at low speed. And the thing is, they did survive an airplane crash; did the towers fall over the second they got hit? No, they stayed standing. What made the Twin Towers different from other skyscrappers is that it had a steel frame, whereas other buildings (such as the Empire State) have concrete frames.

 

[Shaoken]

I think the reason why people disbelieve what hit the Pentagon is the CCTV footage that was taken away. And if im correct doesn't it have SAM sites near the building due to it's importance?

Dude, there are TWO airports right next to the pentagon. Why would there be SAM sites? It'd be a great risk to all airliners landing in the area, and there would be no way to be able to identify that a plane was going to crash into the pentagon and have enough time to shoot it down.

The only time the Pentagon had missile defence it was provided by jeeps with anti-air weaponry.

 

[Player 2]

no I haven't seen zeitgeist

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-594683847743189197#

skip to 43:15

watch it Alllllllll the way through.

Watched it, thought it was crap. Dramatic music is no substitute for evidence.

lol thats why you look past the dramatic music at all the interviews with firemen who were there. the interview with people who speak about NORAD. and of course the people who comment on the fact that a whole plane was vapourised on impact (which is very likely) but the fact that they still found paper(?)passports of the passengers who just happened to be the hijackers(not very likely).

as i said before that still doesn't mean its a goverment consipracy its just that normal people usually see things in ether black or white hence "ITS A CONSPIRACY YOU NAZI SHEEPLE" and "QUIT TALKING YOU STUPID HIPPY". were surely there can be middle ground like say the goverment had pre-knowledge of the attack but failed to do anything because they suck (not surprising since thats when bush was still prez) and to cover up their massive failure planted passports to make it look less suspicious.

of course that still doesn't explain "everything" but like i said there is surely a logical "middle ground"

Yeah, I think I'm gonna go with "the government had some prior knowledge but failed to prevent it because they're crap" the conspiracy theory doesn't make sense but crap fits the bush administration perfectly.

 

[Optix334]

You cannot convince me that those towers were that easy to destroy (relatively). Surely they were constructed better then that. Besides if you compare it to a game of Jenga, if the in Jenga the piece is removed that invariably causes that tower to fall, the whole tower doesn't fall, just the part that was above the piece that was removed. Following that logic, if (and that's a big 'if') the planes had caused serious enough damage, the most I would've expected to happen was that the upper floors would've fallen off and crashed on to the street below.
Now all I wanted to to say was that it was suspicious. I do have a conspiracy theory of my own that I've been respectfully keeping to myself, but if you REALLY want to hear it...

Did you really just compare the structures of the twin towers to jenga.....I don't know whether to laugh or cry...

Fuck it Im out of this thread. All the facts have been presented across the previous 4 pages. If anyone still believes this was a conspiracy then nothing will change their delusional minds.

/wrists

Well obviously the Twin Towers are lot more complex then then a Jenga tower, but the principles the same.

I repeat, I haven't said anything about any conspiracies about who did what to whom why or how. I don't want to get into it because I don't have the energy for it, I've already wasted more energy then I wanted to on this thread.

The Towers were definitely alot more complex then a jenga tower. with buildings that tall there has to be a bunch of steel crossbeams that make the weight go downwards. these beams also let the tower sway just a tiny bit in the wind. when you take out half the beams on the upper half of the building with a plane, the weight of the upper floors pushes through the floors in a freefall, causing the building to collapse.Any of the tall buildings in the world are that easy to destroy, ours was the only one that got hit. there really is no way you could have a conspiracy theory after this thread...I dont get people like you.

 

[The Austin]

Its all about the JFK theories man.


LEE HARVEY WAS A PATSY!!!!!!

 

[Deathsong17]

I'm dissapointed that some of the intelligent people of The Escapist can fall for such bollocks.

 

[guhzill]

I strongly believe that an airliner did not hit the Pentagon. The damage was not wide or tall enough. Plus, the FBI removed surveillance tapes that would have shown the impact clear as day and only released this as proof.

Definately not a 757 flying 10ft above the ground at 400mph by a man that was branded completely useless by his light aircraft instructors!

I also believe that if you ignore all the evidence for this theory, you are a blinkered fool!

Where is there a scale on how wide or tall a hole in a building is when a plane hits it?....

Oh wait there isn't one. You have no idea what a plane hitting a building would do. This theory in particular is the most amusing because it doesn't even try to throw a fact, or misconception out there. It simply says "oh look that hole is too small, nope a plane didn't hit that".


well explain why they confiscated and wont release the footage of the plane hitting the pentagon surely if a plane hit it they wouldnt mind releasing the videos
Last time I checked you don't really need to be that good at flying to crash a plane either. All these hijackers had to do was grab the yoke and steer the planes. They could have had zero flight experience and done it.

-------

Well all I have to say is, if it wasn't an inside job why the fuck won't the US government release a true and factual account of what happened? The reports that were released were incomplete, some of which were outright lies and there was a lot of cover up involved. Not to mention that there has been a denial of information release on many of the points of 9/11.

Also...why was there an invasion of Afghanistan plan drafted and ready to roll out before 9/11 happened?

I think that there's a lot of people out there that are too scared to think that there is something more sinister going on. What's too out there to believe that there was a more underlying motive for the invasion of Afghanistan? Iraq followed with as little truthful information and look at what that achieved. Huge increase in profits for companies with ties to the white house Administration, securing of major oil centres in the region and more BS to justify the continually rising death count of US troops and Iraqi citizens, and the worlds condemnation for it.

The Gov't did release a report. Along with DOZENS of other REAL experts/investigators. The only ones saying it's a conspiracy are the loose change guys and other completely unqualified people on the internet.

Afghanistan? We knew it was a problem before 9/11. Thats beside the point anyway because it's the U.S. militarys job to come up with military planning with a possible enemy BEFORE we go to war. It's called being prepared.

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11...thats a whole other can of worms.

So i was bored and went on youtube watching commentaries for south park, and i listen to the one about the "mystery of the urinal deuce" and down below i see comments from people saying that it was the government that planted bombs in the building and that it wasnt planes that crashed into the buildings. Really? There are still retards out there that dont believe that terrorists were the ones who blew up the two towers? The biggest arguement being "fire cant melt steel". If i remember right i think thats how they made swords back in the dark ages. I dunno, im a bit tired at the moment so i cant remember the melting point of steel, but ya, i dont believe any of these conspiracies about 9/11, what about you ppls?

just watch zeitgeist they prove it was the government, also your omly talking about the world trade center what about shanksville and the pentagon you cant expect me to believe a whole plane was vaporized by fire and the bodies where still identifiable. also what about world trade center 7 3 buildings collapsed and the plane didnt even touch 7

Building 7 collapsed from the damage it sustained when the towers fell...

The plane that hit the Pentagon wasn't "vaporized". Thats a line only conspiracy theorists say. It was completely and utterly destroyed and in a million pieces but thats just it, there were still pieces left. The plane didn't just up and vanish. Oh and you also know that you can identify a body pretty easily as long as you can grab dental records right. Bodies that have been burned beyond any physical recognition are indentified like that. Same goes to bodies of people who have been dead for ages. It really doesn't take much to do it.

--------

I'm sick of hearing about 9/11, I live in Australia and it's still talked about quite often, I know the incidents a tragity. But there have been worse things around, recently even. So I don't see why I should be concerned with conspiracy therioes

Pssssh don't you know? We're the United, FUCK YEAH, States of, FUCK YEAH, America! Our Tragedies are bigger, badder, deadlier, then anyone elses tragedy! Becuase just like our Cars, Boats, Guns, and Women thats how we do things in the God Damn U.S. of A!

/lol