9/11 Thoughts

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Kryzantine

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Feb 18, 2010
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Attention?

If they wanted to start a war and then win it, why not go after a building a few blocks away that happened to hold the govt's mainframe?

9/11 was a publicity stunt.
 

harvz

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Jun 20, 2010
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perhaps because they are TERRORists.
the terror part isn't for show, its their method of undermining the enemy, too weak to kill military, go for civilians.
 

RedxDecember

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Jun 25, 2008
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scnj said:
RedxDecember said:
Yes, of course the attackers were told about however many virgins they would have, but I would kill that many innocents for any amount of women, power or money. So what are your thoughts?
Thank you.
Is that a typo or are you saying you'd kill thousands of people?
Jeeze, yeah serious type on that one. Sorry about the 72 virgins thing as well, but I guess I had not gotten all the facts...
 

Sjakie

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Feb 17, 2010
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ChromeAlchemist said:
Sjakie said:
Brain-washed religous zealots used by powerhungry religous leaders.
I think that is why!

"God must die for man to truely live free." - unknown
Religion is scapegoated far too often. If there was no religion you think such an event wouldn't have happened? They would have been like a host of other countries who don't fight in the name of religion - doing it for their country, or because they just don't give a fuck and have goals to achieve.

Religion just made it easier to have someone take their life to take others.
/snipped here for relevance
You ask an interesting question there: As far as i know, the only ones that commit suicide attacks while unprovoked (meaning: not in a state of war) are religiously motivated individuals that are exploited by their powerbase. Any other group or country would at least give more indication that they would strike at their enemy. Not to mention they would not kill themselves in the proces that willingly. You might say the japanese (kamikaze) in WWII defy this, but they where at war and the Japanese Emperor was worshipped like a divine figure at the time. Not to mention they struck a military target, not a civilian one.

Religion is not the scapegoat, it is the cause! To be more precise it is the selfproclaimed powerbase of a religion that has others do its dirty work for them. All major religions suffer from this problem as long as they exist. No country would even begin to attack civillians from another country on that scale for something as simple as a revenge-attack, they would be reasonable enough to go for military targets first before the hell of total warfare would break loose.
So the anser is: No, such an attack would not occur without the religous aspects that this attack had.
There are instances where State-ideologies get raised up to a point where people will kill themselves for it, but those are just as bad as the blind devotion that religion requiers and are thus not that different from religion.
 

ChromeAlchemist

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Sjakie said:
You ask an interesting question there: As far as i know, the only ones that commit suicide attacks while unprovoked (meaning: not in a state of war) are religiously motivated individuals that are exploited by their powerbase. Any other group or country would at least give more indication that they would strike at their enemy. Not to mention they would not kill themselves in the proces that willingly. You might say the japanese (kamikaze) in WWII defy this, but they where at war and the Japanese Emperor was worshipped like a divine figure at the time. Not to mention they struck a military target, not a civilian one.

Religion is not the scapegoat, it is the cause! To be more precise it is the selfproclaimed powerbase of a religion that has others do its dirty work for them. All major religions suffer from this problem as long as they exist. No country would even begin to attack civillians from another country on that scale for something as simple as a revenge-attack, they would be reasonable enough to go for military targets first before the hell of total warfare would break loose.
So the anser is: No, such an attack would not occur without the religous aspects that this attack had.
There are instances where State-ideologies get raised up to a point where people will kill themselves for it, but those are just as bad as the blind devotion that religion requiers and are thus not that different from religion.
They may be just as bad, but they aren't religion, thus telling that yes, such things could happen without religion.

The first problem I think I see is that you see those attacks as if they were almost performed by a country, when they were not. They were religious people no doubt, but the fact that they held allegiance to a continent without actually representing it meant they could perform such attacks without declaration of war (though they did eventually, but it was more of a rally than a declaration of war).

You know who's done something like that without it being in the name of religion? The IRA, more specifically the RIRA. Sure, the IRA have performed atrocities in the name of religion, but they have done far more in the name of their country, and have killed countless innocent civilians without provocation, because they want England out of their country and a unified Ireland. One of those arocities was the 1998 Omagh bombing and the other an attack on a barracks in Northern Ireland that is supposed to be there through treaty, and soldiers and civilians were killed and injured because the RIRA didn't want them there, and yes, they also indulged in suicide bombings.

The parallels between the two are that both England and America had their hands in both countries in a negative way, but the difference is that the ones behind September 11 are calling for the destruction of America in the name of god, while the IRA and RIRA are not.

As for the Kamikaze, it's easy enough to cast off such things as them being so devoted to their emperor, but not only was such a thing done by individuals during WW2 before it was adopted by the military as a last ditch effort, but suicide has long been a large part of Japanese society, to abstain from shame. Extend it to the Kamikaze and they are trying to prevent shame from falling to their homeland, and none of this was religiously fueled.

The black Tigers of Sri Lanka have also suicide bombed civilians and others, but I won't go into that.

Nationalism and Idealism are just two more reasons why you would kill people, civilian or otherwise, at the expense of your own life.
 

Sjakie

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ChromeAlchemist said:
Sjakie said:
You ask an interesting question there: As far as i know, the only ones that commit suicide attacks while unprovoked (meaning: not in a state of war) are religiously motivated individuals that are exploited by their powerbase. Any other group or country would at least give more indication that they would strike at their enemy. Not to mention they would not kill themselves in the proces that willingly. You might say the japanese (kamikaze) in WWII defy this, but they where at war and the Japanese Emperor was worshipped like a divine figure at the time. Not to mention they struck a military target, not a civilian one.

Religion is not the scapegoat, it is the cause! To be more precise it is the selfproclaimed powerbase of a religion that has others do its dirty work for them. All major religions suffer from this problem as long as they exist. No country would even begin to attack civillians from another country on that scale for something as simple as a revenge-attack, they would be reasonable enough to go for military targets first before the hell of total warfare would break loose.
So the anser is: No, such an attack would not occur without the religous aspects that this attack had.
There are instances where State-ideologies get raised up to a point where people will kill themselves for it, but those are just as bad as the blind devotion that religion requiers and are thus not that different from religion.
They may be just as bad, but they aren't religion, thus telling that yes, such things could happen without religion.

The first problem I think I see is that you see those attacks as if they were almost performed by a country, when they were not. They were religious people no doubt, but the fact that they held allegiance to a continent without actually representing it meant they could perform such attacks without declaration of war (though they did eventually, but it was more of a rally than a declaration of war).

You know who's done something like that without it being in the name of religion? The IRA, more specifically the RIRA. Sure, the IRA have performed atrocities in the name of religion, but they have done far more in the name of their country, and have killed countless innocent civilians without provocation, because they want England out of their country and a unified Ireland. One of those arocities was the 1998 Omagh bombing and the other an attack on a barracks in Northern Ireland that is supposed to be there through treaty, and soldiers and civilians were killed and injured because the RIRA didn't want them there, and yes, they also indulged in suicide bombings.

The parallels between the two are that both England and America had their hands in both countries in a negative way, but the difference is that the ones behind September 11 are calling for the destruction of America in the name of god, while the IRA and RIRA are not.

As for the Kamikaze, it's easy enough to cast off such things as them being so devoted to their emperor, but not only was such a thing done by individuals during WW2 before it was adopted by the military as a last ditch effort, but suicide has long been a large part of Japanese society, to abstain from shame. Extend it to the Kamikaze and they are trying to prevent shame from falling to their homeland, and none of this was religiously fueled.

The black Tigers of Sri Lanka have also suicide bombed civilians and others, but I won't go into that.

Nationalism and Idealism are just two more reasons why you would kill people, civilian or otherwise, at the expense of your own life.
nice to see you came around to my way of thinking. But you seem to have missed the actual argument i was trying to make.
I do not know how you got the idea that i viewed the 911 attacks as from a country, you are sorely mistaken on that part since i was discussing religious groups and not countries. But in the end that hardly matters

As for similarities between terrorist groups: Even when they have political motivations like the IRA, the religous ideology is right on it's tail. You said so yourself. And the RIRA only went after British authorities and later also protestant civilian centers which gives it more then enough of a religious character, even if their goals where also political. Not to mention that the IRA had Sinn fein as a legitemate political party and they called for cease fires while the religious nutters in the IRA and their splintergroups kept on bombing. Which just show that religion has a much easier grasp of abusing violence and terror.

You also conveniently left out the part of "suicide" when i was discussing exactly that part of bombings/attacking civillians. Terror usually targets civilians because that is it's target: to invoke terror in the population. But most if not all terrorist groups dont diminish their own numbers to do so unless they think of it as their holy duty to 'the cause'. The IRA liked remote carbombings, they didn't blow themselves up. Well, maybe they did from time to time, but i bet they did that more as a last defensive strategy to avoid capture. For simpel revenge attacks their weapon of choice was remote carbombings.

I also allready made the distinction between 'being at war' (or 'being in conflict' as we call it when it concerns a political or religious group) and actually provoking one with a revenge attack as 911 was, something you also ignored.
Plenty of soldiers/freedomfighters/terrorist's will rather kill themselves then being captured or try to go for that 'blaze of glory' in a fight and this was my motivation for mentioning the Kamikazes. As i said in my earlier argument: they were not that willingly to start with that. These soldiers where allready at war and fighting for the survival of Japan. Well, we both understand and agree on that part.

So in the end my point still stands: Without religious groups we would not have suicide revenge attacks that provoke wars. I guess i should add the word radical to that statement.

When a group has a political agenda besides the religious one you get messy situations like with all terrorist groups, but the political ones won't just start with blowing themselves up for invoking terror, just the religous ones do that.
If you are talking about an ongoing conflict or full blown (civil) warfare, well, then all rules go overboard and civillian casualties always happen.
But my main gripe with religion is that even political groups will eventually claim to 'regret civillian casulties' while religious ones will revel in the number of 'slaughtered infidels'
 

BonsaiK

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American foreign policy and intervention has resulted in the deaths of thousands of people all over the globe and has been hated all around the world for decades. The only thing that amazed me about 9/11 is that it didn't happen sooner, it seemed like such an obvious thing for people to do in retrospect.
2012 Wont Happen said:
One was the U.S. bombings of civilian water supplies in the Muslim nation of Iraq in the 90's, as well as subsequent medical and food embargoes that caused the deaths of over 500,000 civilians.
This is incorrect - while these events did in fact occur, Iraq was actually a secular nation under Saddam Hussein (who was actually the only non-religious dictator in the Middle East), and the bombers were mostly Saudi Arabians who wouldn't have given a shit about what was happening in Iraq. They probably had plenty of reasons valid or otherwise to dislike the USA, but the fate of Iraqi people was probably not high on their list.
 

TheYellowCellPhone

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Turrel said:
only way to get fat yanks to run is by making them run from a collapsing building.


http://www.regretsy.com/images//911cookie.jpg
Obvious troll is obvious.

You specifically seeked out this thread just to post that. No doubt, the only way to find a five month old thread like this is to use the search function >.>
 

magicmonkeybars

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Nov 20, 2007
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The virgins those terrorists get are boys, it's in the quran.
OT what a few psychos do to a few thousand people is no worse than what many governments have done to millions of people over decades.
 

Plurralbles

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Jan 12, 2010
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Why? Because.

Bush actually went and did hte right thing and said don't blame all muslims for the attack, but hten he instantly goes and attacks Iraq.

He was so good the first few days then BAM, retarded douchebag.
 

BonsaiK

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Nov 14, 2007
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this isnt my name said:
BonsaiK said:
American foreign policy and intervention has resulted in the deaths of thousands of people all over the globe and has been hated all around the world for decades. The only thing that amazed me about 9/11 is that it didn't happen sooner, it seemed like such an obvious thing for people to do in retrospect.
2012 Wont Happen said:
One was the U.S. bombings of civilian water supplies in the Muslim nation of Iraq in the 90's, as well as subsequent medical and food embargoes that caused the deaths of over 500,000 civilians.
This is incorrect - while these events did in fact occur, Iraq was actually a secular nation under Saddam Hussein (who was actually the only non-religious dictator in the Middle East), and the bombers were mostly Saudi Arabians who wouldn't have given a shit about what was happening in Iraq. They probably had plenty of reasons valid or otherwise to dislike the USA, but the fate of Iraqi people was probably not high on their list.
Thats one thing that pisses me off, I actually think Iraq was BETTER under Saddam, sure he killed people, but he kept the taliban out and he didnt have Sharia.
I have to agree America pissed lots of places off, with its world police attitude. Allthough they mainly interfered with communist countries "how dare they choose communism".

I am just going to say they were insane, hate + 72 virgins, but now they are probablly out of virgins (probablly were after 72 days)so now they are stuck with 72 whores, not a bad afterlife, but not worth what they did.
Well, Saddam was initially backed by the US, who gave him weapons to fight Iran. Did Iraq have chemical "weapons of mass destruction"? Of course he did, the US knew this because they had the receipts! Saddam just used them all in the 80s under the stewardship of the CIA, by the time the weapons inspectors were called in post-Kuwait there were only a few empty rocket casings left.

The reason why Saddam was backed by the US inititally was, obviously, as an American ally to control fundamentalist religion in the region. More recently when the US invaded and toppled him, religious insurgents who weren't there before started flooding into the country. Why? To fight the Americans!
 

Chefodeath

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Sneaky-Pie said:
Hate makes the world go round.

Human life is too precious to bicker about who's philosophy is the right one. There's nothing more pathetic than persecuting someone who doesn't think the same way we do.
Oh ya? What are you going to go if I disagree?
 

SuperUberBob

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Nov 19, 2008
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Terrorists are using a warped interpretation of the Koran to send people to their deaths due to a personal vendetta some raghead had against America in the early 80's.

I was 16 when it happened and remember event-by-event as though it was only yesterday. People who lived through the Kennedy assassination could tell you the same thing about that.
 

2012 Wont Happen

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BonsaiK said:
American foreign policy and intervention has resulted in the deaths of thousands of people all over the globe and has been hated all around the world for decades. The only thing that amazed me about 9/11 is that it didn't happen sooner, it seemed like such an obvious thing for people to do in retrospect.
2012 Wont Happen said:
One was the U.S. bombings of civilian water supplies in the Muslim nation of Iraq in the 90's, as well as subsequent medical and food embargoes that caused the deaths of over 500,000 civilians.
This is incorrect - while these events did in fact occur, Iraq was actually a secular nation under Saddam Hussein (who was actually the only non-religious dictator in the Middle East), and the bombers were mostly Saudi Arabians who wouldn't have given a shit about what was happening in Iraq. They probably had plenty of reasons valid or otherwise to dislike the USA, but the fate of Iraqi people was probably not high on their list.
That doesn't change the fact that, when Osama Bin Ladin attacked us, he sited as one of his reasons the bombings of civilian water supplies in Iraq.

It was a secular nation, but the people were by a vast majority Muslim. So, while my statement that it was a Muslim nation was incorrect, it is true that our attacks against it was part of the inspiration for the 9/11 attacks.