A Beheading In France

[Trunkage]

I think people are very hung up on the World War II stereotype of the French and the more recent ‘cheese eating surrender monkeys’ attitude because they didn’t want in on the adventures in Iraq, and subsequently they forget that culturally France has incredibly strong roots in personal liberty.

So good show.

Yeah the French are very in for banning all religious iconography. I can say that I think I’m into it

 

[CM156]

I'll take it as a no, you know full well it's not actually gonna sway them and are in it just for the punishment aspect

It's not a matter of swaying people, is a matter of creating cause and effect.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

It's not a matter of swaying people, is a matter of creating cause and effect.

Which more of a show than anything if it doesn't make people act in a different manner. You're treating it like some sort of simplistic form of dog training. They're not gonna give a fuck because the way they acted wasn't some rational thing in the first place.

 

[CM156]

You're treating it like some sort of simplistic form of dog training.

Basically, yes.

They don't have to be fully rational to come to accept the futility of trying to silence speech through violence.

I can't of course, prove that this is going to work. But it's certainly a good experiment. I'd like to see something focused on disgracing the perpetrators, such as cartoons of them engaged in sexual congress with Muhammad and pigs or something equally taboo, so that any future attacker can know that that will be their fate as well. But this is a good start.

When dealing with irrational people, I've always found it preferable to escalate rather than negotiate, especially if their degree of escalation is more limited than yours.

 

[Thaluikhain]

They don't have to be fully rational to come to accept the futility of trying to silence speech through violence.

It's an excellent way of telling the Islamic community they aren't welcome in France, which is quite useful to radical groups, though.

Disgracing the perpetrators seems better, IMHO, you don't want to bring their religion into it, but you want to make sure the media doesn't portray them as cool death cult members or whatever.

 

[CM156]

It's an excellent way of telling the Islamic community they aren't welcome in France, which is quite useful to radical groups, though.

Muslims should absolutely be welcome in France.
Islamists or those who cannot cope with French secularism should not be welcome in France.
The problem is separating the two groups.
Also, probably a good idea to deal with those massive slums around major French cities. And keep a close eye on Mosques that get foreign funding.

 

[Gordon_4]

Yeah the French are very in for banning all religious iconography. I can say that I think I’m into it

I remember that and I think - and don’t quote me - that the ban is limited to government buildings and public schools. So if you go to the local government school, no religious iconography.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Basically, yes.

They don't have to be fully rational to come to accept the futility of trying to silence speech through violence.

I can't of course, prove that this is going to work. But it's certainly a good experiment. I'd like to see something focused on disgracing the perpetrators, such as cartoons of them engaged in sexual congress with Muhammad and pigs or something equally taboo, so that any future attacker can know that that will be their fate as well. But this is a good start.

When dealing with irrational people, I've always found it preferable to escalate rather than negotiate, especially if their degree of escalation is more limited than yours.

They're acting in ways that will get them potentially killed already. Throwing on things like this is for the feelings of onlookers, not because there's any reason to think it would work.

 

[Terminal Blue]

I think people are very hung up on the World War II stereotype of the French and the more recent ‘cheese eating surrender monkeys’ attitude because they didn’t want in on the adventures in Iraq, and subsequently they forget that culturally France has incredibly strong roots in personal liberty.

..for white people.

France's tradition of personal liberty for anyone else is.. well let's just say mixed.

Also, remember when a bunch of French towns banned full body swimsuits on public beaches and armed police were going around forcing women to undress because their clothing was (to quote the tribunal that ruled in this case of one of the bans) "liable to offend the religious convictions or (religious) non-convictions of other users of the beach".

So yeah, I think this has less to do with a tradition of personal liberty (to which I'd point out that one could easily make the argument that culturally France has incredibly strong roots in autocracy) and more to do with the fact that, in France, only certain people are allowed to be offended.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Doublepost for some reason.

 

[CM156]

They're acting in ways that will get them potentially killed already. Throwing on things like this is for the feelings of onlookers, not because there's any reason to think it would work.

Thinking about it, you're almost certainly right.

However, I hate these SOBs and see no reason why their death at the hands of French law enforcement should let them escape punishment.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Thinking about it, you're almost certainly right.

However, I hate these SOBs and see no reason why their death at the hands of French law enforcement should let them escape punishment.

Can understand that sentiment. Just like, in part wanna be clear I think it's more for the onlookers feeling a sense of getting back than something that's gonna be effective.

Am like somewhat uncomfortable with it, because I think it's somewhat callous to many others. Kind of like if people decided good revenge whenever Christians did something was to make a video of Jesus taking a cross up the ass or something, it's offensive to way more than just the ones in question. If it was just the people personally depicted I'd find it mmm, sort of a weird display of revenge but not as uncomfortable. That said, I'm not gonna object to it exactly, just worry a bit about who its intended to strike at in some instances, the criminals and those who think like them or the community at large. Certainly imagine some care most about striking at the perpetrators, but not sure if that's the only message sent nor if that sentiment is universal.

 

[Gordon_4]

..for white people.

France's tradition of personal liberty for anyone else is.. well let's just say mixed.

Also, remember when a bunch of French towns banned full body swimsuits on public beaches and armed police were going around forcing women to undress because their clothing was (to quote the tribunal that ruled in this case of one of the bans) "liable to offend the religious convictions or (religious) non-convictions of other users of the beach".

So yeah, I think this has less to do with a tradition of personal liberty (to which I'd point out that one could easily make the argument that culturally France has incredibly strong roots in autocracy) and more to do with the fact that, in France, only certain people are allowed to be offended.

It really is fucking pathological with you.

 

[Thaluikhain]

It really is fucking pathological with you.

I sorta remember that incident (or others like it) myself, so not seeing how Terminal Blue is wrong here.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

I sorta remember that incident (or others like it) myself, so not seeing how Terminal Blue is wrong here.

Yeah ngl I saw that response and was like ??? but just decided it seemed like some sort of personal beef because otherwise I don't understand

 

[Hawki]

in France, only certain people are allowed to be offended.

As opposed to individuals of another group who perform shootings and decapitations of course.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

As opposed to individuals of another group who perform shootings and decapitations of course.

Someone said France had a thing for personal liberty. He disagreed, saying that.

What point are you trying to make with this rebuttal? That a group he didn't say had a thing for personal liberty doesn't? With vague refusal to name the group you're talking about added in too

 

[Terminal Blue]

As opposed to individuals of another group who perform shootings and decapitations of course.

Are you saying that the women who were forced to undress for dressing "immorally" (again, I am not adding these words) on public beaches were beheading people?

If the French lawmakers and police had come out and said "yeah, we're doing this as a form of collective punishment because we don't like Muslims and they are bad terrorists" then it would make sense to argue that a suspension of the legal rights of Muslims as a class was justified as a form of collective punishment. It would still be monstrous for you to defend that, and collective punishment as an idea would still be contrary to any sound principle of individual liberty including the human rights legislation of both France and the EU, but you could defend it if you were a horrible person.

But that's not the argument. The argument is very clearly that the outfit itself could be offensive to the religious sensibilities of others using the beach. That is my problem here, it's the hypocrisy of declaring that some people's religious (or non-religious moral) sensibilities deserve to be protected even if it means impinging upon the rights of others, while those same people are obligated to endure any insult or offense as a means of proving their right to exist within the protection of the state.

That is hypocritical. It's openly and obviously hypocritical for a state to applaud deliberate insult of a hated minority as a form of free expression while members of that minority wearing the wrong swimsuit is an unacceptable criminal offence because it might offend people.

It really is fucking pathological with you.

I agree. There is something very pathological here. I'm just not sure it's with me, in this case.

 

[Hawki]

What point are you trying to make with this rebuttal?

In that Terminal Blue is insinuating that "white French" are the group that isn't allowed to be offended, posted on a thread that's sparked about an Islamist committing murder after being offended.

There's certainly no rule on who's allowed to be offended, but right now, certain individuals take worse offence to being offended than others. Like, your Christian example. I'm sure Christians would be offended. I doubt there's many Christians who'd decapitate people over it.

Are you saying that the women who were forced to undress for dressing "immorally" (again, I am not adding these words) on public beaches were beheading people?

No. See above.

If the French lawmakers and police had come out and said "yeah, we're doing this as a form of collective punishment because we don't like Muslims and they are bad terrorists" then it would make sense to argue that a suspension of the legal rights of Muslims as a class was justified as a form of collective punishment. It would still be monstrous for you to defend that, and collective punishment as an idea would still be contrary to any sound principle of individual liberty including the human rights legislation of both France and the EU, but you could defend it if you were a horrible person.

I'm actually iffy on the whole "you can't wear religious symbols at work" angle, period. Freedom of religion isn't the same thing as freedom from religion.

 

[Satinavian]

France does have some problems with its colonial past, especially when Algeria is concerned.

Also while France is very secular, that was not done to promote religious freedom.