A bit of deep thought for ya

[Beltaine]

Most Physicists believe in God or some form of ultimate single entity because the universe itself is so complex, with subtle nuances, that every question they answer 10 more questions come up. Einstein himself said "God did not throw dice with the Universe.". Everything does have a natural logic to it, just because we cannot see it or understand it does not mean it automatically doesn't. Logic doesn't bind us or shelter us from anything. In fact, the truth of the matter is that logic is scarier than mystisism or spirituality. The latter would have you believe that you are part of something, logic says you are a part of something, an insignificent part. What's scarier? "I am one with the Universe." or "Yes I am one with the Universe, but the Universe will get along with or with out me.". Many people experience things that they can't explain or don't even give a second thought. I don't understand JAVA or even electricity. Does that me everytime I turn on the computer or a light switch that I should get on my knees and that God. No. At the end of the day though I do get on my knees and pray and thank him for inspiring the men and women who did. Because when it comes down to it, God invented everything. We just discover his inventions.

I agree.

And when we finally make all the logical links to God, we may find out there never really was God. I think that scares people more than letting go of logic.

 

[Moccamonster]

How is infinity but a mere concept.
So, our line of numbers ends somewhere?
ps, not a mathematician or anything, so mind my low education on infinity...

That's just it, the line of numbers is nothing more than a concept, a derivative of human mind and imagination.

Again, how are our numbers but a mere concept?

So the entire idea of quantity only exists in our mind?

 

[Sewora]

How is infinity but a mere concept.
So, our line of numbers ends somewhere?
ps, not a mathematician or anything, so mind my low education on infinity...

That's just it, the line of numbers is nothing more than a concept, a derivative of human mind and imagination.

Again, how are our numbers but a mere concept?

So the entire idea of quantity only exists in our mind?

Exactly. Even if numbers allows you to count to an infinate number (In theory), you wouldn't be able to, because if your human limits. You'd die before.

Infinity is a concept that we use in math and such, but nothing that actually exists within our physical universe.

 

[Zacharine]

Infinity was once described to me in the following manner:

Imagine a planet the size of Jupiter made of steel. Imagine an asteroid comes around every thousand years, taking one molecule with it. Otherwise the planet stays the same the entire time in between.

Try to imagine the time it would take for the asteroid to grind the planet into nothingness.

I bet you can't do it. I sure can't. We are talking a timeframe longer than our universe has existed, after all.

Now imagine that once that first planet is gone, a second planet comes along. The process is repeated.

Imagine the process keeps repeating until more planets are gone than there are grains of sand in the Sahara and Gobi deserts combined.

That would merely be the first day of infinity. And there would be an infinite number of days like that ahead.

Human mind is not well equipped to deal with the concept of infinity. Nothing in nature is infinite, therefore we have no reason to utilize such concepts (discounting our natural curiosity of course).

 

[Zombie_Fish]

I once heard on TV that there are actually at least 8, 9 or 10 senses, as you also sense among other things, heat and also where your limbs are when you can't see them or have your eyes shut.

 

[Zacharine]

I once heard on TV that there are actually at least 8, 9 or 10 senses, as you also sense among other things, heat and also where your limbs are when you can't see them or have your eyes shut.

Depending on how you count, humans have something like up to 40 senses. You have 2 different senses for preassure (low and high) two for temperature (hot/cold), hearing, sense of balance, the different senses of taste (sour, bitter, sweet....) and so on.

Not to mentioned what is sometimes called the 'body sense', the ability to accurately and instantly tell the position and relation of your limbs to the rest of your body, even without touching or seeing them. Then there's the sense of acceleration...

 

[Sewora]

... also where your limbs are when you can't see them or have your eyes shut.

That's not a sense, that's your brain's memory. It knows the body it's attached to, and always knows where to find your bodyparts. But you can trick your brain in many various ways.

Like crossing your fingers and touching the tip of your nose with both tips of your crossed fingers.

But it's not a sense, just one of your brain's functions.

 

[Moccamonster]

How is infinity but a mere concept.
So, our line of numbers ends somewhere?
ps, not a mathematician or anything, so mind my low education on infinity...

That's just it, the line of numbers is nothing more than a concept, a derivative of human mind and imagination.

Again, how are our numbers but a mere concept?

So the entire idea of quantity only exists in our mind?

Exactly. Even if numbers allows you to count to an infinate number (In theory), you wouldn't be able to, because if your human limits. You'd die before.

Infinity is a concept that we use in math and such, but nothing that actually exists within our physical universe.

Then I would programm a computer to start with 1, and constantly add 1.

Infinity is a concept we created, but it does exist.

Let's say you're 10 feet away from a wall. Each time, you take 1 step, and shorten the distance with a half. This would go on for infinity, until a molecular level, and beyond that.

Infinity was once described to me in the following manner:

Imagine a planet the size of Jupiter made of steel. Imagine an asteroid comes around every thousand years, taking one molecule with it. Otherwise the planet stays the same the entire time in between.

Try to imagine the it would take for the asteroid to grind the planet into nothingness?

I bet you can't do it. I sure can't.

Now imagine that once that first planet is gone, a second planet comes along. The process is repeated.

Imagine the process keeps repeating until more planets are gone than there are grains of sand in the Sahara and Gobi deserts combined.

That would merely be the first day of infinity. And there would be an infinite number of days like that ahead.

Human mind is not well equipped to deal with the concept of infinity. Nothing in nature is infinite, therefore we have no reason to utilize such concepts (discounting our natural curiosity of course).

It's use is debatable, naturally, but there is a difference between how one can utalize it and if it exists.

 

[Zacharine]

... also where your limbs are when you can't see them or have your eyes shut.

That's not a sense, that's your brain's memory. It knows the body it's attached to, and always knows where to find your bodyparts. But you can trick your brain in many various ways.

Like crossing your fingers and touching the tip of your nose with both tips of your crossed fingers.

But it's not a sense, just one of your brain's functions.

And what is hearing, if not the ability of the brain to decipher the messages sent by the cells in the ear? Merely an ability of a brain. Or the sense of cold? It is an electrical impuls straight from the beginning of your finger to your brain. It is a signal intrepeted by the brain. The only limit you can put to it is that the signal started outside of the brain, otherwise what's the difference?

And how can the body remember something it didn't do? Like you wake up in a pitch-black room and your roommate has forcibly moved your hand. You can still detect the position of your hand, even though it wasn't the brain that moved it or canse see/touch it.

 

[Anachronism]

Human mind is not well equipped to deal with the concept of infinity. Nothing in nature is infinite, therefore we have no reason to utilize such concepts (discounting our natural curiosity of course).

I'll go one better than that: I believe the human mind simply cannot comprehend infinity. I seriously doubt even the most intelligent person alive could adequately define infinity. Your definition was good, but the problem is that it doesn't even come close to the sort of time scale that infinity deals with. It's yet another of those things that cannot be defined by logic: we cannot describe or quantify infinity in any way, and as such, we just have to accept that it exists. Probably the closest you can get to it is staring up into the sky at night, seeing hundreds of stars from thousands of light years away. Even that doesn't do it justice.

The same goes for nothingness. Like infinity, it is impossible for the human mind to define nothingness, for much the same reason. The closest we can get to nothing is a vacuum, but even that is not nothing, because the vacuum is still there. This is the main reason, for me at least, that trying to figure out how the universe came to be is so confusing, because before the universe existed, there was nothing. There was no vacuum, because there was nothing for a vacuum to exist in. I can accept the concept, but I can't understand it, and I don't think anyone can, because, like you said, the human mind is not equipped to deal with such things.

Incidentally, this is one of the reasons I love the Escapist: where else on the Internet could you have a discussion like this?

 

[Sewora]

I meant:

You know your way around your apartment, because you live there. You memorize it to your advantage. Even with closed eyes you could probably manouver it fairly well.

Same thing with your brain.

Easier to understand now?

 

[Sewora]

Human mind is not well equipped to deal with the concept of infinity. Nothing in nature is infinite, therefore we have no reason to utilize such concepts (discounting our natural curiosity of course).

The same goes for nothingness. Like infinity, it is impossible for the human mind to define nothingness ...

Light can be stacked infinately, just reverse that and you got nothingness. Hehe.. This isn't a serious reply though

 

[Larenxis]

I'd just like to mention Immanuel Kant to everybody. He thought some things. Wrote them down. And I guess they're not as well read as I thought they were...

Also, I don't think people operate only in the world of logic. Intuition appears to have been totally dropped for some reason, and I think it plays a vital role in people's lives, especially regarding their metaphysical beliefs. I find love transcendental, and although it messes around with my logical side sometimes, I can recognize it as a greater level of truth.

 

[Moccamonster]

Human mind is not well equipped to deal with the concept of infinity. Nothing in nature is infinite, therefore we have no reason to utilize such concepts (discounting our natural curiosity of course).

I'll go one better than that: I believe the human mind simply cannot comprehend infinity. I seriously doubt even the most intelligent person alive could adequately define infinity. Your definition was good, but the problem is that it doesn't even come close to the sort of time scale that infinity deals with. It's yet another of those things that cannot be defined by logic: we cannot describe or quantify infinity in any way, and as such, we just have to accept that it exists. Probably the closest you can get to it is staring up into the sky at night, seeing hundreds of stars from thousands of light years away. Even that doesn't do it justice.

The same goes for nothingness. Like infinity, it is impossible for the human mind to define nothingness, for much the same reason. The closest we can get to nothing is a vacuum, but even that is not nothing, because the vacuum is still there. This is the main reason, for me at least, that trying to figure out how the universe came to be is so confusing, because before the universe existed, there was nothing. There was no vacuum, because there was nothing for a vacuum to exist in. I can accept the concept, but I can't understand it, and I don't think anyone can, because, like you said, the human mind is not equipped to deal with such things.

Incidentally, this is one of the reasons I love the Escapist: where else on the Internet could you have a discussion like this?

I'm gonna go on a limb here, aren't black holes made of nothing?

 

[Zacharine]

Then I would programm a computer to start with 1, and constantly add 1.

and even with an infinity of time, it would never reach infinity. Because it could always add yet another one. Literally, the universe around it would die before it reached anything resembling an infinity.

Infinity is a concept we created, but it does exist.

Yes, but only as a concept.

Let's say you're 10 feet away from a wall. Each time, you take 1 step, and shorten the distance with a half. This would go on for infinity, until a molecular level, and beyond that.

Oh please, not this again. This has been solved for over 2000 years.

The thing is, in the real universe you will end up with the smallest distance you can take. It might be due to the inaccuracy of your muscles or other some factor. The very nature of the universe would require that you cannot eternally halve the distance you step forwards. And then comes the point where you will have to take the smallest possible step again and again or stop moving entirely. And if you move any set distance at any speed, you will reach the target long before eternity comes knocking.

And if you discount the limits of physical reality, such as human inaccuracy in controlling motion, the Plank's constant etc., then you have entered the realm of concepts where infinity is does exist.

It's use is debatable, naturally, but there is a difference between how one can utalize it and if it exists.

True. Infinity does exist just as number one exists or imaginary numbers exist. As a concept and a tool of human mind, nothing more.

 

[Anachronism]

I'm gonna go on a limb here, aren't black holes made of nothing?

I'm not a physicist, so I may very well be wrong here, but isn't the heart of a black hole a collapsed star? Essentially, the same mass as a regular star, but so small that it draws everything nearby towards it. They remove matter from the universe, but as far as I know there is still vacuum left behind. Plus, there is matter in the black hole itself, so they're not made of nothing.

Again, not a physicist: very high chance that that explanation was completely wrong.

I find love transcendental, and although it messes around with my logical side sometimes, I can recognize it as a greater level of truth.

This is more or less what I've been blathering on about. Glad to see someone agrees with me.

 

[Sewora]

None knows what a black hole is. We only have theories

 

[Moccamonster]

Then I would programm a computer to start with 1, and constantly add 1.

and even with an infinity of time, it would never reach infinity. Because it could always add yet another one. Literally, the universe around it would die before it reached anything resembling an infinity.

Infinity is a concept we created, but it does exist.

Yes, but only as a concept.

Let's say you're 10 feet away from a wall. Each time, you take 1 step, and shorten the distance with a half. This would go on for infinity, until a molecular level, and beyond that.

Oh please, not this again. This has been solved for over 2000 years.

The thing is, in the real universe you will end up with the smallest distance you can take. It might be due to the inaccuracy of your muscles or other some factor. The very nature of the universe would require that you cannot eternally halve the distance you step forwards. And then comes the point where you will have to take the smallest possible step again and again or stop moving entirely. And if you move any set distance at any speed, you will reach the target long before eternity comes knocking.

And if you discount the limits of physical reality, such as human inaccuracy in controlling motion, the Plank's constant etc., then you have entered the realm of concepts where infinity is does exist.

It's use is debatable, naturally, but there is a difference between how one can utalize it and if it exists.

True. Infinity does exist just as number one exists or imaginary numbers exist. As a concept and a tool of human mind, nothing more.

CANNOT COMPUTE!!1!

But about my point of halving the distance, i was speaking theoretically. I understand that a person cannot take steps to a moleculair level

But leaving aside the downfall of the universe etc, counting to infinity would be impossible, because it's INFINITE!


Final example: TIME.

Time, in any way, is infinite. Even if the universe would collapse, and existence is gone, you could still count on time...

 

[Sewora]

Correction; Time ends when sentinent beings ends. Time is an illusion we've created, so it ends when we end, because then none will be left to grasp it. Moving in on philosophical territory though

 

[Zacharine]

I'm gonna go on a limb here, aren't black holes made of nothing?

I'm not a physicist, so I may very well be wrong here, but isn't the heart of a black hole a collapsed star? Essentially, the same mass as a regular star, but so small that it draws everything nearby towards it. They remove matter from the universe, but as far as I know there is still vacuum left behind. Plus, there is matter in the black hole itself, so they're not made of nothing.

Again, not a physicist: very high chance that that explanation was completely wrong.

I find love transcendental, and although it messes around with my logical side sometimes, I can recognize it as a greater level of truth.

This is more or less what I've been blathering on about. Glad to see someone agrees with me.

Actually black holes are just a mass made of matter, so much of it collapsed under it's own weight that not even light escapes.

Black holes are some of the most heavy objects known to man.

But, incidentally, something does escape. Hawkings radiation (named after Stephen Hawking, our favourite wheel-chair theoretical phycisist). If requested, I can clarify this, but it's a bit of a complicated matter so....

Anyway, black holes as such don't remove matter. Sure, it removes the matter from being used by anything els, but the matter is still there, as a psrt of the black hole. In essence, the black hole grows with every molecule of matter is sucks into it.

As far as we know anyway, beyond the event horizon (the point of no return for light) of a black hole we can't definitively know anything with our current observational equipment.

So, saying that the laws of physics break down the the singularity (the center of the black hole) is not entirely inaccurate.