A conundrum if you will.

[Alipax]

Fellow Escapists, while doing nothing, I usually have moments of very deep thought, and while in one of these deep thoughts, I suddenly had an epiphany. Infinity dosen't exist.

You may be thinking that I'm high, but hear me out. What do we believe to be infinite? Lets go with a common example, the universe. It is common belief that the universe expands at such a fast rate that it is infinite, however if it expands then it has an edge and therefore can't be infinite. Infinte is simply a placeholder for numbers that we can't concieve.

Want another example? How about placing two mirrors infront of each other, one mirror reflects the reflection of the other mirror in an infinite loop. However, when we try to view this loop, we can't. Why? Because whatever it is you are using to try to view this, be it yourself or a camera, will block the continueous reflection.

So does what I have written have any merit? Or is there something that exists that is truly infinte?

-Edit-
I'm not sure if it's my wording or if people are misunderstanding what i said, but I never said it wasn't true, just that as far we can experience, it dosen't exist.
(P.S. If I seem to be getting incoherent, it's because I seem to have developed insomnia as I have not slept for two days, which in turn is making me all phylosophical)

 

[Darth Caelum]

Agreed concerning the Universe. But, since we did block the mirror, then doesn't it mean that The Mirror's loop WAS infinite?

 

[adumb24]

time it has no true beginning and no true end

 

[Larsirius]

Lets back up a little, to the start of this train of thought.

Lets assume something we use to comfort ourselves regularly to be truth: "Nothing is forever."

Now, we normally use this to comfort ourselves, all of the bad things will end eventually.

Now, that means that life will end eventually, ending in Death.

But that also means Death will end eventually, too.

"Okay, this guy is some rebirth fanatic, I'll just sage this thread and move on," but bear with me, the cycle of rebirth must also end eventually, but into what?

"The universe will end, so what?" But then what ever follows will end, too.

"So another universe will pop up, okay?" But then that must end.

"See above." But then that cycle must end.

"You lost me." Thats where I'm going.

Just what happens after this cycle of universes ends? What could possibly come next? And what after that? And after that? We cannot possibly imagine the end of this horrid infinite loop.

Lost in a void of things extremely bad and good at the same time, how will you feel?

The pain seems like it would never end, but according to our assumed truth it must.

Game as life seems, every once in a while you just have to stop and read the first words of the last five lines.

 

[Asturiel]

Like Darth said, I'll give you the universe bit, but nothing can ever be infinite, it just becomes so large that we assume that is it very large, that it could go on "forever". Although we could just have situations that never truly end, they just continue and continue, for an infinite time until they are stopped.

Infinity is just a convenient way to say "very very very very (very)x3000...big". Sorry to sound belittling but it's not that complex of an idea.

 

[Alipax]

Agreed concerning the Universe. But, since we did block the mirror, then doesn't it mean that The Mirror's loop WAS infinite?

If we cannot see the loop without blocking it, than can we say that there is a loop? There is no way of getting proof that it is infinite.

 

[guardian001]

I believe the idea that the universe is infinite refers to the fact that its dimensions are and will continue to increase infinitely. Not that it actually contains infinite space, but that the space it is capable of occupying is infinite.

If we cannot see the loop without blocking it

One-way mirror.

 

[grimsprice]

You may be thinking that I'm high, but hear me out. What do we believe to be infinite? Lets go with a common example, the universe. It is common belief that the universe expands at such a fast rate that it is infinite, however if it expands then it has an edge and therefore can't be infinite. Infinte is simply a placeholder for numbers that we can't concieve.

wrong. "infinite" can be expanded. Just because our human brains aren't built to have it make intuitive sense does not mean its not true.

It has to be infinite, because if it is not, then what is beyond it, and what is beyond that... you can carry this out until you have to give up and concede an infinite.

Want another example? How about placing two mirrors infront of each other, one mirror reflects the reflection of the other mirror in an infinite loop. However, when we try to view this loop, we can't. Why? Because whatever it is you are using to try to view this, be it yourself or a camera, will block the continueous reflection.

Wrong, Its not infinite because light in quantified in photons, and the two surfaces are not perfect, they absorb and/or scatter trace amounts of light until the final quantum of light is no longer bouncing between the two panes. If you could make all the necessary bits perfect: The smoothness of the surface, reflectivity, a vacuum in between, and perfect alignment, the photons would bounce back and forth forever.

If you want a physicist to explain it.... Go to the exact 1 hour mark to hear the coolness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo

 

[Chamale]

In mathematics, the concept of infinity pops up a lot. There's a very simple proof that infinite numbers exist; if there was a finite number of integers, this would imply that there's a "highest" integer. No matter what the "highest integer" is, you can always add 1 to it. Ta-da, infinity.

In a universe defined by non-infinitesimal units of time and space, it is possible to make a solid case against infinity. However, some models of physics do hold that the universe will go on forever, or that it will cycle in an infinite series of Big Bangs and Big Crunches.

 

[Konaerix]

YOu didn't come to the conclusion that the universe isn't expanding?

MAYBE INFINITY IS GETTING LARGER.

But Infinity by definition is endless, So it can't get larger.

 

[DarthFennec]

There is no merit to what you said, but I commend you for trying ^_^ Space is infinite, what's expanding is the stuff in it. There's an edge to matter and energy within space, but empty space exists infinitely beyond that. Although, since it is empty and there's nothing there, it might as well not be worth noting at all. It's all about how you look at it. I noticed this about game graphics, back when I decided I was going to write a game engine and I utterly failed at it. Anyway, I realized that on a computer, it takes less resources to define an infinite space than to define a bounded one. If you think about the universe the same way, it starts to make a lot more sense. I don't see infinity as a placeholder for numbers that we can't conceive, I just see it as a number that doesn't make any physical sense. it's like i, the square root of -1. Imaginary numbers make no sense, they can't happen, but if you use it in your equations you can do a lot of useful things that do make sense. Same thing with infinity.

 

[Darth Caelum]

Agreed concerning the Universe. But, since we did block the mirror, then doesn't it mean that The Mirror's loop WAS infinite?

If we cannot see the loop without blocking it, than can we say that there is a loop? There is no way of getting proof that it is infinite.

So we agree that a Universe exists right? Have any of us really seen the universe with our own eyes? No. The Universe is everything that exists. As such, we cannot go OUT of the Universe, we have neither the reason, nor ability to do so. Without going out of the Universe, can you really say that the Universe is, or is not Infinite as well? You can't answer that, not without invalidating your previous statement concerning the mirror.

You could also put a small recording device on one of the mirrors. It won't block the mirror enough, so you can see the entire thing. Or get two really big mirrors. Stand in front of it, and you can still see the rest.

 

[Ekit]

I think time is infinite. Time will always exist in some form.

 

[grimsprice]

YOu didn't come to the conclusion that the universe isn't expanding?

MAYBE INFINITY IS GETTING LARGER.

But Infinity by definition is endless, So it can't get larger.

Listen to Lawrence Krauss explain it.

Go to the exact 1 hour mark...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo

 

[The Austin]

Well, infinity is real in terms of numbers, but otherwise, I suppose you have a point.

I thank you for the braingasm.

 

[Darth Caelum]

Agreed concerning the Universe. But, since we did block the mirror, then doesn't it mean that The Mirror's loop WAS infinite?

If we cannot see the loop without blocking it, than can we say that there is a loop? There is no way of getting proof that it is infinite.

So you're saying that since we CAN'T see it, then that means there CAN'T be a loop. That since we can't see it, then it HAS to be that there is no loop? It can go both ways you know, there MIGHT be a loop, just that we can't see it. I believe the question you pose is a Logic Fallacy friend.

Also, you're Mirror metaphor was a bit flawed from the beginning. Just get a large enough mirror and you can be present in those loops. Without breaking the Loop as you're saying.

 

[Darth Caelum]

Agreed concerning the Universe. But, since we did block the mirror, then doesn't it mean that The Mirror's loop WAS infinite?

If we cannot see the loop without blocking it, than can we say that there is a loop? There is no way of getting proof that it is infinite.

So you're saying that since we CAN'T see it, then that means there CAN'T be a loop. That since we can't see it, then it HAS to be that there is no loop? It can go both ways you know, there MIGHT be a loop, just that we can't see it. I believe the question you pose is a Logic Fallacy friend.

Also, you're Mirror metaphor was a bit flawed from the beginning. Just get a large enough mirror and you can be present in those loops. Without breaking the Loop as you're saying.

EDIT: Sorry, I didn't think my original post got through.

 

[Frozen Donkey Wheel2]

YOu didn't come to the conclusion that the universe isn't expanding?

MAYBE INFINITY IS GETTING LARGER.

But Infinity by definition is endless, So it can't get larger.

Ugh, you just killed the joke. Thanks.

OT: I don't think we should assume anything yet. Do we actually know for a fact that the universe is expanding at all? Because if we don't know that for sure, then it could be infinite.

Also, if it isn't, then my next logical question is: What's outside of it? If it has limits, that means that there has to be something outside the limits, otherwise, there wouldn't be limits. It can't just end. Here, let me try to explain this better:

There is a field. It, of course, has limits. The limit could be wall, or simply dirt instead of grass. Either way, there is something outside the field that is different from the field. Otherwise, there would just be more grass, making the field infinite. So, in order for the universe to be finite, there would have to be something outside it.....right? Otherwise, there would just be more space, and it would be infinite, right?

(If I'm wrong, don't blame me. It's 12:59am here. Whoops, now it's 1am even. I should probably go to bed.)

 

[Abedeus]

Time is an infinity. And numbers are infinite. Just because there is no physical way in which we can write numbers with jillion digits, doesn't mean they don't exist.

There are even numbers so large, you would need to start writing them at one edge of the universe, each letter big as a 2x1cm square, and you probably wouldn't be able to finish it at the opposite edge of the universe. You could probably fill the entire universe with letters as big as photons and that would still be a number.

And then there could be a bigger number.