A discussion about poverty

[JRslinger]

Eliminating poverty is one of those lofty ideals promoted by the left. The problem is that the intellectuals will change the definition of poverty. In a western nation today a family in poverty may be described as lacking a college education, not being able to afford health insurance, having no car or a crappy car, not having much leisure money. Such a family is still living much better than an impovershed family of the early 20th century which would lack a high school education, have no car, no electricity, maybe no indoor plumbing. So even though the standard of living is much higher than it used to be, the leftists still feel sorry for people who live in modern 1st world "poverty"

The left wing response I expect to this is, "there's much room for improvement". Yes there is, but I think it makes little sense to feel sorry for people who have running water, electricity and often enough food to get fat.

I'm going to make a guess that even in western Europe where poor people have guaranteed government supplied health care, leftists still find reasons to feel bad for them. As far as I can tell right now this is solely a matter of the "poor" people having less leisure money. Is there something I'm missing here?, besides a heart?

 

[Timotei]

Even if this is supposed to be an educated discussion, I can forsee this not ending very well as this is a very sesitive spot for many. And if it doesn't, good for the thread.

OT: There will always be someone who thinks even the fortunate are unfortunate. There for sure are a few people who think that Oprah is poor and unfortunate.

 

[Souplex]

If we shoot all poor people into the sun then we eliminate poverty! If we shoot all rich people into the sun then we eliminate the ruling class that oppresses the poor.
I need a cannon and a sun or professional help; whichever comes first.

 

[Frankydee]

I would label those people I see sleeping on city benches covered in newspaper as impoverished. I've known a few families that have no jobs and live pretty decent lives living off of welfare checks who have fairly nice housing, a running car, running water, electricity and cable. I wouldn't really call that poverty.

Maybe laziness.

(Not trying to apply this to all welfare drawing folks, just those who have the means and strengths and perfectly healthy bodies to to able to fend for themselves, yet refuse to make an effort to find employment)

 

[Littlejib]

Maybe they see these people as poor because their the poorest people they see. If their view is just limited to what they see these people would be the poorest people they know.
I live in a place that is considered well off, you don't see people who are poor, the only ones you feel sorry for are the ones that have to save up for ages to get a boat.
You see poorer people on tv but it's hard to feel sympathy for people you don't know, it's on tv, it's not here, it's not real. The real problem is that we keep the poor separate, everyone likes changing their own environment for the better.

 

[Hallow'sEve]

The Bible says there will always be poverty, I can understand why too. So although I don't think it's great and that we should do everything we can to help, it's ultimately unsolvable.

 

[AssButt]

It is my belief that the left has a symbiotic relationship with poverty and so the left does not actually want the problem to go away. They simply make too much money off of it while telling the poor they have no chance for a better future unless they keep the leftist elite in power and subsist on meager handouts.

 

[Kuchinawa212]

I think there was an economic study done that about 67% of people would give up money to see someone else worse off. Which I think means most anyone with a bit more cash then someone else will use to just make the other man suffer more. So I doubt we can ever abolish poverty. Someone will always find a way to make a poor poorer and rich richer

 

[Good morning blues]

The OP is describing the lower middle class. When referring to "poverty," the left is referring to the lower classes and the homeless.

 

[PurpleRain]

Snip

Two things:
1) What's with the leftist attack run? I thought this was a person to person opinion. I understand right wing folk are more capitalism based, but I've known many people with a right wing political mind set that wants to abolish poverty.

2) What type of poverty are you on about?! Global? Social? You're very vague. I assume you're talking about western social poverty, and in that case, get over yourself. You think not helping people is good?

 

[Alex_P]

You want to know how "the left" defines poverty?

Lifted from John Scalzi [http://whatever.scalzi.com/2005/09/03/being-poor/]:

Being poor is knowing exactly how much everything costs.
Being poor is getting angry at your kids for asking for all the crap they see on TV.
Being poor is having to keep buying $800 cars because they're what you can afford, and then having the cars break down on you, because there's not an $800 car in America that's worth a damn.
Being poor is hoping the toothache goes away.
Being poor is knowing your kid goes to friends' houses but never has friends over to yours.
Being poor is going to the restroom before you get in the school lunch line so your friends will be ahead of you and won't hear you say "I get free lunch" when you get to the cashier.
Being poor is living next to the freeway.
Being poor is coming back to the car with your children in the back seat, clutching that box of Raisin Bran you just bought and trying to think of a way to make the kids understand that the box has to last.
Being poor is wondering if your well-off sibling is lying when he says he doesn't mind when you ask for help.
Being poor is off-brand toys.
Being poor is a heater in only one room of the house.
Being poor is knowing you can't leave $5 on the coffee table when your friends are around.
Being poor is hoping your kids don't have a growth spurt.
Being poor is stealing meat from the store, frying it up before your mom gets home and then telling her she doesn't have make dinner tonight because you're not hungry anyway.
Being poor is Goodwill underwear.
Being poor is not enough space for everyone who lives with you.
Being poor is feeling the glued soles tear off your supermarket shoes when you run around the playground.
Being poor is your kid's school being the one with the 15-year-old textbooks and no air conditioning.
Being poor is thinking $8 an hour is a really good deal.
Being poor is relying on people who don't give a damn about you.
Being poor is an overnight shift under florescent lights.
Being poor is finding the letter your mom wrote to your dad, begging him for the child support.
Being poor is a bathtub you have to empty into the toilet.
Being poor is stopping the car to take a lamp from a stranger's trash.
Being poor is making lunch for your kid when a cockroach skitters over the bread, and you looking over to see if your kid saw.
Being poor is believing a GED actually makes a goddamned difference.
Being poor is people angry at you just for walking around in the mall.
Being poor is not taking the job because you can't find someone you trust to watch your kids.
Being poor is the police busting into the apartment right next to yours.
Being poor is not talking to that girl because she'll probably just laugh at your clothes.
Being poor is hoping you'll be invited for dinner.
Being poor is a sidewalk with lots of brown glass on it.
Being poor is people thinking they know something about you by the way you talk.
Being poor is needing that 35-cent raise.
Being poor is your kid's teacher assuming you don't have any books in your home.
Being poor is six dollars short on the utility bill and no way to close the gap.
Being poor is crying when you drop the mac and cheese on the floor.
Being poor is knowing you work as hard as anyone, anywhere.
Being poor is people surprised to discover you're not actually stupid.
Being poor is people surprised to discover you're not actually lazy.
Being poor is a six-hour wait in an emergency room with a sick child asleep on your lap.
Being poor is never buying anything someone else hasn't bought first.
Being poor is picking the 10 cent ramen instead of the 12 cent ramen because that's two extra packages for every dollar.
Being poor is having to live with choices you didn't know you made when you were 14 years old.
Being poor is getting tired of people wanting you to be grateful.
Being poor is knowing you're being judged.
Being poor is a box of crayons and a $1 coloring book from a community center Santa.
Being poor is checking the coin return slot of every soda machine you go by.
Being poor is deciding that it's all right to base a relationship on shelter.
Being poor is knowing you really shouldn't spend that buck on a Lotto ticket.
Being poor is hoping the register lady will spot you the dime.
Being poor is feeling helpless when your child makes the same mistakes you did, and won't listen to you beg them against doing so.
Being poor is a cough that doesn't go away.
Being poor is making sure you don't spill on the couch, just in case you have to give it back before the lease is up.
Being poor is a $200 paycheck advance from a company that takes $250 when the paycheck comes in.
Being poor is four years of night classes for an Associates of Art degree.
Being poor is a lumpy futon bed.
Being poor is knowing where the shelter is.
Being poor is people who have never been poor wondering why you choose to be so.
Being poor is knowing how hard it is to stop being poor.
Being poor is seeing how few options you have.
Being poor is running in place.
Being poor is people wondering why you didn't leave [New Orleans].

-- Alex

 

[Stalk3rchief]

You want to know how "the left" defines poverty?

Lifted from John Scalzi [http://whatever.scalzi.com/2005/09/03/being-poor/]:

-snip-

-- Alex

The sad part is, I've experienced at least half of those.

 

[Tron-tonian]

I was gonna add something, but Alex_P said it better then I could. You've won yourself an internet, good sir.

As for the original poster - call your local social services office and find out how much welfare you'd get if:
1. it was just you.
2. You and a spouse.
3. You and 2 kids.

Now go and draw up a budget. Include everything - food, shelter, utilities, transportation, health care, clothing. *Everything.*

Then ask yourself why anyone would *choose* to live on that amount.

 

[Worgen]

time for some fire

at least this thread makes it easier to ID the right wing freaks who would like to harvest the poor for organs, as long as they arnt embryos. After all

 

[TaborMallory]

A life without poverty is a life inside a fantasy town. However, measures can be taken to weed out the lazy ones by eliminating support and coaxing them to get jobs. Sure, we're in an economic depression right now, but who's most at fault? The idiots who bought shit with money they didn't have.

Tl;dr version: Eliminating support and coaxing job-getting will lead to simultaneously lessening poverty and eliminating the government leeches. Double win.

EDIT: After having read Alex's post, I can see that this post might sound crude and disrespectful, so here's a disclaimer:
Why are they poor in the first place? Is it...
-Their location (war, invasion, etc.) / Government (oppressive?) / inability to get a good education due to previous lack of funds? Then they have my sympathy.
-For any other reason, it's their fault. They don't have my sympathy.

 

[Alex_P]

It is my belief that the left has a symbiotic relationship with poverty and so the left does not actually want the problem to go away. They simply make too much money off of it while telling the poor they have no chance for a better future unless they keep the leftist elite in power and subsist on meager handouts.

You know what? You're right: the American Democrats and various European "leftist" movements have certainly relied on the underprivileged for electoral capital.

The "right" does it, too, though.

The "Southern strategy" that's been driving America's Republican party for something like forty years now is all about finding people who feel left behind by American privilege and prosperity and playing to their fading hopes and deepest fears. During the civil rights era, a lot of economically disadvantaged people stood behind the GOP because they felt threatened by oppressed blacks gaining new rights and opportunities. Nowadays, the anti-immigrant furor is based on exploiting the same feelings of being supplanted by people who are "supposed to" be beneath you.

And all that stuff with deathers and birthers and teabaggers, what's that all about? The exact same thing: "Oh, you've been left behind! You could be well-off if not for all these other people! Let us create a cult of victimhood that exults in exclusionary American purity and pursues internal cleansing by any means necessary!"

Democrats offer handouts to the poor. Republicans offer them scapegoats. Which is better?

-- Alex

 

[FallenJellyDoughnut]

You want to know how "the left" defines poverty?

Lifted from John Scalzi [http://whatever.scalzi.com/2005/09/03/being-poor/]:

-snip-

-- Alex

The sad part is, I've experienced at least half of those.

Me too. Even the mac and cheese one. (I was five)

I try to atleast add something humourous to a depressing thread. Scary thing is, I was listening to "Working Class Hero" When I read that list.

BTW I live in Australia and it pisses me off that Aboriginal/Islanders get paid $50 JUST TO GO TO SCHOOL! What about me? Just because I'm white it doesn't mean I'm not dirt fucking poor. not poor anymore thanks to savings and hard work... THANKS GOVERNMENT(!)

"Theres room at the top, they're telling you still. But first you must learn how to smile as you kill"

 

[Skeleon]

The most important thing for us "leftists" (or, at least, for me) is that everybody has the same chances. That means healthcare and a basic standard of living and, most importantly, education (not only school but university, too) based on your actual achievements, not on money or connections. This is still a big problem because poor but intelligent people still have severely worse chances of attending university than their richer (and sometimes even dumber) counterparts. To me, it's not about "leisure money" (I love how "rightists" always promote "leftists" want people to be lazy) but about equality of chances no matter your family's socio-economic standing which is NOT fulfilled today.

EDIT:

The Bible says there will always be poverty, I can understand why too. So although I don't think it's great and that we should do everything we can to help, it's ultimately unsolvable.

The Bible also states that a rich man getting into heaven is more unlikely than "a camel passing through a needle's eye" and giving to the poor is good and that the lowly will inherit the Earth and all this other "pro-poor"-propaganda.

 

[demmalition1]

I was listening to Otis Redding's "A Change is Gonna Come" while reading Alex's post, it was very moving...

In reguards to the "leftist" notion, doing something to help the poor is better than lying to them about the issues. I had a friend 2 years ago that was so poor they couldn't get a t.v., they only had a 8 year old radio for entertainment. I felt so bad for them because the Dad could not find work on account of his h.s. degree (couldn't afford to go to a comm. college) and thus continued the cycle. If he got sick, they would for all purposes become bankrupt and evicted from their 4 room house.

How the hell isn't the left looking out for them? Healthcare reform? EFCA? US climate bill (too weak imo...)? Capping c.e.o. salaries at $500k/yr (as opposed to $2bil/yr. at Cigna (might be someone else))?

In reguards to poverty, one was to solve it is to reduce the worker disparity from 95% to around 40% (or, the top 1%'s purchasing value as compared to the --% of the rest of the country).

I am sorry if I come off strong here, I just have many personal experiences with this issue.

 

[Rolling Thunder]

*Lights cigar*

The issue here is, however, quite simple. We despise taxation. We hate it. I know I do - working just above the minimum wage and seeing 25% of your paycheque vapourised into nothingness is not a pleasant sensation.

And we naturally dislike the lazy. Whether they're the idle rich, or the idle poor, we hold them both in contempt and disregard, as we do not like to see others standing idle, while we work.

Now, combine the elementary deduction that at least part of my taxes, are going to supporting the unworking poor, and we find the reason for the sheer anger towards them. We also dislike the idle rich, but the issue with that dislike is that we know we have no justification for doing so - they have earned that right to idleness, and we secretly know that we too desire that idleness - in essence, our dislike of them is based on jealousy.


It becomes particularly irksome when the idle poor are blatantly, jaw-stoppingly idle. I speak not of people who are forced down by misfortune. I speak of chavs, and their idiot kind around the world. Slack-jawed, idle, ignorant people, caught up in a culture of benifits and langour. They fail at life, and they force that failure onto their children. Many of then are violent as well, costing us yet more money and making us feel unsafe - and the most insulting, stinging blow they deliver is the fact that their very existence was financed by that quarter of your hard-earned wealth!



*Removes cigar from mouth*

Such if life.