A few thoughts about January 6, 2021

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Silvanus

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Except that it isn't, and now you're denying reality because you want to make an argument against me politically. See?
"Denying reality", yeah, okay.

So you're saying Shellenberger believes that climate change does play a role, but doesn't make it worse?

What's the role, then? Climate change makes it better? Changes some disasters for others of the exact same severity? What?

It's bleeding obvious that the scientists' objection was to the claim that it doesn't make them worse. Which, by the way, is completely unsupported drivel. They just chose some wording that (to any reasonable person) is functionally identical, because no other possible interpretation makes sense in the context.
 
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tstorm823

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So you're saying Shellenberger believes that climate change does play a role, but doesn't make it worse?
He may even believe climate change negatively impacts natural disasters, but that isn't what his phrasing says. It's like if you're driving in a car going forward, and someone said "the engine isn't pushing us backwards". That doesn't mean the engine can't push you backwards, but you aren't going backwards in the first place, so the engine isn't pushing you backwards. Like, if he had a made a specific counterfactual statement like "climate change isn't making any natural disasters worse than they might have been had climate change not been occurring", then there might be an argument that it's a wrong statement even with natural disasters not getting worse. But that isn't what he said.
 

Silvanus

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He may even believe climate change negatively impacts natural disasters, but that isn't what his phrasing says. It's like if you're driving in a car going forward, and someone said "the engine isn't pushing us backwards". That doesn't mean the engine can't push you backwards, but you aren't going backwards in the first place, so the engine isn't pushing you backwards. Like, if he had a made a specific counterfactual statement like "climate change isn't making any natural disasters worse than they might have been had climate change not been occurring", then there might be an argument that it's a wrong statement even with natural disasters not getting worse. But that isn't what he said.
This is tortuous logical acrobatics.

"Worse" obviously means "worse than it would otherwise have been". That's universally how its understood in the absence of specific other comparisons.

"Climate change is not making natural disasters worse" is obviously, obviously, the same as saying "...climate change is not making natural disasters worse.... than they otherwise would have been".

It's literally the only interpretation that makes sense.
 
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Hawki

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On the subject of climate change and natural disasters:

-Natural disasters have become worse in the sense that the events are more intense (e.g. hurricanes are hitting harder)

-Deaths from natural disasters have plummeted over the 20th century (this applies globally)

Neither of these facts contradict each other. We can agree (I hope) that the fact that we're less vulnerable to nature than ever isn't an excuse to not act on climate change.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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One of the many things I hate most is when we have a problem, spend vast amounts of resources mitigating the problem, and then have people say "well it must not be a problem because I'm ignoring how much time, talent, effort, and resources it took to mitigate the casualties of the problem"

Meteorological prediction and warning systems are one of the greatest public services we have. We really shouldn't downplay or privatize them
 

Dirty Hipsters

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One of the many things I hate most is when we have a problem, spend vast amounts of resources mitigating the problem, and then have people say "well it must not be a problem because I'm ignoring how much time, talent, effort, and resources it took to mitigate the casualties of the problem"
It's literally the same attitude as anti-vaxxers. We basically got rid of the measles because of the measles vaccine, so now middle aged suburban house-wives are preventing their kids from getting vaccinated because measles isn't a big deal and they don't know anyone who has ever gotten it. And then their kids get measles, and then they somehow spin it into being everyone else's fault.
 
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tstorm823

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" In summary, it is premature to conclude with high confidence that increasing atmospheric greenhouse gas concentrations from human activities have had a detectable impact on Atlantic basin hurricane activity "
"Worse" obviously means "worse than it would otherwise have been". That's universally how its understood in the absence of specific other comparisons.

"Climate change is not making natural disasters worse" is obviously, obviously, the same as saying "...climate change is not making natural disasters worse.... than they otherwise would have been".

It's literally the only interpretation that makes sense.
That isn't universally how its understood. It's usually understood as "worse than how it was previously". The relationship is between different points of time, not the counterfactual of what would have happened had the thing not made it worse. People don't generally speak in terms of philosophically dense hypotheticals as often as they compare things at different times.
 

Silvanus

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That isn't universally how its understood. It's usually understood as "worse than how it was previously". The relationship is between different points of time, not the counterfactual of what would have happened had the thing not made it worse.
I'm trying quite hard not to facepalm at the moment.

To get this straight: you believe Shellenberger is saying that natural disasters are not worse than they were in the past? Or that they are, but that this is not attributable to climate change?

Both positions would be monumentally, transparently stupid. I'm just trying to see which one you're imagining.

People don't generally speak in terms of philosophically dense hypotheticals as often as they compare things at different times.
You know who do research into the impact of phenomena by comparing the situation to a null scenario? Scientists.
 

tstorm823

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I'm trying quite hard not to facepalm at the moment.

To get this straight: you believe Shellenberger is saying that natural disasters are not worse than they were in the past? Or that they are, but that this is not attributable to climate change?

Both positions would be monumentally, transparently stupid. I'm just trying to see which one you're imagining.
" natural disasters aren’t getting worse. "

Which is not monumentally stupid, as Kwak was so kind to accidentally point out:
" In summary, it is premature to conclude with high confidence that increasing atmospheric greenhouse gas concentrations from human activities have had a detectable impact on Atlantic basin hurricane activity "
 

TheMysteriousGX

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" natural disasters aren’t getting worse. "

Which is not monumentally stupid, as Kwak was so kind to accidentally point out:
" In summary, it is premature to conclude with high confidence that increasing atmospheric greenhouse gas concentrations from human activities have had a detectable impact on Atlantic basin hurricane activity "
This doesn't say natural disasters aren't getting worse, it says that it's slightly too early to say that these particular disasters getting worse is caused by greenhouse gas emissions specifically.

Pretend there's a rash of gun crime somewhere. Your statement would be analogous to saying, "no there isn't more gun crime, this study says that the gun crime might not be caused primarily by Glock 19s".
 

Silvanus

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" natural disasters aren’t getting worse. "

Which is not monumentally stupid, as Kwak was so kind to accidentally point out:
" In summary, it is premature to conclude with high confidence that increasing atmospheric greenhouse gas concentrations from human activities have had a detectable impact on Atlantic basin hurricane activity "
Do you recognise how the second statement there doesn't even go a fraction of the way towards fulfilling the first? It is the universal scientific consensus that natural disasters are increasing in likelihood, frequency, and severity.

....Also: you strangely chose to dispute that he claimed that they weren't getting worse than they otherwise would have been. So, how exactly is the above statement materially distinct? Am I supposed to accept that natural disasters are no worse than they used to be, but also worse than they would otherwise have been?

Face it: if you claim that "X has not made Y worse", you are by definition claiming that "Y would have been no worse without X". That's literally the only interpretation that makes sense, since you are necessarily claiming that X has had no negative impact on them.
 

tstorm823

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Do you recognise how the second statement there doesn't even go a fraction of the way towards fulfilling the first? It is the universal scientific consensus that natural disasters are increasing in likelihood, frequency, and severity.
No, no it isn't.
 

XsjadoBlayde

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Titstorm trying to invent a debate that no longer exists within the scientific community is just more proof we need to hurry up and return him to the portol to opposite dimension he clearly plopped out of.

Also it's a known tactic called narrative wedging, as deployed and admitted by such players as the Discovery Institute, and now certain anti-vaxx lobbying groups under something called HART, funded in the UK...



But usually a lot of money and influence are behind these fraught efforts. No such hope here however.
 

tstorm823

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Titstorm trying to invent a debate that no longer exists within the scientific community is just more proof we need to hurry up and return him to the portol to opposite dimension he clearly plopped out of.

Also it's a known tactic called narrative wedging, as deployed and admitted by such players as the Discovery Institute, and now certain anti-vaxx lobbying groups under something called HART, funded in the UK...



But usually a lot of money and influence are behind these fraught efforts. No such hope here however.
So, you're just going to deflect to entirely different topics about things I haven't said? Got it.

Anybody want to take a stab at making the argument "natural disasters are getting worse" outside of vague claims that scientific consensus says so?
 

crimson5pheonix

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So, you're just going to deflect to entirely different topics about things I haven't said? Got it.

Anybody want to take a stab at making the argument "natural disasters are getting worse" outside of vague claims that scientific consensus says so?
"Vague claims that experts who study this and have reams of research saying so by showing credible links between general warming and specific events."
 

Kwak

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Anybody want to take a stab at making the argument "natural disasters are getting worse" outside of vague claims that scientific consensus says so?
In accordance with the basic laws of thermodynamics, as Earth absorbs energy from the sun, it must eventually emit an equal amount of energy to space. The difference between incoming and outgoing radiation is known as a planet’s radiative forcing (RF). In the same way as applying a pushing force to a physical object will cause it to become unbalanced and move, a climate forcing factor will change the climate system. When forcings result in incoming energy being greater than outgoing energy, the planet will warm (positive RF). Conversely, if outgoing energy is greater than incoming energy, the planet will cool.
...
Feedback: Amplifying Initial Forcings
Climate drivers can also trigger feedbacks that intensify or weaken the original forcing. For example, forcing from increased greenhouse gases also increases evaporation, which increases water vapor in the atmosphere and intensifies the forcing from greenhouse gases.

If we stabilize the anthropogenic climate drivers that are currently increasing the radiative forcing of the atmosphere, Earth’s energy balance and climate will eventually reach a new state of equilibrium where equal amounts of energy are transferred into and out of the system; when this will occur remains an open question.

-
The NAO index, which is based on sea level pressure fluctuations over the north Atlantic in the 300-y control run of this model, only shows a moderate increase within the 240-y scenario run, so that its long-term trend does not exceed the variability of the control climate before the end of the simulation. In contrast, the steadily growing storm track activity over northwestern Europe already surpasses the standard deviation defined from the control run after about 160 y. This effect is associated with a change of the NAO pattern. A determination of the centres of action for subsequent 10-y periods based on empirical orthogonal functions shows a systematic northeastward shift of the NAO’s northern variability centre from a position close to the east coast of Greenland, where it is also located in the control run, to the Norwegian Sea.





So far, all we’ve managed is to document here is what we don’t know for sure yet. But we do know there is extra energy in the system now, so could it have any other effects on tropical storms? Here, the science is far less equivocal, and there is a broad consensus that storms are increasing in strength, or severity. This attribute, called the Power Dissipation Index, measures the duration and intensity (wind speed) of storms, and research has found that since the mid-1970s, there has been an increase in the energy of storms.

Recent research has shown that we are experiencing more storms with higher wind speeds, and these storms will be more destructive, last longer and make landfall more frequently than in the past. Because this phenomenon is strongly associated with sea surface temperatures, it is reasonable to suggest a strong probability that the increase in storm intensity and climate change are linked.
 
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happyninja42

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Wow, tstorm has derailed what...7 of you all into a rant about climate change in a thread about the capital assault? That's some grade A misdirection on his part. It's really kind of funny, watching the one side of this "discussion" since I have him ignored. All of your posts currently boil down to "You don't know what the fuck you're talking about." Seriously though, climate change is so far afield of a political thread about violent domestic terrorists.
 

BrawlMan

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Wow, tstorm has derailed what...7 of you all into a rant about climate change in a thread about the capital assault? That's some grade A misdirection on his part. It's really kind of funny, watching the one side of this "discussion" since I have him ignored. All of your posts currently boil down to "You don't know what the fuck you're talking about." Seriously though, climate change is so far afield of a political thread about violent domestic terrorists.
Well said sir. Let's get the strut back on track. Would everybody do each other a favor and please just ignore tstorm for now on? Nothing of value ever comes with getting in an argument with him.




 
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