A few thoughts about January 6, 2021

Recommended Videos

Gordon_4

The Big Engine
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
6,787
6,045
118
Australia
Being a person who owns like 2 long guns and really doesn't do hotels, how the fuck do you sneak an armory into a hotel room?! Guns are big. Ammo is heavy. Its pretty conspicuous to just be walking in and out of the lobby with gun cases and boxes of rattling ammo.
If I had to take a (Hollywood inspired) guess; large suitcases with the longer guns partially disassembled. Ammo in a separate bag. Because I’ve never seen a metal detector or X-ray system at a hotel and you can show up with as many bags as you like.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,660
978
118
Country
USA
If I had to take a (Hollywood inspired) guess; large suitcases with the longer guns partially disassembled. Ammo in a separate bag. Because I’ve never seen a metal detector or X-ray system at a hotel and you can show up with as many bags as you like.
It's probably simpler than that. Most hotels, once you've checked in and have your key card, allow swipe-in access to side doors, which often open directly into the staircases. And most people use the elevators, so just check in with only your bag of clothes, park next to the side door, and you could carry fishing nets full of dead chickens into a hotel room with a low chance of anyone seeing you.
 

Dirty Hipsters

This is how we praise the sun!
Legacy
Feb 7, 2011
8,802
3,383
118
Country
'Merica
Gender
3 children in a trench coat
Being a person who owns like 2 long guns and really doesn't do hotels, how the fuck do you sneak an armory into a hotel room?! Guns are big. Ammo is heavy. Its pretty conspicuous to just be walking in and out of the lobby with gun cases and boxes of rattling ammo.
Hotels don't track your comings and goings. Once you've checked in they aren't going to notice if you took 2 bags up to your room or if you carried up 15 bags over the course of the day. Your standard suitcase can probably hold 10 rifles, and you can fit all the ammo for them into a single (very heavy) suitcase. If all your suitcases are on wheels I can easily see someone being able to get 100 rifles into a room by themselves no problem.
 

SilentPony

Previously known as an alleged "Feather-Rustler"
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
12,060
2,477
118
Corner of No and Where

Those good ol' pro-demoracy Republicans.
I mean I think its pretty clear that for Republicans a democracy is a real hinderance to them staying in power. They can't realistically kill all the people they don't want to vote, so they just make sure "those" people can't vote.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,660
978
118
Country
USA

Those good ol' pro-demoracy Republicans.
Lilvender Bolton, the black Democratic chair of that red county's election board, says they don't have the resources to keep all those precincts open, and says more people signed the petition to keep them open then actually voted in the last election. I'm inclined to agree with her, as 7 precincts is a lot to manage for a county with fewer people than 1average square mile of the City of Lancaster, PA.
 

Agema

Overhead a rainbow appears... in black and white
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,917
7,080
118
Lilvender Bolton, the black Democratic chair of that red county's election board, says they don't have the resources to keep all those precincts open
Then maybe they need more resources, or another way of voting.

Elections should be about facilitating voting. Closing polling stations and therefore making more disadvantageous or difficult to vote (for instance travel problems, or congestion at polling stations, time taken away from work and loss of earnings, etc.) is de facto taking away people's vote. Clearly there have to be some limits to how much money can be spent on running elections, but excessive thrift is undemocratic.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,660
978
118
Country
USA
Then maybe they need more resources, or another way of voting.
The latter is going on all over the country, including this county, and is notably ignored by the critics of the consolidation.
 

Agema

Overhead a rainbow appears... in black and white
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,917
7,080
118
The latter is going on all over the country, including this county, and is notably ignored by the critics of the consolidation.
Strikes me a great deal of what's been going on over the country is a great deal of "consolidation" of any form of voting. Or to use a term less misleadingly euphemistic than consolidation: "restriction".
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,660
978
118
Country
USA
Strikes me a great deal of what's been going on over the country is a great deal of "consolidation" of any form of voting. Or to use a term less misleadingly euphemistic than consolidation: "restriction".
It's almost as though major news and media entities consistently coordinate to paint Republicans as evil, and have found "voter suppression" to be an effective angle for demonization.
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
13,054
6,748
118
Country
United Kingdom
While this is a shitty pick (no doubt about that), it is worth clarifying that she's donated far more to the Democratic Party than the Republican Party, and was only nominated by Trump as a half-assed attempt at bipartisanship.

...although, the fact that she donated to both Dems and Reps is cause for pause in itself. Suggests she doesn't actually care about the principles or the platforms, and just wants to purchase goodwill (or have favours owed).

Eh, I just mean that it's slightly off-target to describe her as "GOP donor" without that qualifier. More accurate to call her totally unprincipled. Not an improvement, obviously.
 

Agema

Overhead a rainbow appears... in black and white
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,917
7,080
118
It's almost as though major news and media entities consistently coordinate to paint Republicans as evil, and have found "voter suppression" to be an effective angle for demonization.
It's also just true.

One can make the case that novel ways to facilitate voting have emerged and that ensuring the security of these new systems is reasonable. However, news media aren't lying that Republicans measures focus a great deal more on limiting and shutting them down than constructively addressing concerns or otherwise trying to make them work well. Or even that many of their supposed security measures - which may potentially make it harder to exercise a right to vote - combat forms of fraud that are so rare as to be insignificant, which strongly demands we question what the real rationale is.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheMysteriousGX

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
13,054
6,748
118
Country
United Kingdom
It's also just true.

One can make the case that novel ways to facilitate voting have emerged and that ensuring the security of these new systems is reasonable. However, news media aren't lying that Republicans measures focus a great deal more on limiting and shutting them down than constructively addressing concerns or otherwise trying to make them work well. Or even that many of their supposed security measures - which may potentially make it harder to exercise a right to vote - combat forms of fraud that are so rare as to be insignificant, which strongly demands we question what the real rationale is.
It's also noteworthy that these efforts focus disproportionately on minority neighbourhoods, as was the case with the recent spate of station closures we were discussing. For all the talk about how the new centres might be better placed, or provide more freedom if you can go to any station in the county... these factors were true statewide, yet the closures were intensely focused on minority neighbourhoods, regardless of population growth. And it wasn't marginal; the trend was egregious.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,660
978
118
Country
USA
It's also noteworthy that these efforts focus disproportionately on minority neighbourhoods, as was the case with the recent spate of station closures we were discussing. For all the talk about how the new centres might be better placed, or provide more freedom if you can go to any station in the county... these factors were true statewide, yet the closures were intensely focused on minority neighbourhoods, regardless of population growth. And it wasn't marginal; the trend was egregious.
It's neither focus nor coincidence. The Voting Rights Act of 1965 contained a provision that required certain states and regions to get federal approval to any change in elections. There is, certainly, an amount of sense in that, as particular states were discriminating against the black population pretty egregiously, and having people oversee changes is the simplest way to avoid that. But the bureaucrats in DC weren't just cautious about changes, they were oppositional to them, for half a century. Do you appreciate how much population centers have moved in the last half century? How big a mess voter rolls can get after decades of neglect? The law froze the south's elections in the year 1965, with exceptional focus on minority areas, which you would never guess are exactly the places that had trouble functioning every election. It's almost as if we've gotten better at running elections since 1965, and refusing to allow changes was a bad idea.

Texas effectively wasn't allowed to reorganize voter precincts in minority areas for 48 years. Now that they can, it's neither surprising nor racially motivated that they are. If you see sudden drops in minority votes, feel free to start complaining, but turnout for racial minorities has increased in each general election in Texas since Shelby County vs Holder, so if it isn't just reasonable election management and it's all actually voter suppression aimed at minorities, it's shockingly incompetent voter suppression.
 

XsjadoBlayde

~ just another dread messenger & artisanal kunt ~
Apr 29, 2020
3,702
3,824
118

Rabbit hole. Never ends.

As Capitol attack investigators dig into efforts by state-level Republicans to send Congress “alternative” slates of 2020 presidential electors, they're zeroing in on the involvement of Donald Trump's White House and campaign operations.

As presidential electors gathered in December 2020 to affirm Joe Biden’s victory, the Republicans who would have been Trump’s electors in several states that Biden won gathered anyway to cast unofficial votes. In five of those states — Arizona, Nevada, Wisconsin, Michigan and Georgia — those electors then signed certificates claiming they were “duly elected and qualified” to represent their states.


Those certificates were then mailed to the National Archives and Congress. Now the Jan. 6 select panel is looking deeper at the Trump network's role in that strategy, which Democrats increasingly say may have amounted to a crime.

“We want to look at the fraudulent activity that was contained in the preparation of these fake Electoral College certificates,” said Rep. Jamie Raskin (D-Md.), a member of the Capitol riot committee. “And then we want to look to see to what extent this was part of a comprehensive plan to overthrow the 2020 election.”

The select committee is expecting a new tranche of documents from the National Archives related to its false-electors inquiry, according to its chair, Rep. Bennie Thompson (D-Miss.). The Archives has confirmed it's compiling materials on the matter, Thompson told reporters, describing the apparent involvement of the Trump political or governing apparatus in the certificates as a “concern.”


Rep. Pete Aguilar (D-Calif.), another panel member, said the submission of the electoral certificates — claiming to be legitimate — was a “dangerous precedent.”

The false-electors push was well-known at the time, but it’s drawn fresh scrutiny amid indications that the select committee has received documents from multiple states shedding new light on the efforts. Michigan’s top prosecutor, Attorney General Dana Nessel, recently suggested she’s been investigating the submission of illegitimate GOP electors for a year.

“This is a crime. This is election fraud,” Nessel told reporters recently. “And it's many other crimes, as well; both, I believe, at the state and federal level.”


Like Nessel, some members of the Jan. 6 select committee say the signed documents could have broken the law.

“I would hope that the full extent of the law was used to prosecute anyone trying to falsify any documents, including those,” said Rep. Elaine Luria (D-Va.), another Jan. 6 panel member, who underscored that she is not sure of the status of any state-level investigations into the matter.


Under federal law, after states certify their presidential balloting, electors for the winning candidate are required to meet in their state capitals on the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December. In 2020, that was Dec. 14. While Democratic electors in key swing states met to cast their votes, Republicans who would have been electors had Trump won gathered as well.


Those sideline pro-Trump gatherings, organizers said, were meant to preserve legal options in case Trump prevailed in any of his doomed court cases. Trump’s attorney, Rudy Giuliani, organized the efforts, according to The Washington Post and CNN.

In addition to the five states where GOP officials claimed to be the true electors despite Biden’s victory, Trump backers in Pennsylvania and New Mexico also signed certificates. But those Republicans hedged, saying their votes should only be counted if Trump prevailed in his legal challenges.

Nevertheless, New Mexico’s attorney general has referred the matter to federal prosecutors and continues to review potential violations of state law. The Pennsylvania attorney general's office said the documents didn’t meet their standard for forgery because of the caveat that their signatories invoked

POLITICO also obtained records indicating that National Archives investigators pursued a case of potential fraud against a second slate of would-be Trump electors in Arizona who identified themselves as “sovereign citizens.” An Archives inspector general official said the agency declined to comment on “ongoing” work.

The decision to deploy illegitimate electors highlights the deliberation of Trump's allies in their attempts to keep his effort to reverse the election alive. Top Trump White House officials at the time — including adviser Stephen Miller — made clear they were tracking “alternative” slates of electors in real time.

And several state parties said the Trump campaign played a role in directing them to hold their elector meetings, describing it at the time as a way to preserve the defeated president’s legal options as he fought doomed court battles to overturn the results.

“While President Trump’s campaign continues to pursue legal options for Wisconsin, Republican electors met today in accordance with statutory guidelines to preserve our role in the electoral process with the final outcome still pending in the courts,” Wisconsin GOP Chair Andrew Hitt said at the time.

When those court battles failed, other Trump allies — like attorney John Eastman — suggested that then-Vice President Mike Pence, tasked with presiding over the counting of electoral votes on Jan. 6, 2021, could introduce the unofficial pro-Trump electors to cast Biden’s victory into doubt.


Nessel, in recent interviews, has said the evidence points toward a coordinated effort to convene GOP electors in multiple states Trump lost and have them declare themselves authentic electors for that state. She noted that the forms the electors used in different locations were nearly identical, from their wording to their fonts.


“It's clear to me that this was not independent, rogue actors that were unknowingly doing the same thing as they had done in many other states,” she said.

Republicans at the time emphasized that their decision to hold unsanctioned elector votes had a precedent. In 1960, three Democratic electors from Hawaii met to cast votes for John F. Kennedy, even though the election results showed that Richard Nixon had narrowly prevailed in the state. With a recount underway, those pro-Kennedy electors met to cast their votes anyway and submitted those results to Congress and the National Archives, the clearinghouse for elector certificates.

Hawaii’s recount ultimately reversed the outcome, showing Kennedy had won by fewer than 200 votes, and the state’s governor then certified the Democratic slate as well. On Jan. 6, 1961, the Democratic electors were the ones counted by Congress, with Nixon, then vice president, presiding.

Arizona GOP Chair Kelli Ward later pointed to that episode when describing her decision to deliver GOP electors to Congress in 2020.

In a statement this week, the Wisconsin GOP also pointed to Hawaii's electors in 1960 — and emphasized that it had received legal advice to assemble GOP electors, in case Trump found a way to prevail.


In the chaotic days after Trump’s defeat, a handful of other GOP electors indicated in interviews that they saw merit in the emerging strategy to send alternative electors to Washington in an effort to undermine Biden’s victory.

Michigan GOP elector Meshawn Maddock said at the time that she had been researching legal options. “What I might want to do can be completely different from what we are legally capable of doing, does that make sense?” she said in an email.


Ultimately, Maddock joined a slew of other Michigan Republicans to sign the unofficial certificates. Maddock, now co-chair of the Michigan Republican Party, and other GOP electors also joined a lawsuit by Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Texas) seeking to empower Pence to unilaterally prevent Biden’s election. (The lawsuit failed, and Pence declined to do so.)

A Georgia GOP elector, Cathy Latham, initially refused in late 2020 to say whether she would endorse sending alternative electors to Washington. “Bahahaha you think I’m going to respond to you?” she said in an email. “You don’t know GA law. Read the Constitution.”

When pressed, she replied, “I am [a] Republican elector for Trump. I serve at the pleasure of the President and the GAGOP. I will serve when called and directed to cast my vote for Trump.”
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,660
978
118
Country
USA
After the election has taken place, and therefore necessarily after the result has been verified and a Republican has been boosted into office through voter suppression?

Sounds awfully convenient for Republicans.
It's funny, after the recent talk about the importance of evidence, that now we hit a situation where evidence is on my side, and your suggestion is that it is bad to even allow the evidence to exist.