A Journey, A Revelation, And Some Nudity

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quiet_samurai

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Hmmm, clever. Because lying to people on the internet has certainly never been done before, ESPECIALLY where gender is concerned. And exploiting one of the most desperate and antisocial demographs of people out there is nothing new. But it's just the fucking internet, bragging about your achievement online is on par with bragging about winning the special olympics... it doesn't really count and at the end of the day everyone's still a retard. The only thing I think that sucks is that the people that thought they actually met you IRL, in fact didn't.
 

Ultrajoe

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Apr 24, 2008
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quiet_samurai said:
Hmmm, clever. Because lying to people on the internet has certainly never been done before, ESPECIALLY where gender is concerned. And exploiting one of the most desperate and antisocial demographs of people out there is nothing new. But it's just the fucking internet, bragging about your achievement online is on par with bragging about winning the special olympics... it doesn't really count and at the end of the day everyone's still a retard. The only thing I think that sucks is that the people that thought they actually met you IRL, in fact didn't.
For the last time, this thread is not about me gloating, if you feel defeated or 'beaten' then you have your own adequacy issues to deal with. The point of this is to discuss, and i'm sick of saying this, gender dissonance. I've said it quite clearly. If I wanted to gloat or if i had wanted to exploit or hurt people I could have written this much more cuttingly or abused my adopted gender for much more malevolent ends than I did. Neither of these has happened because that isn't the point. I'm not here to brag, because I didn't accomplish anything in the way of mocking people or putting them down, that was never the point.

I know this isn't a new phenomenon, the idea was never to 'trick' people, that was just one of the side-effects, and suggesting i'm petty enough to place worth in such base ribbings is a but harsh. This is using my experiences to serve as a basis for a discussion I am starting to think will never occur.

This wasn't a troll, a prank, an attack or a ruse, it was a learning experience. The fact that it was amusing to watch and fun to pull off isn't a matter or bragging, it's part of the anecdote I have written, part of of which concerns how much I regret not meeting these people in person.
neuromasser said:
Ultrajoe said:
Let's be friends.
I don't want fake friends :'(
I'm not a fake friend. While I changed my gender I didn't cease to be myself, any friendship people get from me is certainly genuine, regardless of things like this. Many of my friends here will tell you as much (I would hope).
 

LuzGutierrez

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Well, then, let's see. It really wasn't for too long, and thanks to my brother coming along, people noticed who I was pretty quickly there after, but the experience still happened.

Let's see, it has happened multiple times, you see, I have a twin-brother, an almost identical twin brother, goes by the nickname Tito. He and I look almost identical, next to the fack that I have (small) boobs, a more girlish figure than him, and a slightly higher (almost in destinguishable ina crowd) voice than his, while he is more masculine, etc. We have the same length hair (ever since we were little we had something like a promise where we would try to look similar, because we were, and have been, so close), and we are just about the same hieght, give our take a few millimeters. I, also, tend to hijack his T-shirts, more as a comfort statement, and because I don't really like my girl shirts (they aren't as cool as his), and even sometimes his pants (what can i say, guy pants can be more comfortable than girl pants). Now to move on to the experiences.

The First Case

First time it happened, it was at our Local Game Store (LGS), where we usually play Warhammer 40K. I had come in with our my brother and I's Tau army, and I was wearing our signature Grey Jacket (it's more of a sweater, but we've labeled it our grey jacket). I was putting my army on the side, waiting for someone to come in and play, watching the others play their game of Fantasy, and that's when it started. "Hey, TITO, what's up." Came a voice from behind me. It was one of our friends, and Ork player, his name escapes me right now, but he had mistaken me for my brother Tito. It may have been the fact my hair was up in a pony tail (how he usually wears his), that I was wearing our grey jacket, hiding my figure for the most part (I'm not the most...well endowed, girl in my family, might I add) or that I was wearing his pants again, but he honestly thought I was him. Given that our voices sound pretty similar, I tried to play along, see what would come of this. Nothing really happened, he asked to play a nice friendly game of 40K, and we had some fun. Our conversation was different, to say the least. You see when I play with guys, they tend to be nice, laugh at the jokes I make about the game, give me lots of attention, and play 'nicer' to me, than they do when they play against Tito. Like one thing that stuck out was that he kept asking where I was, and I just gave the same reply, something along the lines of "Oh, she's a home, probably sleeping or drawing, like I always make her do." (Which he does, but that's a different story). It almost felt like he was looking for me for some reason. Sometimes I would make a silly crack, like how my Tau were shooting their guns *pyew, pyew* at the oncoming tide of green that would inevitably smash in their poor faces. Best I got from him was a brief snicker.

At the end of the game, I turned out to be the victor. This is where I noticed the biggest change from when I play men, he pretty much belittled his army, and took the game a little more seriously than I did, or any man did whenever I play with them. It felt like his pride was on the line, when in reality I was just playing to roll my dice and see what funny antics I could pull from the game. After that game, I didn't feel confident, or comfortable for that matter, "cross-dressing" or pretending to be my brother, so I packed my Tau and drove home. Told Tito, and he had a good laugh.

The Second Case

Right now, I can only remember one more instance of this, and it was at class. In between classes I like to go hang out with these guys who like to play Magic, and enjoy having discussions that eventually wikipedia from Dinosaurs to the physics of dropping pillars from space onto pirate ships would work. There I came in, Grey Jacket again, hair up in a pony tail, with a mission. See how long I could trick everyone into thinking I was Tito. I came with one of his Magic decks, in order to play anyone who thought I was him. It worked, at first, I managed to get everyone there to think I was him. There weren't very many people there, 5 guys and 2 girls. The girls were having a discussion, while two of the guys were having one of their wikipedia discussions, and the other three were either on laptops or reading some textbook. I said hi to everyone, and they were all like, "Oh, hello, Tito!" Score! It worked...for now. So I began to listen in on the wikipedia discussion, since the other 3 didn't seem like talking, and Tito tends not to just walk up to people and just ASK THEM what they're reading, like I tend to do. So they go on for a good 5 - 10 minutes, forget about what, but then another guy walks in and asks if anyone wants to play Magic. I try to act as timid as Tito is when people ask, and ask if I could play, and they go sure. So we start the game, and nothing much happens. There was only one visible difference, the fact none of them directly said anything to me, as they usually do to Tito, unlike myself, but then again, I wasn't doing what I usually do and get myself in the conversation (trying to act like timid ol' Tito, as opposed to my usual semi-extroverted self).

That's when the plan suddenly when down hill. In comes Tito with his girlfriend, all hey guys, what's going on, like. Then that's when everyone stared at me, then him, then me again. Everyone's like, "Who on Earth are you?" and Tito goes, "Luz, what are you doing?" I reply with a simple, "Just doing an experiment, FOR SCIENCE!" and everyone looks at me funny. Then the day went on as if nothing happened, although I think I got a few suspicious stares in there.

Those are the two instances this has happened, that I can recall. I'll try to remember more, but right now it's 1 AM and I still need to draw another page for Tito. Sorry if they are long, brought out, and full of random bits of info that may not be relevent, and sorry they aren't as neat as how Ultrajoe's were. Hope you enjoy reading them, I like telling stories of my life, makes me feel like a story teller...and important sort of, if you know what I mean...
 

hypothetical fact

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Ultrajoe said:
hypothetical fact said:
Another well writen blog, kudos. The problem with these blogs is that people who aren't related to the event or just don't care about your life find nothing special in them. Yeah you pretended to be a chick, as has half the internet and the majority of female mmo characters. If there is something to discuss here please enlighten me; but for now these blog posts just come off as a frivolous use of a public forum to talk about yourself..
Ultrajoe said:
NOTE: This thread exists to make genuine observations and prompt actual discourse in the readers. If you wish to post along the lines of 'I'm such an individual and don't give a shit' then you're individual in the sense that god will find a unique hell for your ass to suffer in for wasting our time.
I mean, I put this right at the top, so people who were disinterested could not waste their time reading my thread. I don't force people to read my threads, any more than people are forced to read 'Solid Snake V Freeman: The Victor?', it's a public forum where these things are traded back and forth. I wrote this inspired by my experiences to discuss the dissonance between the female and male online experiences, a point I spelled out quite clearly despite you not being able to find it. The fact that people are ignoring that point in favour of discussing my ethics suggests that people do take an interest.

The thing is that you're assuming I give a damn about the people who don't care. I wrote this, as with my Sydney Funnel Web article, to entertain and inform the people who do care, who are involved. And I have included relevant information for the rest of you, to boot, about the unecessary gender divide. I suppose what i'm getting at is that you marching in here to firmly plant your opinion of disinterest is a thousand times more pointlessly disruptive than this thread existing, such comments contribute nothing. I don't want to debate this with you because this thread doesn't exist to showcase the indifference of various readers, or even to showcase myself, it exists as an anecdotal dicourse on the issue at hand, it's how I write things.

Comparing it to a blog and sneering at it for your own applied classifications is not only incorrect but does severe injustice to the value of blogs or stories like these, to serve as repositories of human experience and allow the discussion of ideas through them. People don't read this to hear about me, I didn't wite it to talk about me, assuming as such is an insult to me and my intelligence. I wrote it to share and discuss the things I experienced, not my experience, the fact that the latter is proving more popular seems, however, to shoot whatever claim you had to my frivolity in the foot. Off-topic exists to discuss things that interest it's denizens, discussion wouldn't turn towards the personal aspect of this story if it didn't interest them, even if I intended otherwise.

The point is there, it's already had posts discussing it, if you want to talk about it then by all means go right ahead, if you want to call me a slimy git then by all means go ahead, but what's not important is the relevance or target audience in the thread. We don't need to go Meta on the thread, as it's only making it harder to focus on the 'point' you seem so eager yet inable to locate.

Let's be friends.
I won't sneer at your definitions nor the semantics of trying to differentiate between "I wrote it to share and discuss the things I experienced, not my experience". I will however jump at your claim that my post is less useful than this thread or that putting a header telling everyone that doesn't like reading about you to sod off as helpful. At the end of the day this personal post is taking space on the front page and if more people chose to talk about the things they experienced but not their experience; it is all we would see, as everyone is experiencing something at any moment. Not to mention your vague title and incredibly vague opening paragraphs make your header moot. How am I to judge whether I want to read your topic when it is as broad as "a journey, a revelation and some nudity." the last of which was an outright lie.

I will not be as spiteful as I was during your last thread as this time you are only posting a personal blog which makes light of how you took advantage of an extremely desperate demographic. Your last thread was out right demonizing Australian wildlife which yes, they are dangerous, but they are also endemic to Australia and suffer horrible environmental policies. Not to mention the shock tactics you used with your pictures when the most deadly creature on the planet is the common mosquito.

If this topic is about gender dissonance as you say, then a more straight foward approach would yield fewer accusations and comments about your personal life which is a theme to this thread, and more comments relating to the thread. Enclosing it was still well written and you may have a future as a creative non-fiction writer.
 

Syntax Error

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I was quite shocked to find out that UltraJoe is actually UltraJosephine from a few months back.

Hmmm, I wonder how much of this is true? I'll just assume you're an asexual transcended being from a higher existence, then.
 

Ultrajoe

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Apr 24, 2008
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hypothetical fact said:
At the end of the day this personal post is taking space on the front page and if more people chose to talk about the things they experienced but not their experience; it is all we would see, as everyone is experiencing something at any moment.
Actually you're right here, my explination was a little vague, what I meant was: This experience, which I am relating to you, brought about my curiosity on a number of issues, here are my thoughts on them. It isn't about me, but to deny the root of my curiosities would be silly. My point is not to tell you about myself, but to tell you about these issues and share what I recently learned about them and hopefully get some of yours opinions or experiences in return.

The reason I called your post unhelpful was that it wasn't about said issues, or even said experiences, it was a comment at the existance of the thread. It's like discounting an essay because of the paper it's printed on, my format shouldn't dull my content. If you wanted to say there is no content, then that's fine, but that wasn't what you were doing.

hypothetical fact said:
I will not be as spiteful as I was during your last thread as this time you are only posting a personal blog which makes light of how you took advantage of an extremely desperate demographic. Your last thread was out right demonizing Australian wildlife which yes, they are dangerous, but they are also endemic to Australia and suffer horrible environmental policies. Not to mention the shock tactics you used with your pictures when the most deadly creature on the planet is the common mosquito.
Given that the entire point of that thread was to deliberately exaggerate the lethality of those animals for entertainment purposes (and many people were entertained), and to try and aid the conservation of them by endorsing a fantastic zoo, i'm not going to deny your claims. Of course I demonized them, that was the basis of the joke, it's a well established comedic technique. Of course I used big pictures of spiders (they weren't that scary, it's just a damn spider), I was trying to make the Sydney Funnel Web out to be worse than Alien, and I included information reassuring people that it was an exaggeration at the bottom.

Keep in mind, i'm not offended or frustrated with you, i'm just confused as to why you have such a problem with my writing style, when it is being used to bring forward relevant issues in an entertaining manner. If you have a problem with me, then that's understandable, because i'm not everyone's cup of tea, but you're trying to say this doesn't belong here because it's in the style of an anecdote? Why is this an issue? Would you have preffered a spartan and basic introduction to the topic?

hypothetical fact said:
If this topic is about gender dissonance as you say, then a more straight foward approach would yield fewer accusations and comments about your personal life which is a theme to this thread, and more comments relating to the thread. Enclosing it was still well written and you may have a future as a creative non-fiction writer.
Sorry, I posted before you added this part. I must admit the style has yielded some unwanted responses, but I can't deny my personal experiences, as they serve as the point of my wanting to bring this to light. A straightforward approach would be... missing the point, in a sense, despite being more to the point.

Syntax Error said:
Hmmm, I wonder how much of this is true? I'll just assume you're an asexual transcended being from a higher existence, then.
That's all I ask.
 

quiet_samurai

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Ultrajoe said:
quiet_samurai said:
Hmmm, clever. Because lying to people on the internet has certainly never been done before, ESPECIALLY where gender is concerned. And exploiting one of the most desperate and antisocial demographs of people out there is nothing new. But it's just the fucking internet, bragging about your achievement online is on par with bragging about winning the special olympics... it doesn't really count and at the end of the day everyone's still a retard. The only thing I think that sucks is that the people that thought they actually met you IRL, in fact didn't.
For the last time, this thread is not about me gloating, if you feel defeated or 'beaten' then you have your own adequacy issues to deal with. The point of this is to discuss, and i'm sick of saying this, gender dissonance. I've said it quite clearly. If I wanted to gloat or if i had wanted to exploit or hurt people I could have written this much more cuttingly or abused my adopted gender for much more malevolent ends than I did. Neither of these has happened because that isn't the point. I'm not here to brag, because I didn't accomplish anything in the way of mocking people or putting them down, that was never the point.

I know this isn't a new phenomenon, the idea was never to 'trick' people, that was just one of the side-effects, and suggesting i'm petty enough to place worth in such base ribbings is a but harsh. This is using my experiences to serve as a basis for a discussion I am starting to think will never occur.

This wasn't a troll, a prank, an attack or a ruse, it was a learning experience. The fact that it was amusing to watch and fun to pull off isn't a matter or bragging, it's part of the anecdote I have written, part of of which concerns how much I regret not meeting these people in person.
neuromasser said:
Ultrajoe said:
Let's be friends.
I don't want fake friends :'(
I'm not a fake friend. While I changed my gender I didn't cease to be myself, any friendship people get from me is certainly genuine, regardless of things like this. Many of my friends here will tell you as much (I would hope).
I discussed, that was my opinion of it all and I discussed it. And I don't believe you when you say you don't want people on here to show some sort of negative emotion about it, you knew damn well beforehand some poeple here wouldn't like it. You might not have set out to piss people off, you just didn't care if you did. Furthermore, a part about holding a discussion (especially on a public thread) is that sometimes people are going to say things you are not going to like to hear, no matter your intentions.
 

Ultrajoe

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quiet_samurai said:
I discussed, that was my opinion of it all and I discussed it. And I don't believe you when you say you don't want people on here to show some sort of negative emotion about it, you knew damn well beforehand some poeple here wouldn't like it. You might not have set out to piss people off, you just didn't care if you did. Furthermore, a part about holding a discussion (especially on a public thread) is that sometimes people are going to say things you are not going to like to hear, no matter your intentions.
I'm not asking them to not feel, i'm asking them to show restraint. This thread is about the issue, not my story, that's just the medium. That's why I'm trying to stem posts about myself, because this really wasn't meant to be an ego-trip. I'd love them to say things I don't want to hear, but i'd also love for those comments to be about the point of the thread.

However, you did say something that gunuinely made me think, and I don't honestly have a response.
quiet_samurai said:
You might not have set out to piss people off, you just didn't care if you did.
I can't answer that, you've struck a chord. I didn't consider my indifference to be more harmful than malevolence, but perhaps I should.
 

theklng

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...and it still wasn't as a good as the the illusionist movie. good on you for trying, i personally couldn't care less for whoever you are or pretend to be. it's all about what you can do.
 

quiet_samurai

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Ultrajoe said:
quiet_samurai said:
I discussed, that was my opinion of it all and I discussed it. And I don't believe you when you say you don't want people on here to show some sort of negative emotion about it, you knew damn well beforehand some poeple here wouldn't like it. You might not have set out to piss people off, you just didn't care if you did. Furthermore, a part about holding a discussion (especially on a public thread) is that sometimes people are going to say things you are not going to like to hear, no matter your intentions.
I'm not asking them to not feel, i'm asking them to show restraint. This thread is about the issue, not my story, that's just the medium. That's why I'm trying to stem posts about myself, because this really wasn't meant to be an ego-trip. I'd love them to say things I don't want to hear, but i'd also love for those comments to be about the point of the thread.

However, you did say something that gunuinely made me think, and I don't honestly have a response.
quiet_samurai said:
You might not have set out to piss people off, you just didn't care if you did.
I can't answer that, you've struck a chord. I didn't consider my indifference to be more harmful than malevolence, but perhaps I should.
Yeah indifference can be much worse becausae it's so sneaky. When one is molevolent they know it. And I didn't take your little...trick... personal, I was just saying alot of people are because you have quite a pressence here. I don't think of you any differently.
 

LuzGutierrez

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Labyrinth said:
LuzGutierrez said:
Shakespeare called, he says he likes how you adapted 12th Night into your life.
Wow, I never looked at it that way. That's sort of...funny, when looking back on it. Although My twin hasn't been lost with the ages, as Viola's was, and I was just messing around, to see if people would actually mistake me for a guy. Although that tends to be my major turn off for guys, they tend to feel a little awkward around me, because I look so much like Tito. It's kept me single for the 19 years of my life.
 

Labyrinth

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LuzGutierrez said:
Wow, I never looked at it that way. That's sort of...funny, when looking back on it. Although My twin hasn't been lost with the ages, as Viola's was, and I was just messing around, to see if people would actually mistake me for a guy. Although that tends to be my major turn off for guys, they tend to feel a little awkward around me, because I look so much like Tito. It's kept me single for the 19 years of my life.
Oh, you'll find your Orsino.. maybe.
 

LuzGutierrez

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Labyrinth said:
LuzGutierrez said:
Wow, I never looked at it that way. That's sort of...funny, when looking back on it. Although My twin hasn't been lost with the ages, as Viola's was, and I was just messing around, to see if people would actually mistake me for a guy. Although that tends to be my major turn off for guys, they tend to feel a little awkward around me, because I look so much like Tito. It's kept me single for the 19 years of my life.
Oh, you'll find your Orsino.. maybe.
If he doesn't find my brother attractive too/want to "just be friends" because of my brother first. That seems to be my flaw, but I guess when we move out of our house, and go our separate ways, I MAY find my Orsino. Although, I'll still miss the days of the old, play video, and tabletop, games with my brother, and talking to him about the most randomest things ever.

But I digress.

Here's one that I remember, albeit vaguely. One time Tito and I were out at the mall, and we were having anotherone of our heated "Pokémon discussions" and this guy walks up to us and says, "You boys are still playing that game? I remember when my son first got that game, blah, blah, blah..." and I was like, do I REALLY look that masculine? Although, what can I say, I've heard, countless times people call Tito "Miss" and "Ma'am" at work no less. I guess we both either give off that androgynous vibe, or we are just SO SIMILAR we are identical brothers AND sisters. Heh...
 

Ultrajoe

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LuzGutierrez said:
I guess we both either give off that androgynous vibe, or we are just SO SIMILAR we are identical brothers AND sisters. Heh...
I always get mistaken for my twin as well, despite our utterly polar personalities and appearance. Though my mind got turning on the nature of male competition when I read your game store story, as it's something I didn't consider when I wrote my piece or played the part of a woman, I never entered into any competitions or games. I wonder if I would have noticed anything different, or if my own male behaviour would have rendered my female label null and void. One to ponder, certainly.
 

LuzGutierrez

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Ultrajoe said:
LuzGutierrez said:
I guess we both either give off that androgynous vibe, or we are just SO SIMILAR we are identical brothers AND sisters. Heh...
I always get mistaken for my twin as well, despite our utterly polar personalities and appearance. Though my mind got turning on the nature of male competition when I read your game store story, as it's something I didn't consider when I wrote my piece or played the part of a woman, I never entered into any competitions or games. I wonder if I would have noticed anything different, or if my own male behaviour would have rendered my female label null and void. One to ponder, certainly.
Well, whenever I play against a male human, next to Tito of course, they tend to act like i said, laugh at my jokes, play "nicer" than they would against Tito, try to seem funny, act nice, talk about sometimes the most RANDOM things, that I think they think I find interesting or something, and they don't really take the game as seriously as then do with Tito. While when I watch people play against Tito, they tend not to listen or laugh as much to the jokes he makes (we both tend to play ANY game for the sake of playing as opposed to winning or losing. We would rather have fun than be the ultimate victor), tend to not talk much, go all out against him, and take the game WAY more seriously than either of us do. It turns into the man making a big deal of the game, to just playing to win, as opposed to when they play against me, where it feels like they were just trying to humor me.

In retrospect, it sort of feels degrading that they treat me this way. I never actually thought about it this deeply, I was just having fun. Kinda hurts a little. Although when either of us play against the girls there, they tend to act toward us like the guys act toward Tito, don't care about our jokes, don't talk as much, and play all out, like it's a serious game or something. Kinda silly, if you think about it.

I guess it's more of men tend to play against men as if it were a competition, while men will play against women to try and act nice? I donno, I'm an Applied Comp. Sci. (Video Game Design) Major, not a sociology major.
 

Ultrajoe

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TheNecroswanson said:
Labyrinth said:
As for those wishing nudity, can you not see that you have it already? Before you is Ultrajoe, naked of pretence, bare in his ungodly armour. And no, you can't unthink that. Ever.
Sorry, no compromises.
I promised nudity. My story had nudity. The deal is complete.
 

CoziestPigeon

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Gotta point it out, it's impossible to protrude inward. It would be intrude. Protrude implies outward-ness.