Yeah I assume that system is also responsible for that awesome clashing of swords. Looks and sounds amazing. No doubt it's gonna be well implemented.hanselthecaretaker said:
A look at Sekiro?s skill tree
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It's still very possible, you just need to limit how much tracking the enemy attack do. Demon's soul had limited tracking so you could "dodge" (as in walk away without using the dodge button) most attack fairly reliably. I'm tired of having giant monster spinning around like ballerina when they attack.Dreiko said:
https://youtu.be/UScsme8didI?t=476
Meiam said:
Not thinking tracking as much as literally the entire screen is lava for a split second.
Yeah, they're alright games but whatever I try in any form of entertainment, I try because I feel it has the potential be 8+/10 good. If I'm pretty certain creator can't make something that good, then why bother with their works when I can try out other things I feel have a much better chance at being something special? Video games aren't the only things vying for my free time either as there's board games (which I play at least 3 times a week) and TV that are both in their golden ages so I'm not really going to take a chance on a video game when I feel it has a low chance of being great.hanselthecaretaker said:
Souls combat isn't bad, it's just alright. And that wouldn't be so bad if the game wasn't mainly combat honestly. The combat is really too simplistic and never actually changes from the start of the game either. Plus, From has never learned to implement stamina properly either as it just acts like a DPS-limiter and nothing else. They could just look at Monster Hunter for how to implement stamina that means anything, at least Sekiro doesn't have any stamina.stroopwafel said:
Stamina being an action limiter is it's entire function, it's perfectly well implemented. The point is rather than have a combo that just abruptly end for no reason you go use up stamina that you have to regenerate between attack. Other game run into the problem of not having a limiter (like witcher) where you can just mash attack forever, so for challenge to still exist the enemy either need to be able to arbitrarily cancel your attack attack or enemy can just ignore stun lock (like FF15). By having stamina you force the player to stop attacking after awhile and introduce a lot of small decision, do you use up all your stamina to attack or keep some to dodge/block the next attack? Do you let your full stamina regenerate between attack or do you go as soon as an opening is formed even if your not fully recharged. This then play into the weapon choice, with some consuming large amount and some small. Most combo focused game usually have a right combo for a certain enemy (one is weak to air juggling so you do that, one need the ground pound so you use it), soul game are far more flexible since different player will have vastly different build/equipment, so it's about making your play style work with the different enemy and environmental situation.Phoenixmgs said:
There's a difference between complex and deep, you can have a game with tons of combo and system within system, but usually a few of those are better than all the other one and you just use these one over and over again, but since they had to spread out over so many system each of them is quite shallow (if you watch speed run of game with complex system you'll see they usually ignore 95% of it and just spam cheap attack). By limiting themselves to few system the souls combat does far more with far less.
Good melee combat systems (not Witcher) have specific rules for what breaks and doesn't break enemy "super armor", which dictates enemy staggers so you can't just infinitely mash attack. The problem with Souls stamina is that all you do is mash R1 until you run out of stamina and dodge away (because you just need a sliver of stamina to dodge) and just do it again. If you actually needed a set amount of stamina to dodge, then you couldn't just mash R1 until no stamina and dodge away, just like how Monster Hunter stamina works. You'd actually have to manage and pay attention to your stamina then. After you dodge away after using up stamina, you just have to dodge again, which isn't hard because Souls normal enemies are slow (even Bloodborne) in comparison to other action games so outside of bosses there's really no enemy that even poses a threat to you if you have just decent reactions. The weapons in Souls basically function the same really, you either hit fast for weaker hits or hit slow for stronger hits and I'm guessing the DPS is basically the same regardless of which playstyle you prefer so it doesn't really make much of a difference outside of just pure visuals. I used the Kirkhammer in BB and the hammer portion really only changed visuals with it being cool to knock down an enemy. However, the knocking down of an enemy is completely useless (outside of coolness factor) because the enemy gets i-frames to get up when your character doesn't so what's the point of taking the risk to charge up your attack to knock down an enemy when I can just mash R1 to stun lock everything with zero risk with the short sword of the hammer?Meiam said:
With most action games, the point isn't to speedrun them, it's to rack up more points. Bayonetta at least makes you master the dodge offset if you wanna feel like you're actually good at the game whereas Souls you really don't need to gain really any skill (shields or magic). And, even if you do wanna play the hardest way, you just gotta learn the dodge, which is easier than Bayo's dodge (due to the much faster enemies in Bayo). For me Souls combat doesn't really have much challenge, there's really no different playstyles in functionality (the visuals are really the only change, fast or slow weapons; you block/dodge, then attack, rinse and repeat), and there's no player creativity in the way you fight. Thus, the combat doesn't really satisfy in any area (outside of boss fights) as there's really no challenge nor creativity.
They?re not striving for the same thing though. While I agree that SoulsBorne could be more nuanced and tactical with how different attacks affect a given enemy?s armor type and poise in relation to your character?s energy usage in performing them, the way it feels was always the biggest attraction to me personally. Everything felt more deliberate and significant, from attacking to blocking attacks with a shield, since any basic enemy could kill you if you?re not careful. Plus the physical feedback received from performing even the most basic attacks against an enemy that?s either blocking or has no defense felt rewarding and detailed in a way very few other games have.Phoenixmgs said:
I also just started Bayonetta on Steam (which plays exceptionally well with a DS4), and am definitely having a blast with its much different systems. Learning the dodge offset and how to throw in Wicked Weaves has a very pleasing rhythm to it, as well as the game?s feedback doing a great job of rewarding the player for performing well. I?ve only scratched the surface, but was able to get a Pure Platinum rank sort of by accident, as I really hadn?t understood how the dodge offset or Wicked Weave moves worked yet. But the enemies themselves felt less like obstacles than they did mere combo fodder to practice my moves on.
My point though would be that to me personally each type of game design feels rewarding but in completely different ways. The first time I fought the Phalanx or any latter boss in SoulsBorne and won was as thrilling as getting that Pure Platinum. In SoulsBorne the journey as a lone soul through a harsh, foreboding and brilliantly detailed world is what makes it appealing, just as performing flashy moves from a vast repertoire to get the best rank is in Bayonetta. I appreciate the almost diametrically opposing design choices because that?s what makes each its own.
Launch trailer is here. OMG hype overload. Does this look incredible? Yes it does. Yes it dooooeeeessss!! xD
That boss at the end looks like Cleric beast had sex with an oversized gorilla and made a beautiful baby!! Yaaayy for the monsters!!
That boss at the end looks like Cleric beast had sex with an oversized gorilla and made a beautiful baby!! Yaaayy for the monsters!!
I haven?t see a gameplay trailer this epic since the God of War 3 Vengeance trailer over nine years ago. Dat music at 1:55 put it right over the top. Hype is real, but only if Activision keeps their word about leaving everything in-game up to FROM.stroopwafel said:
More than the gameplay the cutscene stood out to me, it seems like it'll be a lot more story based than previous soul game. Kinda wish there was some UI element in combat, there less cinematic but a lot more representative of the final product. The level verticallity seems really nice.stroopwafel said:
Also poor Nioh, tried to stand out with its setting just to have soul game catch up to it, gonna make it hard for the sequel.
hanselthecaretaker said:
Any combat game should be striving for either challenge and/or pure fun (meaning cool shit you can do and creativity as well). I feel Souls misses on both accounts outside of boss battles. When seeing the trailer for BB when Father Gascoigne hit the player character into the air, I was hoping for a juggle system but, of course, rather grounded vs something like Bayo. It would be hard to land the move that would lift the enemy obviously, then you could get in a single critical hit with the gun being cool to shoot them out of the air for example (vs infinitely juggling since that wouldn't fit Souls). Souls combat really only works with bosses IMO because positioning and tactics can actually matter like not using lock-on so you can hit a specific part. The only reason you actually die to normal enemies is you just lose focus because they are so easy, it's akin to a shortstop booting a routine grounder. For me, normal enemies in Souls just feels like filler and merely delays me from taking part in the good aspects of the games, plus there's really nothing fun or cool you can do with them either.
Bayo will throw some tough normal enemies at you like Gracious and Glorious (tough than most Souls bosses), and the game's combat really shines on the hardest difficulty when Witch Time is disabled.
I partake in things that I feel have the potential to be something great/special. I don't only play games that got say a Metacritic of 80+. In fact, games getting in like the mid to upper 90s means I probably won't like them. I couldn't care less about say a Metacritic score or RottenTomato score or whatever. If something looks to ME that it could be something great, I'll try it out. It's kinda like when everyone was saying Iron Fist season 2 was now decent instead of bad, why am I going to watch it if decent is the best it can be when there's so many TV shows that are far better and I already don't have the time to watch all those? Same applies to games or anything else.Bombiz said:
From has yet to demonstrate they can make a better combat system than Team Ninja so Nioh has that.Meiam said:
You can say the same thing about 90+% of the enemies in more flashy action games too. NPC or PvP Invaders are another exception that are often more fun to fight than normal bosses. The rest are mostly there for initial encounters and soul collection/leveling since you can run past most of them once you know your way around.Phoenixmgs said:
But still, like I said before, the main thrust of the games is exploration and playing with different builds as a result. The lack of balance, tuning or other combat intricacies is mostly due to the multiplayer element, which makes me more than cautiously optimistic that Sekiro is strictly single player and more skill-based vs stat-based. However, there are still plenty of hidden unique strategies for given weapons in SoulsBorne. All it takes is a look at any of the wiki?s to realize. Maybe that?s part of the reason people think the game?s don?t have any strategy is they don?t have everything spelled out in a move/combo menu in-game.
But you can do cool stuff with the "cannon fodder" in the flashy action games so the combat is at least fun, and some of that cool stuff is hard to execute and you can sorta make that your goal thereby giving challenge to the fights. Bringing PvP into anything adds so much more to tactics and strategy. COD is like your most basic FPS (but smooth and refined) and the multiplayer modes are so much different than playing the campaign. I don't play Souls for PvP purposes. Why are all the normal enemies there if they are just for soul collection and leveling when you only level in Souls to keep the game the same? You level in Souls to do more damage because the next dungeon of enemies has more health. The whole leveling aspect doesn't actually change anything, it's just a time-waster in reality. Getting rid of that would only strengthen the core experience, which really is exploration of the world and the world itself. There really isn't builds in Souls, using a huge hammer or using a fast katana just changes visuals of how you kill the enemy it doesn't change functionality, you dodge or block, then attack. It's the same combat either way. The magic playstyle is really poorly done (which is why BB is better for just removing it basically), you just lock-on pressing a button to release damage dealing orbs really.hanselthecaretaker said:
Phoenixmgs said:
If you can honestly claim that all these weapons [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFei6EEuJdKceZ0HWFYnMLrDbNOdiIKeA] and builds [https://darksouls3.wiki.fextralife.com/PvE+Builds] play the same way, then I have a bridge to sell you to all the other games that "dodge or block, then attack" in a more *legitimate* manner.
True, leveling is ultimately a time sink, but there is a such thing as over-generalization, which you really seem to like applying to Souls games for some reason. We're dealing with limits of technology here if you're actually expecting a hammer to physically pulverize a character model's armor/flesh or a katana to slice off limbs/heads. Sure that is certainly a great design goal to strive for, but outside of rare smaller scale examples we're really not "there" yet.
Having said that, your post here along with many others involving this series are so wonderfully full of bias that there really isn't much else to say, as doing so would be a gross exercise in futility.
I haven't played DS3 (only DS1 and BB) but there was no new functionality added by different weapons. I think the biggest alterations to combat by weapons in both those games was the Hunter Axe and Whip in BB as they had probably the widest attack range altering combat the most out of any weapon I recall. Whereas something like Bayo's whip allows you to grab and stay in the air (much easier) and IIRC also makes punish attacks a lot easier. Going back to BB, and I mentioned this previously in the thread, with the power attacks for say the Kirkhammer or Hunter Axe where you can knock down enemies to the ground, there's really no point in even doing that outside of it being cool because the game gives enemies i-frames to get up when the player character isn't afforded such. So that literally only changes visuals and provides nothing different from a functionality standpoint to the player.hanselthecaretaker said:
Leveling should be done to add abilities with the number increases being secondary. If it's just stat changes, then the game really ain't changing one-bit. A strength weapon should stagger more than a finesse weapon. In BB, I can use the short sword of the Kirkhammer to stagger on every hit, but then what is the hammer portion of the weapon for? What's the point of really using the hammer over the short sword and vice verse? I can just point to Monster Hunter with how different the hammer and dual blades play and function. Every weapon has it's own complete moveset and function in combat. I'm sure the slightly different movesets the weapons of Souls have subtleties that make a difference in PvP but they don't in PvE.
I really don't see how there is much bias when I list complete examples of how another game (Monster Hunter) with a very similarly deliberate combat system does things right and Souls does things wrong.
Why is a flashy action game with outrageous move sets still being compared to SoulsBorne? They aren?t even in the same genre.Phoenixmgs said:
The Kirkhammer [https://bloodborne.wiki.fextralife.com/Kirkhammer] has different values depending on normal vs trick form, and no it doesn?t stagger every enemy normally or knock down every enemy tricked.
i-frames on enemy wake ups are presumably to avoid abuse ie chaining viscerals, and the player can use a quick wake up if timing Circle well enough on most knockdowns.
It?s not like MHW [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4YxzeDFObs] doesn?t have its own issues anyways, on top of bad AI, hit detection (on huge bosses no less) that makes DkS2 seem reasonable, crapshoot target lock and often awful balance that favors co-op. Having a deliberately complex combat system also shouldn?t mean it needs to feel deliberately clunky and unintuitive either.
Melee combat games should all share certain tenants regardless of how flashy or unflashy the combat is. Shooters regardless of how realistic or arcade-y they are also follow certain tenants as well. You can compare aspects of games without coming the entirety of both games. A new weapon in a melee combat game should play differently then other weapons or what's the point of adding it to the game? Just like a golfer has different clubs because they all serve a different function. What does it matter if I'm talking about a Souls game or Bayonetta? Plus, I also used MHW's weapon functionality as an example, which has a very similar deliberate melee combat style to Souls.hanselthecaretaker said:
I fully understand that the trick weapons have different values but if the value (that dictates staggers) of the short sword of the Kirkhammer is good enough to stagger every normal enemy, then the hammer part loses what should be its function. It's similar to how a medium shield can block all normal enemy attacks in DS1, which makes the bigger shields basically pointless outside of boss battles.
The fact that MHW has problems (as most games do) doesn't mean the things it does right doesn't matter. It doesn't change the fact that MHW does weapons and stamina better than Souls just because it has bad hit detection. People use lock-on in MHW? And, MHW isn't clunky or unintuitive either, you just have press each button after the animation finishes vs just mashing attack like every other game.
