A lot of negativism towards gaming journalism?

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DudeistBelieve

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I mean I'm of the opinion that all media reviewers are pointless. In the day and age of Youtube and Lets Plays, why the hell do you need someone to break down a game in-depth when you can judge for yourself if your patient enough to wait a week after release.

Not to mention a review on it's own is useless to oneself, unless you happen to know your pallet in whatever movie is similar to the reviewer. I've had a good history listening to Yahtzee, cause I find when this ************ like a game? I end up really enjoying it as well. I doubt I'd have given Hotline Miami or FTL or whatever without his endorsement.

One thing I certainly don't get it people that get so fucking angry when a game they enjoy gets like anything less than a perfect score. Unless you're the fucking game developer and your job is riding on Metacritic scores, just play your fucking game.

I don't think it's right that reviewers get their review copies or get to see movies for free and early than the rest of us. Why suck up to the people who don't want to give your art a fair shake, when the people that are excited and anticipating it have to pay for it?
 

NewClassic_v1legacy

Bringer of Words
Jul 30, 2008
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Saelune said:
Might be cumbersome but I think it would help if reviewers made it clear their base point of view to such games.
I wrote an article that's a joke on a similar premise [http://www.haywiremag.com/features/full-disclosure-remember/] not too long ago. For me, I think if a reviewer fails to identify what about a game they dislike, for pre-existing reasons or otherwise, then it's a bad review regardless of that reviewer's opinion on that genre is. Reviews themselves live largely in a vacuum anyway, as any given outlet is going to have a wide variety of staff writers and freelancers, often a wide variety of editors, whose voices and perspectives all influence the final result of a review. Given that, it's hard to see a review as anything other than a person trying to put to words a feeling on a game. Those words will, almost inevitably, include reasoning for why that genre does or doesn't work.

To disclose whether or not a genre is or isn't someone's cup of tea should be apparent in the review text, with or without disclaimers.

Side note: Neat having a reviewer's pov, since as it kind of supports my point, who says it is as important as what is said.
Sure thing. I'm just one voice in a whole host of freelancers and writers out there. I'm sure these opinions and perspectives could be disputed endlessly even among the professionals, so don't take my word as absolute. After all, I was just some person posting in the User Reviews section a little over two years ago.

erttheking said:
If you're going by that, every single reviewer who ever released a review before a game came out sold their soul. Which I'm pretty sure is the majority of them. Not just game reviewers either, film critics get early screenings.
Also, worth noting, publishers and developers benefit from the buzz generated by review and preview content appearing just days before release. Take note of the amount of Mirror's Edge Catalyst material is circulating, and with the beta release.

Given that, it's just as likely to say the developers, publishers, and PR companies are selling their souls to writers.

Gordon_4 said:
I think a major mistake made here is that we confused 'Entertainment Opinion Writer' with 'Journalist'. I could write a review on a video game I'd played enough times, that doesn't make me a journalist.
There are maybe 5 actual, honest-to-goodness games journalists that I'm aware of. For the most part, I prefer the term "games writer." However, given that this is enthusiast press, sticking too sharply to "journalist" as a title means that there's maybe one person out there who fits both "reviewer" and "journalist" descriptions.

Nothing wrong with the title "entertainment writer," nor is their work inherently less valuable than someone whose job it is to research and report gaming news.

Redd the Sock said:
Honestly, I'm starting to find the defensiveness of games journalists telling. While I can't argue the fanboyish nature to complain people disagree with them, little the typical gaming press puts forward is particularly defensible in and of itself. How often have 9/10s been accompanied by several sizable patches? How often does a franchise favorite seem to get preferential treatment to a new IP (ie: a JRPG with repetitive quests in the same areas is boring, but that isn't a mark against MGS5)? They now fight to not be objective, not make comparison grades, and show any level of favoritism they chose.
The idea of an "objective" review is kind of silly. The only objective metric a game has are things like "this game runs as 30-45 fps on , this game has 10 guns to choose from, this game features a male protagonist with short, dark hair, etc." A review is, by design, an individual's subjective opinion on a game based on a particular play experience. What console that person played on, how long they had to play, their mood when they played, what game they were transitioning from, how much coffee they'd had that morning, and infinite other variables all affect what a person thinks, feels, and says about a game. Likewise, someone who's played a game like Saint's Row: The Third might find the far older Grand Theft Auto III far less palatable, despite the latter being the game that practically invented the genre the former needed to be made. Any review is going to be greatly circumstantial to its environment, so the idea of an objective review is silly. The only objectivity to be found is in facts, which is more or less saying "The best game review is the press release packet."

I can scan the one I got with Animal Crossing: Happy Home Designer if you'd like, but I much prefer my review of it.

The reason writers defend their work against accusations and scorn is because the people who do this kind of work do it for passion. We all care a great deal about games, otherwise each one of us would flee for the hills because this industry is ruthless. Instead, most of us who stick around do so for the love of the craft, and having people accuse it of every possible negative thing is exhausting. The fact that "You should never read the comments." is a regular mantra from the people who started their careers because they wanted to make deeper, more nuanced comments is very telling of the sorts of things one typically sees from a comments section.

I suspect many would view me as lunatic for commenting as thoroughly as I do on my own stuff. Then again, no where else have I ever been rewarded for 5+ hours of work with "he's a mild sociopath."

slo said:
But is there also an obligation to disclose your bias when you feel you might have one? To note where you are comning from when making assertions that might be influenced by things other than the game itself?
Obligation? Not really.

What could one possibly say without delving into a string of possible influences. In the article I link above, in discussion of Remember Me, I shine lights into several corners that probably influenced my personal take on a Capcom-published science fiction game with combat and parkour elements. All of those influences are just as relevant information as how I feel about the genre of game that it is. If memory serves, about 900 words of sheer, end-to-end disclosure about my love of science fiction, corporate governments, Capcom as a publisher, Star Wars, impossible odds, and the copious tropes that color and paint the things I feel about games like it.

Which isn't to say anything about the game itself. The full review text is eight words long.

The reality of reviews is the reviewer is doing their best to make a full, sprawling opinion of something fit into a 600-1,200 word snippet of opinion. The most important things (major mechanics, aesthetic design, soundtrack, bugs, length, etc.) are what command a lion's share of the word count, and any other observation is then weighed against its length. It it worth the extra 15 words to say something like "Character selection is a bit of a drag by the sixth playthrough.", or is that worth omitting because earlier in the review, "Despite the wide variety of total unlockable characters, many players will feel fatigue after their third or fourth game, meaning few will unlock all characters."

Besides, each of these disclosures would naturally fall into discussing the common tropes of its genre. Whether or not someone likes jRPGs, for instance, it should be clear when someone says "The game's combat is a joy in practice, excellently bombastic, and is unlikely to get tired too quickly. The problem is the game seems to take it as a challenge, giving the players a random encounter every fourth or fifth step. Although combat is still fun, wearing through that many battles between story beats gets exhausting, and a player's resolve will fatigue far more through the time it takes to do anything than the combat becoming stale." This kind of comment says nothing about how I feel about this particular RPG genre, but just about anyone should be able to figure out if frequent random encounters is their cup of tea.

While there's nothing inherently wrong with disclosures, a good review should make them unnecessary.
 

Chanticoblues

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I'll admit I have quite a big of negativity towards game reviews, primarily for how highly the average game is thought of, not just in scoring but in its features and concept. I feel like so many reviews are spent talking about what the game is instead of what it means or made the reviewer feel, which are both far more compelling things to me. I also find a lot of reviewers seem to address how a game and its features were marketed which I also don't care about at all.

Famitsu has an interesting setup, where four reviewers contribute to the score, which you think would harbor more varied scores and debate, but even then it can be weirdly synonymous. Skyward Sword got a perfect score. How the hell do four people play that game and all give it a 10?

Tevis Thompson's essay 'On Videogame Reviews' [http://tevisthompson.com/on-videogame-reviews/], which I'm sure some of you have read, is a viewpoint I admire a lot (part 9 onwards might be best if you're just skimming).
 

Dragonlayer

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Dec 5, 2013
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I think the negativity comes from the fact that gaming journalism is seen as a weak imitation of "real" journalism (though after the "Why so many celebrities are dying in 2016" article I read on the BBC the other day, I think we should give even the most lowbrow Metacritic review a second chance). Add to that people having their own political slant and being moved to incandescent fury when the reviewer steps out of line, and you have the perfect recipe for good old fashioned internet rage. Personally, I've always found it curious that people genuinely try to find an "objective" and "neutral" reviewer to talk about their games; I already have an idea of what games I'm interested in, and I check the positive reviews of those to confirm that A) it's got what I like in it and B) it won't explode my PS4 the second I put the disc in.
 

Sigmund Av Volsung

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Dec 11, 2009
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Probably cause there's a divide between reviewers and gamers that has been getting wider over time. Reviewers get their games for free (most of the time) and therefore don't have the same understanding of value that consumers do. A good recent example is Mad Max, a game that reviewers gave a good paddling for being boring and uninspiring, but one that gamers overall liked because it had a good value proposition and decent content for the price.

In my mind, it's a bit similar to the difference between film reviewers and the general public, but the interaction here is much closer. There are far more gamers that are on the level of cinephiles than there are moviegoers en masse. The problem is the value proposition as well as the actual techniques that current reviewers use in their writing. There's a reason Polygon is infamous for being pretentious, because a lot of their staff have a very strange view of what their duty is to the gaming public. Often it seems that it's less to inform and more to ignore the fact that they are essentially judging entertainment in lieu of what is basically sophistry (let's not forget 'Politics in the Phillipines').

Another factor is the events of last year. Agree or disagree with gamergate, but it did unveil a worrying, although not entirely [a href=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLNZFWR0Q8M]unprecendented system employed by journalists.[/a] The problem was more that they had an ingroup/outgroup mentality that eventually resulted in a lot of cronyism and the departure of several well intentioned people (like Greg Tito, who stuck to his principals to the end).

There's also scores. This varies between individuals, but to me, scores are useless. I will use them when I look up metacritic for a new game, but my gaming habits are pretty different to most peoples' anyway. To me, a score diminishes the value of the review as a whole, and going score-free helps engage in an actual dialogue of positives and negatives instead of a token sticker-like figure saying 'good' or 'not good'. Games are large experiences that cost up to $60. They deserve in-depth analysis, and that's why I'll always value people like TotalBiscuit and Rock Paper Shotgun (even if I disagree with a lot of the things they have said in the past) just because they have managed to survive with that format and even reached success. So how does this relate to a bad perception of gaming journalism? Well, scores make it too easy for reviewers. Saying 'I feel this is a 7/10' boils down the experience way too much, and whilst I understand that grinding through games day and night is a pretty thankless and underpaid job, gaming is still a rapidly expanding industry, and along with that industry, there should also be more and more sophisticated ways to examine what it produces. The Escapist used to do weekly articles on the state of gaming and I enjoyed those a lot. To me, they were what the future held, as they worked on establishing dialogue instead of just putting down a number and calling it a day. Scores are one of the reasons I personally dislike gaming journalism.
 

Smooth Operator

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Ya that is where people don't understand what journalism is, journalism is not random hobo with opinions writing nonsense, just as random hobo with a hammer isn't a mechanic.
A world of difference between professional work in a specific field and blind amateur attempts, if you intent to call yourself a professional then you will be held to that standard. If on the other hand your "review" makes clear you have no clue then it is fine.
 

Something Amyss

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Dec 3, 2008
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erttheking said:
Huh. I did not know that. And now I do.

Thanks!
And knowing is half the battle!

XD

slo said:
This question isn't exactly relevant, because the bias is not important at all. What's important is acknowlegement and disclosure.
If a reviewer is tearing a game to bits following his bias it is unjust. If the bias is propetly disclosed and you know what comes into play - that's just another opinion. It is the difference between "I didn't like it" and "I didn't like it but I don't like fighting games in general", or "This game feels confusing" and "I'm terrible at puzzles so this game feels confusing".
It becomes relevant because potentially any baggage can provide such influence.

Such disclosure is also above and beyond what is expected of the media with which I am familiar. Now, I don't know film reviews, but I've done music and the occasional book review. You probably won't see me picking up a pop album (though I do on occasion), but there is ever chance that I will asked to review such an album. I can refuse, but depending on the publication that might mean I miss out on work that week/month (depending on publication). I think like, 90% of the books I read are urban fantasy, but if I am asked to do the latest Steve Berry book (hell, I only know his name because my mom's a fan), I'm probably going to do it. Disclosure is not done nor is it considered necessary. Hell, it's not even demanded by fans of other media. You probably don't know the preferences of the person reviewing any other media.

Almost every complaint about journalistic ethics or reviews I have seen have one thing in common: a demand that games get special treatment that is not only above and beyond the normal review process, but often absurd and prohibitive. Since this is at least the former, let me pose two questions to you:

Do you feel games deserve special treatment?
If yes to the above, why?

Because this seems like a massive case of special pleading to me.

Dragonlayer said:
I think the negativity comes from the fact that gaming journalism is seen as a weak imitation of "real" journalism
Probably because for the most part it is.

The puzzling part is that the solutions seem to take it further into "weak imitation" territory.
 

Dragonlayer

Aka Corporal Yakob
Dec 5, 2013
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Something Amyss said:
Dragonlayer said:
I think the negativity comes from the fact that gaming journalism is seen as a weak imitation of "real" journalism
Probably because for the most part it is.

The puzzling part is that the solutions seem to take it further into "weak imitation" territory.
The puzzling part is that people evidently care so bloody much about completely disregardable opinions. If I read a review I disagree with, I say so in the comments or walk away; I don't scream "CONSPIRACY!!!".
 

inmunitas

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manolocego11 said:
Hey guys, I wanted to talk about something that I've been noticing for a while. There's been a lot of negativism towards gaming journalism like when users are discontent with the score that has been giving to a specific game. I admit I saw a review once here that was the complete opposite of what I thought and went to reddit to discuss and even share some negativism towards the website (I'm sorry escapist people, you have a great website going on) however after thinking twice I realized that the reviewers are people just like us. They are in a way sharing an opinion with more detail.

It's true that there is possibly reviewers that get paid to give good scores and all that but I still think that there shoudn't be so much negativity towards a reviewer that gives a score you don't agree with.
From what I've seen most of the discontent people have with current games journalism has very little to do with reviews and/or reviewers. Arguably disagreement with a reviewers opinion of what they are reviewing is to be expected, and given that so few people even read reviews these days it's hardly a problem.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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Dragonlayer said:
The puzzling part is that people evidently care so bloody much about completely disregardable opinions. If I read a review I disagree with, I say so in the comments or walk away; I don't scream "CONSPIRACY!!!".
Fair enough. I don't read most reviews, and generally go off gameplay vids and the like.

I often make the mistake of operating from the assumption people actually care about the reviews, when I don't think much of anyone does.
 

jklinders

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Sep 21, 2010
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I've been about as critical of games journalism as anyone. But now I'm going to play a little devil's advocate with myself here. There has been a few documented instances where the publisher, website relation seems a little too buddy buddy. The Jeff Gerstmann (sp) event a few years back, Doritiogate et al. all have cast some pretty nasty light on how perverse those relations can get. Let's look at the other side though.

Games are a LOT harder to review than movies. A movie reviewer can give a concise fully constructed well written review of a movie in likely less than a day. That's the time needed to view the screening and take notes during, writing, editing, final draft etc etc.

Best case scenario from a reviewer's perspective on a AAA title is around 12-15 hours to rush through the content. That number balloons to over 40 hours for RPGs even today. That could be up to 4 or 5 12 hour days to play through, take notes, check for bugs write first draft, edit, second draft etc etc. And goddam it when I am playing a game I take breaks on my schedule, fairly sure most folks do, but game reviewers do not have that luxury. That is going to breed a certain level of cynicism. Even if they get an advance copy they need to plow through that shit fast in order to have a day one review out. If their publication does not have a lovvey dovvey relationship with the publishers then they are going to be under even more of a time crunch to get that review out while their opinion is still somehow remotely relevant. Then wash rinse and repeat as you need to get these reviews out fast in order to eat.

Then after all that that have to endure the bitchy whiny opinions of both the hopeless fanboys of the franchise/platform/game studio et al who think you are too hard on it and the those on the other side who ***** at you for liking it too much. I swear two months of this and I would be finding people to break my keyboard over the heads of.

It's not an easy job and it would certainly take all fun out of the hobby. And gamers can be a bag of smashed assholes about things to boot.

All of the above said. Politics, religion and probably gender issues are sure fire ways to piss people off. Everyone knows this and everyone who raises such issues does so these days with full knowledge of what they are doing and why. If politics have a purpose for being involved in the review then i will give it a pass. For example, mentioning that a game set in modern or future times has a misogynistic bent to it (say a female character in a professional environment treated as a sex object and that being presented as OK in universe but probably not, say a pimp slapping his prostitutes around as this would not in all likelyhood be presented as positive), I would probably want to know that. On the other hand, if a game is set in medieval Europe, I could fucking care less if there is major black or female characters. Such people of major influence were very rare in such settings and dropping that opinion in has zero relevance to the game.

Presenting personal politics as a reason for gauging a game this or that is fine. but you are kicking a hornet's nest in doing so and no one can claim ignorance to that. This would mean it is in your best interest to make sure these political things are relevant to the content and not just soapboxxing.

Well, that dragged on longer than expected.
 

JimB

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What is it Yahtzee said in one of his early reviews? "It's worth remembering all reviews are subjective opinions, and my negative opinions shouldn't bother you unless there's a despicable niggling little doubt in the back of your head that maybe you're not having as much fun as you try to convince yourself you are?"
 

hermes

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It is hard to consider reviews as journalism. Even reviewers that I know have issues with that comparison. They are informed opinions, mostly buying recommendations. Nothing more, nothing less. Not that gaming sites don't have journalists working for them on journalism oriented sections, but those are mostly about news or editorials.

As others have said, being defensive or offended about other people's opinions on things you care about, even if it is minutiae, is not new or exclusive to gaming. Reviews have the added problem of being forced into a scored points system, so a lot of complainers will read nothing but the title and the score before complaining, not reading or caring about the reasoning behind those things. At the end of the day, that says more about the people that complains than reviews.
 

Major_Tom

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Jun 29, 2008
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DudeistBelieve said:
I mean I'm of the opinion that all media reviewers are pointless. In the day and age of Youtube and Lets Plays, why the hell do you need someone to break down a game in-depth when you can judge for yourself if your patient enough to wait a week after release.
Pretty much this. It seems like everyone got stuck in 1999.
 

NewClassic_v1legacy

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Jul 30, 2008
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inu-kun said:
1. Except gaming journalism is less "symbiotic relationship" and more "incest", there's ad revenue, the mentioned early reviews, the infamous "reviewer camps". If a site's life is depends on appeasing game companies then the reviews you get are what the companies would want you to hear.

2. But if you don't have someone who actually likes the genre then he'll have absolutely nothing to compare it to and in case of JRPG's will outright hate it for not being his cup of tea, you NEED to have an experience with a genre to talk on it proffesionally.

3. Don't really care about polygon itself, really, the outcry from this behaviour is testement to how much it became widespread.
I'll try to be brief, as I know I can drone overly long.

1. Circular logic. The possibility of it happening proves it happens. By that logic, anything that's plausible is guaranteed. In reality, any income bias will be more felt by advertising departments, and less likely to reach editorial. Further, any freelancer who writes will be very withdrawn from those biases. If their editor makes too much of a stink, that site would be blacklisted by those writers because work conditions would suck. Too many failure points to be widespread silently.

2. One can be experienced with something and still dislike it. Further, a good review should provide reasoning for its biases. "I don't like random encounters, and this game is plagued with them." still gives its reader enough information to know how they should reflect on that type of statement in a review. If that review doesn't work, there will be at least 10+ others from countless other outlets, freelancers, YouTubers, etc. No review can cover all perspectives, so it's up to the reader to pay attention and actually understand the review rather than taking it as gospel. That's the nature of media, not a flaw of reviewers.

3. "Widespread" in what way? There are more games and game outlets than I could read in my lifetime, much less the fact that hundreds generate at least one article a day continuously. I would think this is more a case of confirmation bias, in as far as people now expect the behavior, and they'll see it everywhere strictly because they're looking for it. Opinions like these have existed at least as far back as print magazines of the 90s.
 

CaitSeith

Formely Gone Gonzo
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The problem starts when people read reviews for confirmation bias on games they are playing. No, I take that back. The problem starts when reviews don't meet their confirmation bias and they decide to call out the reviewer (because it's clear that either they know better than the reviewer or the reviewer is a big fat lair).

inu-kun said:
And last, but certinely not least, the "progressiveness" reviewers that decided that a game that doesn't align to their world view should be burned or that they are above the "common" game players (the infamous Polygon Rock Band 4 review).
Wait, isn't that the preview where the guy related more about his woes in that event in Santa Monica and how he disliked those games, than about the game itself. At first it also made me angry that they spent money in sending someone who doesn't even care about music games; but I certainly don't know the details (game journalism is a job, and in any job eventually you have to do something that you don't like to do), and we wouldn't had this TB Masterpiece Theatre [https://soundcloud.com/totalbiscuit/masterpiece-theatre-presents-games-journalism] reading of the article in question. Now I just find it plain hilarious.
 

Areloch

It's that one guy
Dec 10, 2012
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I'd say a large part of it is because journalists - not just gaming - very rarely do any fact checking and instead just curb to clickbait or completely unchecked, unsubstantiated reports and throw them up on the internet to 'get the scoop', which means that most journalistic outlets are very largely just reporting trash. Compound this further by some "journalists"(glorified bloggers) who are convinced that there's not any real difference between an official article/review and an op-ed.

Game journalism also has the added bonus of a bad history of selling out to publishers so it's even harder to believe anything they put out is legitimate.

I mean, here's a fun example how how much un-effort goes into checking anything by a bunch of different places: https://www.reddit.com/r/thedivision/comments/4g6osh/hey_rthedivision_agents_im_sorry/

Someone on reddit did a hoax post about a glitch they found in The Division. No pictures, no video. Not only did the commentors on the original thread eat it up without checking(apparently some people that did try to check and found it wrong got downvoted into oblivion) but then several game news sites reported it flat without verifying anything.

Stuff like that is why games journalism has such a negative impression with people anymore.