Needs More Gay is on Channel Awesome. I don't know about Chez Apocalypse, but I've seen his thumbnail clips in the Channel Awesome rotation for several months now.
A Plethora of Content Producers Leave Channel Awesome
- Thread starter soren7550
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I'm not entirely sure this is a bad thing. Reading Lupa's and Phelous's goodbye messages, it really does seem like they simply weren't popular and that's it. Like Lupa goes on and on about how she couldn't make ends meet and the like, and she sounds really bitter and practically blames TGWTG for it. Yeah, its shitty none of them ever got paid for their crossovers/anniversary filming but at the end of the day if you're not making money from your videos(ads and the like) then people simply aren't watching them.
I personally haven't watched a Phelous or Lupa video in oh...5 years? Something along those lines. And I'm sure they have their fans, but I imagine I'm the rule rather than the exception. I'm not trying to be a dick here, but if videos ain't popular, they ain't popular.
Although it really does seem like TGWTG has a cultist mentality and anyone who doesn't follow the cult is let go. That's actually pretty worrying.
I personally haven't watched a Phelous or Lupa video in oh...5 years? Something along those lines. And I'm sure they have their fans, but I imagine I'm the rule rather than the exception. I'm not trying to be a dick here, but if videos ain't popular, they ain't popular.
Although it really does seem like TGWTG has a cultist mentality and anyone who doesn't follow the cult is let go. That's actually pretty worrying.
Hmm, I wonder whether TitS[footnote]Yes, this is still as amazing as it was when the first person realised it.[/footnote] and Maven will depart Channel Awesome. If so, then I've not much to come back and view. Actually I tell a lie, there's an overload of stuff to watch that, much like Early Access, would require a massive community screening process for me to even consider indulging in.
Plus chances are content producers will have to start on ad-based websites in order to get the following for a Patreon. They could end up staying with said sites unless said sites get ludicrously harsh and unfriendly to employees in a desperate bid to stay relevant.Vault101 said:
I'll admit I was never a huge fan of either Lupa or Phelous's. It's not that I did not like their work, but that too much of it was seemingly the same thing. Constant repetition of a single joke long past its point of amusement. Great if used carefully in limited amounts, but tiresome in abundance. Phelous in particular had this almost "Erkel" vibe going on with his eye rolling shrieking schtick. And Lupa did some great reviews. But I just don't think the audience is there for meticulously tearing through every single episode of Baywatch and nothing else save some shrieky podcasts now and then.Silentpony said:
Now admittedly other peoples tastes will vary. This is just me. I watched some of their stuff, but I could not bring myself to watch ALL of their stuff.
Which brings it round to the other elephant in the room. Yeah I know everyone says that CA's management is awful. That Mike M (whoever he is?) is a basterd, etc etc. And that might very well be true. but that does not change the fact that much of what CA did or did not do were likely based on business reasons. And while we all out here imagine that CA or TGWTG or any of our favorite sites or content providers is simply some band of happy happy crazy people unhindered by real world issues of economics, business and conflicting goals. The truth is at the end of the day these things must function as a business to grow and thrive.
I said this over in the other thread, and it bears repeating here. Everything we are seeing in CA is a fairly normal and expected part of business growth. From where it must successfully transition from a small hobbiest or family entrepreneurial operation to a more formal business. It is a hugely disruptive and destructive moment in a businesses lifecycle. And an often fatal one as many many businesses cannot make that transition and tear themselves apart or cease to provide the product that their customers desire. At the end of the day Phelous, Lupa, Kyle, etc economic needs or goals were no longer the same as CA's. Kyle probably spelled this out better than most in his usual thoughtful classy way.
Couple that with a business that leverages, relies on and gives a voice to a greater percentage of staff and contributors that are frequently coping with their own personal demons of mental health and you get weeks like we have seen. Everyone is looking for a big reason or conspiracy or who is to blame. Honestly it is likely pure coincidence mixed with a little bit of one persons actions causing others to think a little more on their own possibilities. Constant online discussion regarding Patreon has probably led a few to decide individually to strike out on their own. Others may have conflict with where they are. Others may simply be growing up and moving on. CA may simply be making a business decision and clearing the schedule as it moves intoa new year and new content season. You will note our favorite TV shows get cancelled all the time. Ultimately do not expect the same forces to not reappear on the internet in microcosm.
Have to echo this sentiment, I tried phelous a couple of times, but found his style horribly annoying and his "sarcastic voice" was cringe worthy. Lupa I also tried a few times, gave me a few chuckles, but nothing to really write home about and well, the real proof to this is that their patreon accounts aren't anything too stellar. Kevin seems to have left more out of respect for Lupa and Phelous seeing how they operate through another site together, but seeing his patreon, you can see he does have a real following (he gets more per video than Lupa and Phelous combined), probably the reason why he felt no need to mention anything about being badgered in his goodbye.Silentpony said:
Yeah, being treated like shit is never justified, but one does have to wonder how much of that came from other factors not explicitly mentioned that might make both sides get snippy and well, end up devolving in outright bad conduct. Not saying Lupa is lying, but I don't think it's as one sided is what I want to say. I do know that CA were dicks about the patron thing initially, remember That Guy in the Suede mentioning it, so clearly that is one I believe.
As for Lindsay, it's obvious she got a better job, she already is doing stuff for a real studio and god knows she hasn't put much if any effort in the Nostalgia Chick persona outside the first few videos and the specials. She was mostly just going with the flow and once in a while would make an awesome video in a sea of meh.
Jesuotaku was completely unable to keep a schedule for her videos, so her doing written work for Anime News Network is probably best for all parties and her ambition is not reduced seeing her Visual Novel kickstarter, though she always had intense project ADD.
The producer I'm sad that doesn't get more love though is Sage, the guy does some pretty awesome work and his patreon is pretty paltry.
It's also one of the reasons why I think the Patreon model is interesting, but at the end of the day, it won't let you do this sort of stuff without some e-cred, you still need years on youtube/blip or whatever generating exposure before you can expect to go to Patreon and make a killing. Hell, Spoony hasn't done anything worth a fuck in years and his patreon account gives him stupid amounts of money monthly, though on the other side we have good old Jim who got immense recognition through the Escapist and still produces his content regularly which is what the people signed up for anyway.
Linkara has spoken up a bit about the leavings (kinda):
http://atopfourthwall.tumblr.com/post/108020599623
http://atopfourthwall.tumblr.com/post/108027321543
http://atopfourthwall.tumblr.com/post/108028820218
as has JesuOtaku:
https://twitter.com/JesuOtaku/status/555135560088428546
https://twitter.com/JesuOtaku/status/555136141230239744
Also, Kyle has posted about why he left (will add it to the OP):
http://kylekallgren.tumblr.com/post/108118690279/a-farewell-to-awesome
http://atopfourthwall.tumblr.com/post/108020599623
http://atopfourthwall.tumblr.com/post/108027321543
http://atopfourthwall.tumblr.com/post/108028820218
as has JesuOtaku:
https://twitter.com/JesuOtaku/status/555135560088428546
https://twitter.com/JesuOtaku/status/555136141230239744
Also, Kyle has posted about why he left (will add it to the OP):
http://kylekallgren.tumblr.com/post/108118690279/a-farewell-to-awesome
I don't know. There seems to be a lot of people trying to make a big thing out of nothing, and are just taking some things (especially with Lupa) at face value, without really thinking about them. First off, let it be said that yes, Mike Michaud absolutely sounds like he's a douchebag. Unfortunately Mike Michaud is also the CEO of Channel Awesome. (Are we really surprised at a CEO being a douchbag? But I digress.) This means that he is the top guy in the company and the guy making decisions. So I am not surprised that even bigger producers like Linkara have stated that they have issues with the way management runs things. Rob Walker has also always kind of struck me as being a jerk, (unless he's playing Santa Christ, in which case he is awesome) and while I don't think there's as much anger towards him, as the CCO, and thus the main contact with the producers, I will also allow that he is probably partially to blame for "Problems with the Leadership" as Linkara so plainly put it. From here on out though, I think people are just kind of making stuff up as the go, or blaming others for their problems. I see a lot of people pointing the finger at Doug Walker here; Doug's official role within the company is: Actor and Presenter. Basically he is the mascot, and the face of the organization. What he is not, however, is the person that's making the rules, or disciplining producers. While I'm sure that he could influence decisions if he wanted since he is by far the biggest draw for the site, it is neither his job nor his obligation to do so. I'd also like to point out how those ex producers now badmouthing him seemed sooo thankful when he did crossover work with them, thus driving up their views for those episodes, and introducing them to a much larger audience that may not have been aware of their work. Apparently the Channel Awesome execs are not the only ones with a "what have you done for me lately" attitude.
For those not aware of how the arrangement works between Channel Awesome and the producers, it pretty much comes down to this: Channel Awesome hosts the producer's videos on their site for free (some sites can and do take a cut of the producers' revenues in exchange for hosting them) and conversely the videos are allowed to be posted to Channel Awesome for free. (The producers are not employees being paid by the site.) While there are certainly guidelines for producing content for the site, there are no contracts, and either Channel Awesome or the producer can pull the videos and end their partnership at any time, and for any (or no) reason. So remember that when you hear those complaining that it was such an absolutely terrible place to work for, that these people could have left at any time without any hassle, and some of them did. (See both Oancitizen and Lindsay Ellis, both citing creative differences, and while acknowledging the issues with site management existed, both have said that it did not have bearing on their decisions.) Therefore, for any that have stayed with the site, it is obviously because it benefited them to do so.
Of the three producers that seem to have been lightning-rods for the current situation, I am going to focus on Lupa. I'm not doing this to pick on her, but her situation seems to be the one gaining the most traction with people, and also the one who's thinking is a bit flawed. To touch on the other two quickly JesuOtaku's situation hasn't been made entirely clear yet, but apparently she was being accused by site patrons of being abusive, and even from her own description seemed so very peeved that Mike and Rob started an investigation into the matter, with the punishment of being fired (having her videos pulled from the site) should the accusations be proven true. Now whether Mike and Rob were dicks about it, or Jes just bristled at the fact she was being investigated, who knows, my guess is probably a healthy mix of the two. In the end Jes was cleared of any wrongdoing, but decided that she was going to quit (pull her own videos) instead. Again this is all presented from Jes's point of view since as with all of these cases, Channel Awesome does not address these situations, but simply puts up a post wishing the producers the best with their future endeavors. I'm willing to buy it though, since it really does seem to be a believable situation that simply wasn't handled very well, probably from either side. Mike and Rob absolutely DID have to investigate the incidents, however they could probably have gone about it better, and if they had I would imagine Jes would have as well, since she wouldn't have been so offended.
For Phelous he seemed to just not feel as appreciated or connected as he once was when the site first started out. I think anyone that's worked from a Startup to a big company knows that feeling, as you go from feeling like one of the team to feeling like a cog in the machine. The big example of mistreatment that he cites is that they (he doesn't specify, but we know it's Mike. Possibly with an assist from Rob.) felt he was half assing some effects work they we paying him to do for an anniversary movie. Rather than bringing their concerns to him, they sent in a spy to try to find out if he was half assing it. Since they are morons, the spy they sent was his friend, and he just told Phelous about what was going on. He still stayed on with the site, but was unhappy, and when Lupa was fired, he had had enough, and he quit. Again I see this as very believable and I think anyone that has spent time working in an office would have a similar story to tell. As a quick note I did some research on Andrew Dickman, who I actually hadn't heard of and nobody seemed to be saying much about. He was the person that created the title cards for Phelous, Lupa, and SadPanda and the occasional job for other producers as well, and starting in 2013 he produced a show on the site called E-Heroes. Outside of a twitter update saying that he was leaving the site to focus and relaunching E-Heroes on you tube, and occasional (and apparently obligatory at this point) comment about Mike being a jerk and that Rob maybe wasn't his favorite friend either, there has really not been much to come out about his situation, so I would deduce that he simply wasn't too happy with management of the site either, and chose to leave alongside his friends. (Phelous, Lupa and he are all together on their own site now.)
Now moving on to Lupa. Let me be clear, I have no issue with her personally. I was never a big fan, but I was aware of her as the hot/goofy chick that reviewed terrible schlock movies, and that Todd had the hots for (did he ever get that date he was promised?) and that the Nostalgia Chick hated as a result. She seemed to be good at her work and in the crossovers I had seen her in, I found her very entertaining. I just really wasn't interested in the content she was reviewing (I have the same issue with the Cinema Snob, as much as I enjoy him), and as such never became a fan. Lupa seemed to have the same issues as the others: Mike deserves to die, Rob only crippled; but she has been by far the most outspoken, and had gone into great detail about some of the situations that she had issue with when it comes to management, and I'm going to take a look at her post on Tumblr mainly, as that is where she set out what occured. She seems to think that these stories show company management the is unreasonable and unduly difficult to deal with, and they well may, but in my opinion they really show that she seemed to think herself special and that the rules shouldn't apply to her if she didn't want them to. Into the breach then.
She starts out by complaining about the anniversary movies, as the producers were not paid for their involvement in them and the proceeds went to the site. Their payment, according to Channel Awesome, was free exposure and a free trip with their friends. So far it sounds good to me, there were lots of producers I had never heard of prior to watching the anniversaries (Phelous being one of them) and quite frankly there are some that I still have no clue who they are, outside of them appearing once a year. While I'm not clear on this next part, I believe what Lupa is saying is that everyone had to sign a contract to do a crossover with another producer, and give the rights to it over to the company to defer the costs of flying everyone to Chicago. I can understand producers not liking this, but I can also see the need for something of this nature for Channel Awesome, as they are a small company, and it probably would have been cost prohibitive otherwise. She also states that producers were given the rights to do commentary on the movies, and keep the proceeds of them as they would any other content they created. In my opinion this makes up for the flight deferral contracts from earlier, as it is much longer content in multiple parts, meaning more ad revenue, and it basically boils down to sitting and watching a movie for a couple of hours occasionally saying what you remembered about the shooting process, how much fun you had with everyone, and continually saying "Oh I live this part!" Understanding that less people are going to watch a commentary vid than a regular episode of your show, but factoring in the multiple parts and thus multiplying the ad revenue, I am willing to call this a was, but I honestly think the producers come out ahead, that's if they choose to go for the easy money. And what was the punishment for anyone that disagreed? For anyone that would dare buck the system and say "I will not be a pawn!"? They were told, that's fine, you don't have to go do it if you don't want to. And this is presented by Lupa as being unreasonable that Channel Awesome would tell people they can just not do the movies if they don't want the hassle that goes along with it. She then complains that she never got her free copy of To Boldly Flee, and that Mike likes to say that the producers are lucky that the site doesn't take a cut of their revenue. #1 Mike's still a dick. #2 He's also right. At the time when most of these producers joined the site, I don't think a skim of 5-10% of the profit would have prevented many people from joining, since they would still be making much more money being with the company. I know that the internet landscape has changed, and that would be a no go today, but they definitely could have done it in the past.
We then go into the subject of midrolls, which I really think she lost me. For those not aware, midrolls are the advertizements that run when they take a break in the middle of the video. The site policy was one midroll per video. Lupa wanted more money, so she started putting in two. Mike confronts her about this (apparently in a very jerky way), because they have seen a direct correlation between these extra midrolls being added, and an increase in visitors using adblocking software. In other words, while adding the extra midroll was making her more money, it was causing all of the rest of the producers to make less. Despite this she continued doing until they dropped the ultimatum that if she didn't stop she was gone. When Doug had the audacity to suggest that if she wanted to make more money, she should create more videos (and like him or not, the man creates a ton of videos; the NC, Bum Reviews, Disneycember, Shut Up and Talk, Sibling Rivalry, V-logs of various TV shows, the occasional commentary track and whatever else turns the hamster wheels in his mind; pretty sure Malcolm is the one monetizing the behind the scenes videos, so I didn't include), she took this as an insult to her work ethic, because she has already put out a video every Sunday for three years. I just see so many issues with her actions and attitudes here. But to put it simply, for someone complaining about the site having a "screw the producers" attitude, attitude seems to be "screw the producers that aren't me, because I need more money and don't want to do extra work for it". Imagine yourself working at a fast food place for minimum wage. You go to the boss and say that you can't pay your bills on the 20 hours a week that you're working, so he offers to double your hours to 40 a week to solve the problem. Then you say, naw that sounds too hard, I'll just have you pay me twice for the 20 hours I work. This is the attitude she has and she is so angry that she's not allowed to do it!
This leads to Patreon. Lupa decides to set up a Patreon so that she could receive direct donations from fans. I'm all for this, and if you are a fan of Lupa by all means I would encourage you to donate. However when she asks site management if she can promote it on the site. This still being a new concept at the time she received a response from Rob stating "It took us long enough for our fans to get used to the idea of ads to begin with. Uploading more than the standard two ads per video and then offering a buyout option comes off as too much of a slap in the face to them, and we do not want to risk it." I put this last part in quotes because this is the exact message sent to Lupa from Rob, which along with other conversations Lupa had, was "leaked anonymously"...right. I also put this entire message up in quotes because in the version of the story Lupa posted, Rob told her that adding Patreon to midrolls is "a slap in the face". Are you beginning to see the problem I'm having with her? She brings up the one time kickstarter campaign they had, but I see a big difference between a site doing a one time kickstarter, and every producer asking visitors for money in every video, because if you let one you've got to let everyone. Over time anyways, as Patreon was shown to be accepted by fans, the site allowed the producers to add a 30 second kicker at the end of their videos, which she still complains about, but I see it as properly reacting to fans being seemingly okay with the system. Further to that, with the fans being alright with the added bumpers, upon moving to the new site, restrictions were relaxed even more, and in addition to the bumpers producers could now include links with their videos and they can produce one video dedicated just to promoting and explaining their Patreons. Apparently not everyone heard the news right away, but I'm sure when she asked about it, and was told the good news, she must have been very happy that she was getting what she had wanted, right?
No. She demanded Mike tell her why it was allowable now, but not when she asked for it, and sent him a copy of the message from Rob, I had quoted earlier. Mike told her these are the new rules, and that there was no reason to pull up a message from almost a year ago when they were still on the fence. She asks him since when was "a slap in the face" being "still on the fence". And again, when she just keeps using the "a slap on the face" snippet from the actual message it doesn't sound right, but yes, when you look at Rob's actual message it is clear they're not sure if this will work and that right now "we do not want to risk it". She then calls him a and the rest of management hypocrites that are always, and demands an apology. At this time I feel I should point out, that this was not occurring during a private chat, but on a group chat, with the other producers on it. Mike tells her that they can have a private chat later, but she says she wants to continue on the group chat. He tells her that there's nothing else to say on the group chat and she finishes up by saying that like always he's making excuses so that it's not his fault. 20 minutes later, he contacts her asking if she is available for a quick call, and when he asks "when will you?" she just ignores him and leaves. A couple of hours later he try again asking if she can talk now. Still getting no response, he informs her that her videos will no longer be hosted on Channel Awesome.
Now this woman is telling everyone that she was fired because she wasn't at her computer for 15 minutes. But lets really think about this. On a conference chat in front of all her fellow producers, she calls the CEO of the company she essentially works for, a hypocrite that is making excuses to make himself not look wrong, because she is now getting what she wanted. Now I don't know of too many companies where you can call the CEO a hypocrite in front of all your co-workers and not get fired on the spot, regardless of whether they're a jerk or not. (They are a jerk...all CEOs are). Anyways, at this point in time, she still appeared to be employed. Then the CEO asks her if she has time for a quick chat, I'm assuming here that he is at this point still trying to smooth things over and fix things with her. She simply tells him no. And when he asked when they could talk, she ignored him and left. Please read this recap slowly and clearly: She called the CEO a hypocrite in front of the whole company and when he asked to talk to her about it afterwards, she says no, and leaves communication. So a couple of hours later he asks again if she can talk. At this point my guess would be that he wanted to afford her the dignity of firing her over the phone instead of over chat. When he is still ignored, he fires her over chat instead. Whew, I honestly wish Lupa the best, but she was in the wrong, and funnily enough, the conversations she leaked only make that clearer. Again I believe that his Mike guy is a dick, because pretty much every single person that works with him says so. But in these conversations both him and Rob come off as very understanding and professional people while she just seems to constantly attack to try to get her way.
Well, that was way longer than I thought it was going to be, but like a lot of people this situation was bothering me, and I'm glad I had a chance to work it out.
TL;DR: It's all Mike's fault. But Rob probably helped him.
For those not aware of how the arrangement works between Channel Awesome and the producers, it pretty much comes down to this: Channel Awesome hosts the producer's videos on their site for free (some sites can and do take a cut of the producers' revenues in exchange for hosting them) and conversely the videos are allowed to be posted to Channel Awesome for free. (The producers are not employees being paid by the site.) While there are certainly guidelines for producing content for the site, there are no contracts, and either Channel Awesome or the producer can pull the videos and end their partnership at any time, and for any (or no) reason. So remember that when you hear those complaining that it was such an absolutely terrible place to work for, that these people could have left at any time without any hassle, and some of them did. (See both Oancitizen and Lindsay Ellis, both citing creative differences, and while acknowledging the issues with site management existed, both have said that it did not have bearing on their decisions.) Therefore, for any that have stayed with the site, it is obviously because it benefited them to do so.
Of the three producers that seem to have been lightning-rods for the current situation, I am going to focus on Lupa. I'm not doing this to pick on her, but her situation seems to be the one gaining the most traction with people, and also the one who's thinking is a bit flawed. To touch on the other two quickly JesuOtaku's situation hasn't been made entirely clear yet, but apparently she was being accused by site patrons of being abusive, and even from her own description seemed so very peeved that Mike and Rob started an investigation into the matter, with the punishment of being fired (having her videos pulled from the site) should the accusations be proven true. Now whether Mike and Rob were dicks about it, or Jes just bristled at the fact she was being investigated, who knows, my guess is probably a healthy mix of the two. In the end Jes was cleared of any wrongdoing, but decided that she was going to quit (pull her own videos) instead. Again this is all presented from Jes's point of view since as with all of these cases, Channel Awesome does not address these situations, but simply puts up a post wishing the producers the best with their future endeavors. I'm willing to buy it though, since it really does seem to be a believable situation that simply wasn't handled very well, probably from either side. Mike and Rob absolutely DID have to investigate the incidents, however they could probably have gone about it better, and if they had I would imagine Jes would have as well, since she wouldn't have been so offended.
For Phelous he seemed to just not feel as appreciated or connected as he once was when the site first started out. I think anyone that's worked from a Startup to a big company knows that feeling, as you go from feeling like one of the team to feeling like a cog in the machine. The big example of mistreatment that he cites is that they (he doesn't specify, but we know it's Mike. Possibly with an assist from Rob.) felt he was half assing some effects work they we paying him to do for an anniversary movie. Rather than bringing their concerns to him, they sent in a spy to try to find out if he was half assing it. Since they are morons, the spy they sent was his friend, and he just told Phelous about what was going on. He still stayed on with the site, but was unhappy, and when Lupa was fired, he had had enough, and he quit. Again I see this as very believable and I think anyone that has spent time working in an office would have a similar story to tell. As a quick note I did some research on Andrew Dickman, who I actually hadn't heard of and nobody seemed to be saying much about. He was the person that created the title cards for Phelous, Lupa, and SadPanda and the occasional job for other producers as well, and starting in 2013 he produced a show on the site called E-Heroes. Outside of a twitter update saying that he was leaving the site to focus and relaunching E-Heroes on you tube, and occasional (and apparently obligatory at this point) comment about Mike being a jerk and that Rob maybe wasn't his favorite friend either, there has really not been much to come out about his situation, so I would deduce that he simply wasn't too happy with management of the site either, and chose to leave alongside his friends. (Phelous, Lupa and he are all together on their own site now.)
Now moving on to Lupa. Let me be clear, I have no issue with her personally. I was never a big fan, but I was aware of her as the hot/goofy chick that reviewed terrible schlock movies, and that Todd had the hots for (did he ever get that date he was promised?) and that the Nostalgia Chick hated as a result. She seemed to be good at her work and in the crossovers I had seen her in, I found her very entertaining. I just really wasn't interested in the content she was reviewing (I have the same issue with the Cinema Snob, as much as I enjoy him), and as such never became a fan. Lupa seemed to have the same issues as the others: Mike deserves to die, Rob only crippled; but she has been by far the most outspoken, and had gone into great detail about some of the situations that she had issue with when it comes to management, and I'm going to take a look at her post on Tumblr mainly, as that is where she set out what occured. She seems to think that these stories show company management the is unreasonable and unduly difficult to deal with, and they well may, but in my opinion they really show that she seemed to think herself special and that the rules shouldn't apply to her if she didn't want them to. Into the breach then.
She starts out by complaining about the anniversary movies, as the producers were not paid for their involvement in them and the proceeds went to the site. Their payment, according to Channel Awesome, was free exposure and a free trip with their friends. So far it sounds good to me, there were lots of producers I had never heard of prior to watching the anniversaries (Phelous being one of them) and quite frankly there are some that I still have no clue who they are, outside of them appearing once a year. While I'm not clear on this next part, I believe what Lupa is saying is that everyone had to sign a contract to do a crossover with another producer, and give the rights to it over to the company to defer the costs of flying everyone to Chicago. I can understand producers not liking this, but I can also see the need for something of this nature for Channel Awesome, as they are a small company, and it probably would have been cost prohibitive otherwise. She also states that producers were given the rights to do commentary on the movies, and keep the proceeds of them as they would any other content they created. In my opinion this makes up for the flight deferral contracts from earlier, as it is much longer content in multiple parts, meaning more ad revenue, and it basically boils down to sitting and watching a movie for a couple of hours occasionally saying what you remembered about the shooting process, how much fun you had with everyone, and continually saying "Oh I live this part!" Understanding that less people are going to watch a commentary vid than a regular episode of your show, but factoring in the multiple parts and thus multiplying the ad revenue, I am willing to call this a was, but I honestly think the producers come out ahead, that's if they choose to go for the easy money. And what was the punishment for anyone that disagreed? For anyone that would dare buck the system and say "I will not be a pawn!"? They were told, that's fine, you don't have to go do it if you don't want to. And this is presented by Lupa as being unreasonable that Channel Awesome would tell people they can just not do the movies if they don't want the hassle that goes along with it. She then complains that she never got her free copy of To Boldly Flee, and that Mike likes to say that the producers are lucky that the site doesn't take a cut of their revenue. #1 Mike's still a dick. #2 He's also right. At the time when most of these producers joined the site, I don't think a skim of 5-10% of the profit would have prevented many people from joining, since they would still be making much more money being with the company. I know that the internet landscape has changed, and that would be a no go today, but they definitely could have done it in the past.
We then go into the subject of midrolls, which I really think she lost me. For those not aware, midrolls are the advertizements that run when they take a break in the middle of the video. The site policy was one midroll per video. Lupa wanted more money, so she started putting in two. Mike confronts her about this (apparently in a very jerky way), because they have seen a direct correlation between these extra midrolls being added, and an increase in visitors using adblocking software. In other words, while adding the extra midroll was making her more money, it was causing all of the rest of the producers to make less. Despite this she continued doing until they dropped the ultimatum that if she didn't stop she was gone. When Doug had the audacity to suggest that if she wanted to make more money, she should create more videos (and like him or not, the man creates a ton of videos; the NC, Bum Reviews, Disneycember, Shut Up and Talk, Sibling Rivalry, V-logs of various TV shows, the occasional commentary track and whatever else turns the hamster wheels in his mind; pretty sure Malcolm is the one monetizing the behind the scenes videos, so I didn't include), she took this as an insult to her work ethic, because she has already put out a video every Sunday for three years. I just see so many issues with her actions and attitudes here. But to put it simply, for someone complaining about the site having a "screw the producers" attitude, attitude seems to be "screw the producers that aren't me, because I need more money and don't want to do extra work for it". Imagine yourself working at a fast food place for minimum wage. You go to the boss and say that you can't pay your bills on the 20 hours a week that you're working, so he offers to double your hours to 40 a week to solve the problem. Then you say, naw that sounds too hard, I'll just have you pay me twice for the 20 hours I work. This is the attitude she has and she is so angry that she's not allowed to do it!
This leads to Patreon. Lupa decides to set up a Patreon so that she could receive direct donations from fans. I'm all for this, and if you are a fan of Lupa by all means I would encourage you to donate. However when she asks site management if she can promote it on the site. This still being a new concept at the time she received a response from Rob stating "It took us long enough for our fans to get used to the idea of ads to begin with. Uploading more than the standard two ads per video and then offering a buyout option comes off as too much of a slap in the face to them, and we do not want to risk it." I put this last part in quotes because this is the exact message sent to Lupa from Rob, which along with other conversations Lupa had, was "leaked anonymously"...right. I also put this entire message up in quotes because in the version of the story Lupa posted, Rob told her that adding Patreon to midrolls is "a slap in the face". Are you beginning to see the problem I'm having with her? She brings up the one time kickstarter campaign they had, but I see a big difference between a site doing a one time kickstarter, and every producer asking visitors for money in every video, because if you let one you've got to let everyone. Over time anyways, as Patreon was shown to be accepted by fans, the site allowed the producers to add a 30 second kicker at the end of their videos, which she still complains about, but I see it as properly reacting to fans being seemingly okay with the system. Further to that, with the fans being alright with the added bumpers, upon moving to the new site, restrictions were relaxed even more, and in addition to the bumpers producers could now include links with their videos and they can produce one video dedicated just to promoting and explaining their Patreons. Apparently not everyone heard the news right away, but I'm sure when she asked about it, and was told the good news, she must have been very happy that she was getting what she had wanted, right?
No. She demanded Mike tell her why it was allowable now, but not when she asked for it, and sent him a copy of the message from Rob, I had quoted earlier. Mike told her these are the new rules, and that there was no reason to pull up a message from almost a year ago when they were still on the fence. She asks him since when was "a slap in the face" being "still on the fence". And again, when she just keeps using the "a slap on the face" snippet from the actual message it doesn't sound right, but yes, when you look at Rob's actual message it is clear they're not sure if this will work and that right now "we do not want to risk it". She then calls him a and the rest of management hypocrites that are always, and demands an apology. At this time I feel I should point out, that this was not occurring during a private chat, but on a group chat, with the other producers on it. Mike tells her that they can have a private chat later, but she says she wants to continue on the group chat. He tells her that there's nothing else to say on the group chat and she finishes up by saying that like always he's making excuses so that it's not his fault. 20 minutes later, he contacts her asking if she is available for a quick call, and when he asks "when will you?" she just ignores him and leaves. A couple of hours later he try again asking if she can talk now. Still getting no response, he informs her that her videos will no longer be hosted on Channel Awesome.
Now this woman is telling everyone that she was fired because she wasn't at her computer for 15 minutes. But lets really think about this. On a conference chat in front of all her fellow producers, she calls the CEO of the company she essentially works for, a hypocrite that is making excuses to make himself not look wrong, because she is now getting what she wanted. Now I don't know of too many companies where you can call the CEO a hypocrite in front of all your co-workers and not get fired on the spot, regardless of whether they're a jerk or not. (They are a jerk...all CEOs are). Anyways, at this point in time, she still appeared to be employed. Then the CEO asks her if she has time for a quick chat, I'm assuming here that he is at this point still trying to smooth things over and fix things with her. She simply tells him no. And when he asked when they could talk, she ignored him and left. Please read this recap slowly and clearly: She called the CEO a hypocrite in front of the whole company and when he asked to talk to her about it afterwards, she says no, and leaves communication. So a couple of hours later he asks again if she can talk. At this point my guess would be that he wanted to afford her the dignity of firing her over the phone instead of over chat. When he is still ignored, he fires her over chat instead. Whew, I honestly wish Lupa the best, but she was in the wrong, and funnily enough, the conversations she leaked only make that clearer. Again I believe that his Mike guy is a dick, because pretty much every single person that works with him says so. But in these conversations both him and Rob come off as very understanding and professional people while she just seems to constantly attack to try to get her way.
Well, that was way longer than I thought it was going to be, but like a lot of people this situation was bothering me, and I'm glad I had a chance to work it out.
TL;DR: It's all Mike's fault. But Rob probably helped him.
Well, after reading the blogs, I'd say the blame goes mostly on Mike Michaud, & to a lesser degree Rob Walker. Michaud needs to be replaced by a nicer less business oriented CEO who doesn't blame the use of increased Adblock usage on a producer whom only submitted 2 video per month, who doesn't tell their unpaid staff that they can't use Patreon to help pay their bills, who doesn't send core talent looking for greener pastures in droves, who doesn't fire the PR person while in surgery, etc.
I will always miss the glory days of Channel Awesome; 2008-2011. There's some new talent I like, almost entirely immigrants from Reviewtopia, who will most likely emigrate elsewhere in less than two years. But for the most part, I'll be watching the producers on Youtube, Blip, & their own sites. This was the 3ed shit storm to hit CA since the two incident with LordKat, Diamanga, Jesuotaku, & Spoony.
I will always miss the glory days of Channel Awesome; 2008-2011. There's some new talent I like, almost entirely immigrants from Reviewtopia, who will most likely emigrate elsewhere in less than two years. But for the most part, I'll be watching the producers on Youtube, Blip, & their own sites. This was the 3ed shit storm to hit CA since the two incident with LordKat, Diamanga, Jesuotaku, & Spoony.
What i don't seem to understand is there being a lot of talk about patreon being a major factor in letting these people go/them quitting, but it seems really random who they're biased against. One of those who left (I can't rember who, sorry) was talking about how Mike Michaud doesn't like patreon and basically had the attitude of "we do not have internet begging on this site. You can't talk about patreon in your videos etc." AND YET, in a recent video by Sursum Ursa called Stuff You Like: How Much Money I Make in Online, she directly talks about patereon and is all like "yeah it's really good and I make most of my money that way!" Erm...I thought Channel Awesome had a no "e-begging" policy. What the hell Mike!?
Yeah, business is business, but bad communication and going behind each other's backs is eventually bad business.
Trust me, I know people working for tv and newspapers radio etc and same kind of BS happens in those circles as well.
But being an asshole, not paying for your contributors, not being good with people etc is not required to be a successfull business, and if your contributors have other alternatives, they'll leave and choose not to work with you.
Trust me, I know people working for tv and newspapers radio etc and same kind of BS happens in those circles as well.
But being an asshole, not paying for your contributors, not being good with people etc is not required to be a successfull business, and if your contributors have other alternatives, they'll leave and choose not to work with you.
I'm not going to blame you for not reading my indomitable wall of words above, but I will summarize the Patreon issue for you. When Patreon became a thing, those running the site were concerned that including requests for money, in addition to the beginning and middle commercials, with videos would be seen as greedy, or as Rob told Lupa, that is would come across as a "slap in the face" to the fans. You could still use it, and promote it on your own site or anywhere else, but not on their site. I believe it was during this time that Suede produced a video on Patreon and wasn't allowed to host it on the site because they thought it felt like a covert ad. He left as a result of feeling that they were trying to control his content, and I believe it was he you were speaking of. As people seemed to be reacting favorably to the idea of Patreon, Channel Awesome told producers they could add a 30 second bumper to the end of their videos to promote theirs. Once they moved to the new site Patreon was becoming pretty much normal now, so the rules for the new site was: 1. They can keep doing 30 second bumper ads, 2. They could include a link with their videos, and 3. They could do one full length video explaining what Patreon is, what they were looking to do with it, and how fans can help. These rules were the same for everyone, though there is some debate as to whether they were clearly communicated. So while Mike Michaud is absolutely a jerk, he is apparently a jerk to everyone evenly.WindofHawks said:
I pretty much left the site after Spoonygate/thespoonyincident plus angry joe leaving blistered thumbs behind to take care of his own website. Wich in hindsight turned out to be a pretty smart move for him even before patreon was a thing. Same for spoony who seems to be far better off without CA and aparantly having a far more stable live at the moment.
CA really shot themselves in the foot when they replaced the NC with Demo reel and those cringeworthy sidekicks doug brought along. Followed by that really painfull 180 about bringing the NC back wich sadly hasnt felt quite right ever since then... dunno if its his sidekicks having to be shoehorned into every video or the feeling you get when you watch the post demo reel NC episodes that doug really really doesnt want to do this anymore, but the spirit so to speak is gone.
And that the "channel awesome" family wasnt all dandy roses had been made clear ever since the spoony incident anyways. What it boils down to is that alot of creative heads also means alot of strong personalities with different priorities, and in the end that has to explode eventually, especially when certain producers get favoured with crossovers while others are left in the dust. The amount of spoony and linkara crossovers to different producers and ofcourse Dougs videos was enourmus compared to other cameos from other producers. No wonder people get their knickers in a twist when the "Family" has some favourite children.
CA really shot themselves in the foot when they replaced the NC with Demo reel and those cringeworthy sidekicks doug brought along. Followed by that really painfull 180 about bringing the NC back wich sadly hasnt felt quite right ever since then... dunno if its his sidekicks having to be shoehorned into every video or the feeling you get when you watch the post demo reel NC episodes that doug really really doesnt want to do this anymore, but the spirit so to speak is gone.
And that the "channel awesome" family wasnt all dandy roses had been made clear ever since the spoony incident anyways. What it boils down to is that alot of creative heads also means alot of strong personalities with different priorities, and in the end that has to explode eventually, especially when certain producers get favoured with crossovers while others are left in the dust. The amount of spoony and linkara crossovers to different producers and ofcourse Dougs videos was enourmus compared to other cameos from other producers. No wonder people get their knickers in a twist when the "Family" has some favourite children.
Eh. Like many here, I've sort of fell away from CA over the years (and the AVGN, now that I think about it), but even when I was a regular viewer, none of these people were part of my regular weekly viewing, and I actually actively disliked Phelous (although not as much as Film Brain, who if there was any justice in the world would have been gone years ago). From what I recall, the site had a few heavy hitters who are still mostly there (Nostalgia Critic, Linkara, Angry Joe), some solid second stringers (Nostalgia Chick, Brad Jones, Todd in the Shadows) and a big list of people who were just kind of... there. Whether fired or quit, some turnover in the lower tiers was probably inevitable. None of this is as big a deal as the departure of Lindsay Ellis, as far as I'm concerned.
Agreed rgrekejin. She was one of the main draws for me, but she left in a very classy way, and said it was nothing to do with Doug or anyone else treating her poorly. She was never comfortable being packaged into a ready made character of "the female Doug" and her career was now leading her down different paths. I think a lot of the lesser lights trying to cause a stink could take a lesson from her.
It seems a lot of people assume that one or both sides are some sort of mustache twirling villains, when I think the answer is simple ineptitude. Yeah they haven't made those shows they went on indiegogo, but I don't think they just pocketed the money, it seems they have tried and failed at making any what they promised work, multiple times. And Mike is not evil, just not competent enough to run the site as a production company, which is what it seems they are trying to.
Which is also the problem with favoring the productions in Chicago, all the other content creators are just there to suplly content until the Walkers/Mike finally figures out to make what they want, and make it work
Which is also the problem with favoring the productions in Chicago, all the other content creators are just there to suplly content until the Walkers/Mike finally figures out to make what they want, and make it work
Phelous was fired?! Man, I love his stuff. Hopefully he'll still be on Blip. I can't believe that.
It's also sad that the rest of them (I know Obscurus Lupa and Andrew Dickman, never heard of Oanticitizen) where fired too. Hope they'll find success wherever they go.
It's also sad that the rest of them (I know Obscurus Lupa and Andrew Dickman, never heard of Oanticitizen) where fired too. Hope they'll find success wherever they go.
Ah yes! Me too. I'm soo tired of the angry nerd persona. I'll happily settle for some subtler dry snarkiness, but guys pretending to throw a fit over every little thing just wore me down, to the point where I'd find myself shouting at the screen, "I GET it! Just get on the with the review already!" Perhaps the time for a new reviewer trend is in order.Neverhoodian said:
Better? I suppose that depends on the perspective.Karadalis said:
But I don't think Spoony is any better off now than when he was with CA.
His work output rate or quality didn't improve one iota upon his departure from CA, and "surprisingly" once his Patreon went live last April, it somehow got much worse.
Just to give an idea of how bad things have become:
1) He currently makes about $5k a month from Patreon, and produces an actual show (non-vlog) once every 2 months.
2) I mean that literally. His last proper review, as of this post, was back in mid-November. Prior to that, was an episode in September.
3) Consequently, after the 4th or 5th consecutive vlog ranting about WWE, his audience lost their patience and flooded the comments sections on his site (and YT) with their distaste. So Spoony completely disabled comments on his videos, across the board.
Basically, if you aren't some moron paying him on Patreon, he doesn't want anything to do with you now.
4) He must have some sense of realization about this (or guilt), because he routinely mopes about in passive-aggressive mode all the fucking time on Twitter (despite claiming that he'd stop doing that months ago).
I suppose in one way, being paid 5k a month to do virtually nothing is a pretty sweet gig.
But that gravy train will run out of steam eventually, and along with it, his job.
Never really watched any of them. Aside from spoony, cinema snob, yms, angry joe, linkara, and nostlagia critic the others failed to grab my attention. They really just needed to try something different then just following their same formats under different subjects. Wasnt even aware of this till now lol.