A point I had never considered about sexism in gaming...is it really a valid point?

[Tsukuyomi]

So we're all well-aware of the 'sexism in video-games' issue, and personally I'm mostly a moderate on the issue. I'm fine with fairer representation as well as less objectification, but I also know that short of a massive shift in the way we all think, it'll be awhile before the more deplorable habits go away completely and I feel like the 'war', such as it is, may never be won completely one way or the other. Sexy games/fanservice will probably never go away completely, but at the same time there is NO reason to just shrug shoulders and give up the fight for equality. If you can put Samus Aran in a skin-tight suit and 90% of the photos of her are from behind, you can at LEAST put Nathan Drake or Dante in swimtrunks or a speedo or something. It's fair, we all have needs/wants, and I'm comfortable enough with my own sexuality that if the latter comes up in a game, I'm fine with it. Whatever the solution, ultimately so long as things are fairer and everyone is something approaching happy, do as you will.

That said, a friend of mine brought up an interesting argument in a single case that could be applied to more or in a broader sense.

The subject we had been discussing was League of Legends, Specifically the 'Battle Bunny' skin for the character Riven. For those who haven't seen it/don't feel like googling, here's the gist:

http://img3.leaguecraft.com/lol-splash-art/asset/wallpaper_760px_3322.jpg

Obviously in terms of raw skin shown it's not a nightmare, and it's a different kind of sexy than some of the other skins in the game. But given the context of the actual character it's applied to, I felt like this was crossing the line. I felt like this was plain-and-simple fanservice for no reason. Given Riven's backstory and what we've seen of her personality, it just felt like this was pandering and a classic example of objectification. ( http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/riven/#champion-lore her story, if anyone cares for the context.) I wasn't particularly angry, but I was disappointed that Riot would pull this on a serious character for whom sexuality doesn't really seem to be part of the concept for them.

I brought this up to a female friend of mine, asking why would the character even WEAR something like that. My friend merely shrugged her shoulders and replied: "Maybe it made her feel sexy."

At first that took me by surprise, then it got me thinking, and my thoughts are the question(s) I pose to you folks: If it were true, would that be a valid reason for the skin to exist? Does the in-character context make it excusable when we can all probably guess what the real-world reason was? Is it even a valid argument in general to say that 'maybe the character wanted to feel sexy' when we talk of degrading outfits and such in games? Or is the notion just a flimsy scapegoat for people who just want virtual boobs to be unhindered to hide behind? Is it okay to use such things when sexuality is clearly an intent and a part of the character's design alongside other equally important aspects of them?

I'm not sure, so I ask you guys: what do you think?

 

[Erttheking]

Christ I fucking hate that skin. I know LoL is somewhat even with showing skin off on both genders, but Riven, a person with a backstory that tragic dressing up as a playboy bunny? No. No no no no no no. It'd be like putting a holocaust survivor in a speedo.

And yes, if that WAS the case, that'd be a perfectly justifiable expiration as to why a woman dresses like that. But I seriously doubt it applies to Riven. She isn't sultry like Ms. Fortune, isn't a seductress like Ahri and isn't a dominatrix like Elise. It just doesn't fit her.

 

[Zhukov]

Umm... pretty sure the Battle Bunny skin is just a joke.

Asking why Riven would fight dressed like a playboy bunny is like asking why Poppy would bludgeon people with a giant lollypop. Answer: She wouldn't, it's a joke.

Also because Riot knew it would sell.

As for the topic in general, I'll repeat what I've said many times before: context is everything.

If I am played a serious-in-tone fantasy RPG set in snowy highland terrain and the mandatory assassin chick shows up in a leather bikini, I'm going to call bullshit. If there is a scene in that game where the characters attend a ball and she shows up an a sexy cleavage-tastic dress then I don't have a problem. Why would I? It's a ball, people dress sexy for balls. Hell, you could even swing the skimpy battle dress if you actually bothered to work it into the character. Half-crazy barbarian woman who fights in nothing but a loincloth and boots because she thinks it freaks out the enemy and she doesn't give a shit about her own safety? Sure, I'm totally on board.

As implied above, the tone of the game as a whole is also a factor. For example, I have zero problems with Bayonetta. The games are obviously and intentionally goofy as fuck. Bayonetta wearing a catsuit made of her own hair which is prone to flying off her at the end of long combos? Also goofy as fuck. Fits right in. Also doesn't pretend to be anything it's not. Thus no complaints from me.

 

[Wintermute_v1legacy]

Does League of Legends even have a story, or just some basic info for each character? Either way, I don't see anything wrong with it. I'm just gonna go ahead and agree with your friend. Or maybe they do it for no other reason than "it looks cool", because it does look cool. I clicked on a few characters and from what I've seen, these LoL characters have some pretty wacky outfits. This bunny one doesn't seem out of place.

 

[EyeReaper]

You know, I see where you're coming from, but honestly, I don't see it as a problem.

I mean, a lot of alternate skins don't mesh with the in-character lore. We wouldn't have outfits like Gentleman Chogath or Birthday Party Fiddlesticks if the lore was important. Besides, with how often they've changed the lore of characters (like Annie, Fiddlesticks and Trundle) does it really matter anymore? The Lore doesn't really add to the game, it's all just fluff. Otherwise, we wouldn't be able to play as Demacian characters on the purple Noxian side and vice versa.

Sure, it's tasteless, but that's why it's a paid alternate skin. If you don't like it, you will never have to play as her in it.

 

[communist gamer]

Christ I fucking hate that skin. I know LoL is somewhat even with showing skin off on both genders, but Riven, a person with a backstory that tragic dressing up as a playboy bunny? No. No no no no no no. It'd be like putting a holocaust survivor in a speedo.

And yes, if that WAS the case, that'd be a perfectly justifiable expiration as to why a woman dresses like that. But I seriously doubt it applies to Riven. She isn't sultry like Ms. Fortune, isn't a seductress like Ahri and isn't a dominatrix like Elise. It just doesn't fit her.

thats kind of a exaggeration is it not, anyways who says that someone with a tragic past cant go into battle in a sexy outfit, to be fair, if they threw the high-heels away and the ankle ribbon then i would think that that is a ester-theamed skin and not a playboy buny one

 

[Redd the Sock]

When Other M came out and everyone was on about Samus' personality, I held to the reality that for all we knew about her before Other M her bedroom could have been a hello kitty fan shrine. We don't know as much about the fictional characters we see as we think we do, only small sections of their lives that can be very different from how they'd behave in other circumstances. Often we project and stereotype: why would someone that likes cute things be a bounty hunter. Then we see persona 4's Kanji, the tough punk that likes to sew and make dolls, and we realize we're getting it wrong. Still others go the other way: if I wouldn't do it or think it's impractical, the character should as well. Yeah, we're talking an optional skin here, but it applies elsewhere as people look to things like Bayonetta or Ivy Valentine without the acceptance that the characters may just like to dress the way they do like may real life women, even if that personality is to justify the fanservice character.

 

[Erttheking]

Christ I fucking hate that skin. I know LoL is somewhat even with showing skin off on both genders, but Riven, a person with a backstory that tragic dressing up as a playboy bunny? No. No no no no no no. It'd be like putting a holocaust survivor in a speedo.

And yes, if that WAS the case, that'd be a perfectly justifiable expiration as to why a woman dresses like that. But I seriously doubt it applies to Riven. She isn't sultry like Ms. Fortune, isn't a seductress like Ahri and isn't a dominatrix like Elise. It just doesn't fit her.

thats kind of a exaggeration is it not, anyways who says that someone with a tragic past cant go into battle in a sexy outfit, to be fair, if they threw the high-heels away and the ankle ribbon then i would think that that is a ester-theamed skin and not a playboy buny one

True.

I'm not saying they can't, but Riven's tragic past makes up pretty much her entire character. Because of it she's an aimless wanderer. Heck half of Riven's other skins are based around her character, whether it's her being redeemed or falling back into her old ways. It just doesn't feel right.

Even then it'd still feel wrong.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

If sexy outfits were done because the character wanted to be sexy, then that would be different. Though you would need more characterization to support it. You would want that element of their character to be explored a little. It has to be more then an excuse to wear sexy outfits or you know it's just kind of dull.

 

[go-10]

so I just showed this picture to some of my coworkers, some play games some don't care at all the answer though was pretty unanimous. The guys that play games were all disgusted at what a shameless act of sexisim this is, the ones that don't play games thought she looked cute.

The girls the ones that play games and the ones that don't all said the same thing "what's wrong with a girl being/feeling sexy?"

I don't really know how to tell them that they're being objectified since as far as they're concerned they think that the guys that can't handle a girl wanting to look and feel sexy are probably just insecure of themselves... I don't know if I agree but when women don't react in the same way guys do to the portrayal of women in video games what does that mean?

this isn't the first time either the same thing happened with Zero Suit Samus and Bayonneta, most non-gamer girls just think it's awesome that a hot chick is the star and can kick ass :S

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Sure, it's tasteless, but that's why it's a paid alternate skin. If you don't like it, you will never have to play as her in it.

Hahahaha...it's an alternate skin?

I'm not even sure how it could ever be an issue to anyone. It's an alternate skin. Don't buy it if you don't like it. HOTS has a Chef Stitches skin. At no point in WoW lore would it be appropriate for a murderous abomination to dress up like a Chef. It's just a stupid skin. It's silly. It's supposed to be fun for the sort of people who find Abominations in Chef hats fun.

There is nothing inherently "sexist" about fan service. There's an argument to be made that excessive fan service aimed at one demographic might be perceived as alienating to another. There's an argument to made that excessive representation of a gender or race along stereotypical lines could contribute to the perpetuation of said stereotypes. But it's not a 1:1 situation where fan service:bad.

So she has a stupid outfit that is completely at odds with her back story. It's a MOBA. MOBAs are stupid. No one gives a shit about the back story, they care about her K/D/A ratio and whether or not the person playing her will stop drawing penises on the map.

 

[Pirate Of PC Master race]

Umm... pretty sure the Battle Bunny skin is just a joke.

Asking why Riven would fight dressed like a playboy bunny is like asking why Poppy would bludgeon people with a giant lollypop. Answer: She wouldn't, it's a joke.

I feel like I should answer your question. So I will.

Battle Bunny skin was made mainly because of the LOL community suggestion.

It was first suggested by an infamous forum troll called Shaella under the name of "bunny girl Riven".(god bliss him, he made LOL general discussion so much better while he was active)

Bunny girl riven post received one of the highest upvotes(equivalent of "like" in Youtube or Facebook.) in the history up to this date, and later got removed by Riot.(understandably so.)

This is the original content of the Original post according to my memory.

Riot should make Bunnygirl Riven skin because:

1. Riven jumps around like a bunny.

2. Because it will sell well.

Make it happen Riot.

In short: Yes. It was a joke.


While I was trying to search on google to find how to spell "Shaella", I stumbled across on this post posted by Shaella himself.

Read it if you want to, or whatever.
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/466620-why-its-so-easy-to-fall-into-the-sjw-trap

So yes, Let's all blame Riot for doing what community wanted. Because reasons.

p.s: Oh, but you can still go for french maid nidalee or police caitlyn skin. Those are probably from Riot.

Edit: Grammars. Why are they so difficult?
Edit 2: Ah, It was all fun and games back then. Now it is all about.... THIS. This is making me depressed.

 

[omega 616]

so I just showed this picture to some of my coworkers, some play games some don't care at all the answer though was pretty unanimous. The guys that play games were all disgusted at what a shameless act of sexisim this is, the ones that don't play games thought she looked cute.

The girls the ones that play games and the ones that don't all said the same thing "what's wrong with a girl being/feeling sexy?"

I don't really know how to tell them that they're being objectified since as far as they're concerned they think that the guys that can't handle a girl wanting to look and feel sexy are probably just insecure of themselves... I don't know if I agree but when women don't react in the same way guys do to the portrayal of women in video games what does that mean?

this isn't the first time either the same thing happened with Zero Suit Samus and Bayonneta, most non-gamer girls just think it's awesome that a hot chick is the star and can kick ass :S

I kind of understand this argument but at the same time, it implies that the character has an AI and can think for itself. Like the character walks up to it's walk in wardrobe and selects 10 or so skins the player can choose to let the AI wear ... she didn't choose to be/feel sexy, she was made to.

She was made to pose to show off her ass and boobs in some twisted pose, she (like all other female characters) was made to wear what they wear and pose, move, talk and act like somebody wanted them to.

Not to say "women are just manipulated by media" but how influential are things like gossip mags and girl magazines, we have all heard stories of people developing eating disorders from trying to obtain the unobtainable. Why are boob jobs so common? Like I said, I don't want to imply all women are manipulated and controlled by media and at the same time http://www.hotdeals.co.uk/news/asda-predicts-cheryl-cole-will-cause-surge-in-blonde-hair-dye-sales-800613137/ [ this happened] and in the UK, at least, after she got her side hand tattoo ... every fucker had a side hand tattoo.

Ugg boots, leggings/yoga pants ... women love fashion and as long as I have been alive, the fashion has always been sexy.

 

[go-10]

so I just showed this picture to some of my coworkers, some play games some don't care at all the answer though was pretty unanimous. The guys that play games were all disgusted at what a shameless act of sexisim this is, the ones that don't play games thought she looked cute.

The girls the ones that play games and the ones that don't all said the same thing "what's wrong with a girl being/feeling sexy?"

I don't really know how to tell them that they're being objectified since as far as they're concerned they think that the guys that can't handle a girl wanting to look and feel sexy are probably just insecure of themselves... I don't know if I agree but when women don't react in the same way guys do to the portrayal of women in video games what does that mean?

this isn't the first time either the same thing happened with Zero Suit Samus and Bayonneta, most non-gamer girls just think it's awesome that a hot chick is the star and can kick ass :S

I kind of understand this argument but at the same time, it implies that the character has an AI and can think for itself. Like the character walks up to it's walk in wardrobe and selects 10 or so skins the player can choose to let the AI wear ... she didn't choose to be/feel sexy, she was made to.

She was made to pose to show off her ass and boobs in some twisted pose, she (like all other female characters) was made to wear what they wear and pose, move, talk and act like somebody wanted them to.

Not to say "women are just manipulated by media" but how influential are things like gossip mags and girl magazines, we have all heard stories of people developing eating disorders from trying to obtain the unobtainable. Why are boob jobs so common? Like I said, I don't want to imply all women are manipulated and controlled by media and at the same time http://www.hotdeals.co.uk/news/asda-predicts-cheryl-cole-will-cause-surge-in-blonde-hair-dye-sales-800613137/ [ this happened] and in the UK, at least, after she got her side hand tattoo ... every fucker had a side hand tattoo.

Ugg boots, leggings/yoga pants ... women love fashion and as long as I have been alive, the fashion has always been sexy.

so in the end the problem isn't the interpretation of women in video games the indoctrination of what women should look/act like in a world wide environment. The media sets this high bars of what the perfect woman would look/act like and girls are raised under this assumption that that's their end goal. So really this bunny suit is just an optional pebble in the grand scheme of a much bigger issue, us addressing/fixing it does nothing for in the end it all comes down to the comezialitzation of beauty.

 

[omega 616]

so I just showed this picture to some of my coworkers, some play games some don't care at all the answer though was pretty unanimous. The guys that play games were all disgusted at what a shameless act of sexisim this is, the ones that don't play games thought she looked cute.

The girls the ones that play games and the ones that don't all said the same thing "what's wrong with a girl being/feeling sexy?"

I don't really know how to tell them that they're being objectified since as far as they're concerned they think that the guys that can't handle a girl wanting to look and feel sexy are probably just insecure of themselves... I don't know if I agree but when women don't react in the same way guys do to the portrayal of women in video games what does that mean?

this isn't the first time either the same thing happened with Zero Suit Samus and Bayonneta, most non-gamer girls just think it's awesome that a hot chick is the star and can kick ass :S

I kind of understand this argument but at the same time, it implies that the character has an AI and can think for itself. Like the character walks up to it's walk in wardrobe and selects 10 or so skins the player can choose to let the AI wear ... she didn't choose to be/feel sexy, she was made to.

She was made to pose to show off her ass and boobs in some twisted pose, she (like all other female characters) was made to wear what they wear and pose, move, talk and act like somebody wanted them to.

Not to say "women are just manipulated by media" but how influential are things like gossip mags and girl magazines, we have all heard stories of people developing eating disorders from trying to obtain the unobtainable. Why are boob jobs so common? Like I said, I don't want to imply all women are manipulated and controlled by media and at the same time http://www.hotdeals.co.uk/news/asda-predicts-cheryl-cole-will-cause-surge-in-blonde-hair-dye-sales-800613137/ [ this happened] and in the UK, at least, after she got her side hand tattoo ... every fucker had a side hand tattoo.

Ugg boots, leggings/yoga pants ... women love fashion and as long as I have been alive, the fashion has always been sexy.

so in the end the problem isn't the interpretation of women in video games the indoctrination of what women should look/act like in a world wide environment. The media sets this high bars of what the perfect woman would look/act like and girls are raised under this assumption that that's their end goal. So really this bunny suit is just an optional pebble in the grand scheme of a much bigger issue, us addressing/fixing it does nothing for in the end it all comes down to the comezialitzation of beauty.

That is just my theory.

As a straight white guy, I'm all for women being/feeling sexy as much or as little as they choose, I just want it to be their choice and not get Derren Brown'd into it.

I was once watching one of his shows, he explained how he made a woman choose a toy giraffe in this massive, multi-floor toy store. He dove her a certain route that had been lined with giraffe things or references, he walked her past the toy giraffes, he even went as far as saying something like "...it could be on a top shelf" and as he said it, he raised his hand and patted a pretend shelf way above his head, so his arm and hand looked like a giraffes neck and head. She obviously chose a giraffe toy.

Peer pressure is another big thing, how many people smoke but regret starting and wish they could quit? How many people smoke to fit in and/or not be left tending the bags while everybody goes outside for a smoke? That is a major health risk so being in fashion is nothing compared to that!

Just restate, I am not saying women are mindless robots to be programmed by big evil corporations or don't have any will power or anything like that ... just that a lot of things are targeted at women. Men have their own battles but this thread isn't about them.

It is also entirely possible that a bunch of guys just wanted to programme fanfic into their game, like I imagine every dev does 'cos I think too many women are dressed entirely too inappropriately in games.

 

[BarkBarker]

I feel sexy in speedos and the world judges me for going shopping wearing them....people look, oh boy do they look.

But in general setting and situation play a massive role, for what she is doing her sexiness is absolutely not a priority and it feels stupid. I like Samus Aran for this, bulky armour on the job fighting aliens, chill out afterwards in something light and unrestrictive. The point is you are allowed to wanna feel sexy, but skimpy and fetishistic (oh shit that is a word, sweet) IS stupid. Sexy should feel natural and subtle and make you wanna just take a long look at that attractive person regardless of gender, not slap in your face BAM TITS AND ASS.

.....Also, high heels? In your job? Enjoy the blisters, this is why I don't take things like this seriously, its absurd sexuality and it doesn't work with what we are supposed to believe.

 

[johnnybleu]

I don't really know how to tell them that they're being objectified since as far as they're concerned they think that the guys that can't handle a girl wanting to look and feel sexy are probably just insecure of themselves... I don't know if I agree but when women don't react in the same way guys do to the portrayal of women in video games what does that mean?

Perhaps it means that the whole thing is just hysteria and people are over-reacting. A few vocal minorities stir up a fuss about games being sexist/oppressive/objectifying/misogynistic and some people side with them for fear of being branded a misogynist (nobody likes to be labeled as a bigot). Also, white-knighting.

As far as I'm concerned, the whole "video games are sexist" debacle is a non-issue. Games are not sexist. They're not bursting with misogyny. Those are the claims of deluded rad-feminists who are out of touch with reality. When women themselves don't seem to give a crap about the alleged "objectification", maybe it's because they're-- oh, I don't know-- not being objectified?

 

[Popido]

If you want more diverse games, let developers be themselves. Theres enough diversity in the industry to let it surface on its own.

Developers should be able on accusation of sexism just admit that, yes, they made it sexist. If you ever want to understand these -ism, let them be explored. Honestly, if you can go pick up a game that the developers themself admit being sexist, bring it to the table where everyone can admit that it is sexist in some level, you can have actual talk about on what that -ism means.

 

[Olas]

It's hard for me to believe anyone would be concerned about "feeling sexy" when fighting for her life against monsters.

If this was one of those Dress-Up games or Barbie goes to the Ball then it would make some sense for aesthetics to be a primary concern to the character, but that justification doesn't make much sense in a game like LoL, from what I know of it.

You know what's dumber than blatant pandering fan-service? Blatant pandering fan-service that people try to defend and justify because they're worried about appearing shallow and want to have their cake and eat it too. If you want to have a female character who's half naked then have at it, but don't lie to yourself about what the reason is for it.