A Pro-Trump Militant Group Has Recruited Thousands of Police, Soldiers, and Veterans

[lil devils x]

I am aware of that. I am also keenly aware that there's a massive difference between a $35M AH-64 and jury-rigging a pair of machine guns to a Bell Jet Ranger. There's also a massive difference between a vintage M4 Sherman or M48 Patton (or even a vintage first generation M1 Abrams if you can somehow get a hold of one) and a military grade M1A2 Abrams with modern upgrade kits.

What needs to be understood in these discussion is that owning a military grade vehicle is legal, but you won't be able to get a hold of one that's in contemporary use by the US military. And even if you could get a hold of a state of the art AH-64 attack helicopter a civilian would never be able to attain all the support structures needed to effectively use one. There's, very literally, hundreds of people employed just to ensure that one attack helicopter or fighter jet can function as the disgustingly effective weapon it is. It requires people with highly specialized skill sets (aircraft technicians, radar operators, intelligence analysts, pilots, munitions specialists etc.) using highly specialized tools to ensure that an AH-64 isn't just a cool aircraft hovering around but a weapon so potent that it rivals, or even exceeds, an armored battalion from WW2 in destructive capability.

The Army of Iraq, as pitiful as it was, was much, much better equipped then any militant group in the US can realistically hope to be and it got absolutely massacred two times over by the US military. If the US military wants to have you dead and you are stupid enough to engage in open combat you are very, very dead. The best a militant group like the one in your OP can hope to do is to engage in domestic terrorism in order to destabilize the US over a long period of time. Because if sovereign states using large amounts of military hardware they are proficient with can't even put up a fight against the US military, you can bet that some police officers, veterans and preppers with too much gusto and not enough brains don't stand a chance.

The thing I don't think people really grasp here is that this that they very well likely have big money behind them. This area I grew up in here has like 23 billionaires here, and they are often pretty right wing to the extreme, they have all sorts of crazy things on their land here. They do not need to buy old stock. They can buy whatever they want. They aren't fighting the US military, they ARE the US military. They are recruiting from within the military. The FBI has been telling us this for decades. These guys are ALSO active US military.

Signs of white supremacy, extremism up again in poll of active-duty troops

More than half of minority service members have seen links to the hate groups among fellow troops.

www.militarytimes.com

FBI Reports on Extremists in Military

White supremacist leaders are making a concerted effort to recruit active-duty soldiers and recent combat veterans of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, according to a new FBI report.

www.splcenter.org

White supremacists and militias have infiltrated police across US, report says

A former FBI agent has documented links between serving officers and racist militant activities in more than a dozen states

www.theguardian.com

SPLC Testifies Before Congress on Alarming Incidents of White Supremacy in the Military

The SPLC’s Lecia Brooks testified today before the Subcommittee on Military Personnel (U.S. House Armed Serviced Committee) about white supremacy in the military and how to stop it. Below is Brooks’ written testimony. Thank you for the opportunity to submit testimony to the U.S. House Armed...

www.splcenter.org

 

[SupahEwok]

Special forces

No.

Being SF doesn't mean you know how to calibrate delicate equipment, repair broken equipment, know the logistics for maintaining an armory, or have a line to suppliers. It doesn't mean you have access to satellite imagery or know how to analyze it into something useful. It doesn't mean you have any grasp on strategy beyond street level gunfights. It doesn't mean you're a communications specialist. It doesn't mean you know how to drive a tank or fly a plane. It doesn't mean you know anything about keeping those vehicles running. And it definitely doesn't mean you have the time and resources to train a bunch of other people to do that shit for you cuz you need to be out actually doing your SF job. And that's if they're actually real SF and not liars, which is hugely endemic in militia circles.

As for 25,000 people and rich ranchers, if everybody contributed $10,000, they'd have a community pool of $250 million. With that money, they can buy 1 F-35 fighter, 10 Abrams tanks, and maybe have enough leftover to arm and fuel all that for a week.

They'll go up against the US military with $686 billion in budget.

It's not even a contest if you want to bring up money, because the vast, vast, vast majority of that 25,000 do not have $10k lying around. Even rich ranchers would have to take millions out of their investments and accounts, which they'd certainly balk at.

 

[lil devils x]

No.

Being SF doesn't mean you know how to calibrate delicate equipment, repair broken equipment, know the logistics for maintaining an armory, or have a line to suppliers. It doesn't mean you have access to satellite imagery or know how to analyze it into something useful. It doesn't mean you have any grasp on strategy beyond street level gunfights. It doesn't mean you're a communications specialist. It doesn't mean you know how to drive a tank or fly a plane. It doesn't mean you know anything about keeping those vehicles running. And it definitely doesn't mean you have the time and resources to train a bunch of other people to do that shit for you cuz you need to be out actually doing your SF job. And that's if they're actually real SF and not liars, which is hugely endemic in militia circles.

As for 25,000 people and rich ranchers, if everybody contributed $10,000, they'd have a community pool of $250 million. With that money, they can buy 1 F-35 fighter, 10 Abrams tanks, and maybe have enough leftover to arm and fuel all that for a week.

They'll go up against the US military with $686 billion in budget.

It's not even a contest if you want to bring up money, because the vast, vast, vast majority of that 25,000 do not have $10k lying around. Even rich ranchers would have to take millions out of their investments and accounts, which they'd certainly balk at.

They aren't JUST Special forces. The article made it pretty clear they are a variety pack. Looking at the FBI reports of active military being in these groups isn't making me feel safer either. They aren't " going up against" the military, they are a part of the military. Someone has to actually order the US military to get involved to oppose them for that to happen. Trump isn't even letting the FBI go after them, he sure as hell isn't going to order the military to do so.

Some of the things I have seen on these billionaires land around here makes me wonder if there is anything they can't buy at this point. They wouldn't need to spend their money on that though with so many armories around here. They would use their money elsewhere to make sure they accomplish whatever goals they need to instead. Likely to have politicians back off.

 

[Houseman]

To me, his words DON'T mean anything

Okay, great, since "him refusing to denounce white supremacy" is a nothingburger, since you wouldn't believe him even if he did, rendering the whole thing meaningless.

 

[deleted20220709]

DELETED

 

[lil devils x]

One AH-64 costs 35M dollars. The Hellfire missiles it fires costs 70,000 USD each. A M1A2 tank costs around 9M. An F-35B fighter jet costs over 100M USD. And that's just straight up acquisition cost, not counting stuff like fuel, munitions and specialized support assets like radar and comms.

But all of those numbers are imaginary anyway, because there's no open market for state of the art military hardware. Even if a billionaire rancher wanted to buy himself a company of M1A2 tanks and all support assets and could front the 200M+ that would cost, he has nowhere to purchase them. Keep in mind that even ISIS, the guys who ran an actual state for 2 years had to pilfer most of their heavy weapons from Iraq because there's no open market for military grade weapons above firearms level (well they could probably smuggle in some man portable old anti-tank and anti-air missiles like Soviet RPGs and Strelas, maybe even an actual guided AT missile or two).


Do they? It all depends on what kind of veterans they are. I was in air defense back in my army days and we had like 650 people spread over 40 different specializations in our battalion alone, so that we could operate 4 medium and 4 light surface to air missile batteries. We were over 100 people to manage the communication, command and control of that battalion alone and another 100 people to maintain the network and firing computations. There's a lot of specialists in the military and you need them all to be effective. The guys who fired the missiles would be useless without the radar guys and vice versa, not to mention how none of it mattered if the network went down. Now apply this to everything. You need thousands of specialists that are not frontline fighters to keep things going, all of them being inter-dependable but not inter-changable. If you don't have a radar guy, you can't fire an AA missile even if you've got all the other specialists lined up.



They have the ability to make guided anti tank missiles? man portable anti air missiles? When we say "military grade" in this discussion we are talking weapons that can take out fighting vehicles at the least, not just an assault rifle. Because your ability to make an AR-15 clone (or be able to buy one at the nearest gun store) means jack shit when you'll be facing tanks, attack helicopters and fighter jets.



No, they don't. Logistics is not something you learn. Logistics is something you meticulously plan and prepare to support your operations. Of the 650 people I served with, almost 200 were in direct logistical tasks such as drivers and cooks. It isn't just about finding a nice house mama to whip out that chili con carne for you, it is about providing (and preparing) the tons of food that your organization needs every day. It is about supplying thousands of gallons of fuel every week, not just to supply bases but out to scattered units. It is about securing millions of rounds of munitions and getting them to where they need to be before the battle is over or your guys run out.

If you're a frontline veteran you don't understand logistics. It is that thing you complain about, the guys you detest for being pussies who do all the hard work so that you and thousands of guys like you holding a rifle get food, fuel, ammo, replacement gear and replacement personnel. Logistics is hard as fuck and takes a lot of manpower, planning and hard work. Unless they've been hoarding fuel and ammo for the last decade as well as setting up a network of dedicated logistical personnel they don't have logistics. And if they do, those 25,000 will be 2500 guys with rifles and 22,500 guys ensuring the 2500 have all they need to fight, because that's the logistics trai of an extremely slim military unit, 1 frontline fighter for every 10 logistics and support.

I am not sure you grasp what they can have access to here. Even the cartels have logistics, and these guys are more advanced than the cartels. It was the Zetas security experts and logistics is why the US saw them as the most technologically advanced threat to the US. Remember the Zetas were the ones who had their own hackers tracking down anonymous members and kidnapping them? They killed all the members of an online forum? They hacked the US border drones? I see that these guys are following that same pattern of gathering up Military and police recruitment as they did. When you are in a GOP state, they see these guys as "on their team". who is going to order to act against them? These are the " good ol boys" the republicans here support.. I am not seeing all of this as being out of their reach as you suggest. Them being veterans and active military, don't you think they know exactly what and WHO they need to recruit to do this? People underestimated what the Zetas could do too. They started here in Texas as well. If the US had not stopped them they were set to keep going and take over more of Mexico. People didn't realize they had extremely effective logistics until it was too late and we had tons of mass graves..

 

[Agema]

But this probably won't change anybody's opinion.

Well, it is quite hard to trust a man who lies literally all the time.

Especially when he also equivocates or refuses to condemn white supremacists other times, retweets white supremacists, and has a man widely suspected to be a white nationalist in his administration as a senior policy advisor.

 

[deleted20220709]

DELETED

 

[lil devils x]

You keep hanging up on the Zetas, despite the fact that the US with relatively little effort could break their hegemony over the Mexican drug trade. This suggests that the Zetas were not the military threat to the US that you made them out to be when all it took was reinforced policiary assets to destroy them. That's not to say that the Zetas weren't dangerous, but they were not dangerous in the "occupy US soil"-way.

Your idea that a bunch of civilian dudes, no matter how much they are veterans, could somehow get the military hardware necessary to put up a serious fight against the US military is so preposterous that I'm only entertaining this discussion because I have some weird fascination with imagining just how much ass kicking they'd be receiving. The US military, as I pointed out prior, destroyed the Iraqi military twice over without breaking a sweat and the Iraqi military was considered the best in the middle east the first time and a serious threat to everyone around them the second.

25,000 men is only a few thousand more then one US army division. The US currently has 18 Army (6 regular and 8 NG being in the continental US) and 4 Marine divisions, not to mention vast naval and air force assets. Even if the militants through magic and wishful thinking got all the equipment they needed, these guys are still outnumbered massively, they can't easily replace losses and they can't get more specialized munitions (once again, you can't buy a hellfire missile, attack helicopter or tank on the open market as they are made to order for state level buyers). So what are they going to do? Even if they could go toe to toe with one of the armored divisions on US soil, they still lack proper air support and the USAF will have the field day of their lives when they can mercilessly punish any attempt at movement without any fear at all of taking effective anti air fire. Even if they somehow got AA capability, they are now down a thousand guys who are tied up to Patriot batteries firing a 3 million dollar missile. How long can they pay for this insurrection?

I'm sorry, but the idea of an armed insurrection by a militant group not backed by at least a significant portion of the US army is stillborn. The US military is the most sophisticated in the world, with a yearly budget so insane that it is higher then the next 4 countries combined. There's no realistic scenario in which a bunch of ex-veterans, cops and preppers stage a rebellion and overcome the US military. Their one hope is that the Joint Chiefs of Staff are worried about collateral damage so they don't get wiped out in the first week of "insurrection" by massed rocket battery fire, cruise missiles and high level bombings from B-52 bombers that simply obliterate everything in the grid square they target. Because if they survive that first week they get to die like heroes when the armored formations roll in and crush them like bugs in the sort of lopsided battle you get when one side has the best of the best in 2020 military tech and the other has small arms that can't penetrate even a quarter inch of armor plate.

They don't need to " occupy US soil to be effective. In fact, they would be MORE effective by not doing so and stay in the shadows tbh. The tool they are using right now is just intimidation and keeping people afraid to speak against them locally. I keep hanging up on the Zetas due to their small numbers and extreme effectiveness of their small number. They did what they did with less people. The US was able to take them down DUE to their low numbers. That 25,000 member list was only the numbers they were willing to show to the media, and did not include active duty because they know the risk to active military. Having a list that large that they are willing to allow the media to have makes me worry more about what they AREN'T willing to show us. The thing you have to understand is here in Texas, these guys are ON THE SIDE and SUPPORTED BY the current government in power. Not just Trump. Texas legislature, governor see them as ALLIES, not opposition. Those in control of the military are in agreement with these guys, not against them so who is going to order the State guard or national guard to act against them? You do realize that Trump is the current leader of the US Military right? That the primary role of the president of the United states is commander and chief of the US Military and has already fired any general who has opposed him because he is the one who can. ALL US military swear an oath to obey the president. These guys are acting as a direct command from the president by going to "watch the polls"..
This IS the oath of enlistment for the US:

I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).
You keep thinking they are VS the US military, That only happens if the government uses the military against them. Why would the government be against them when they see them as allies? They ARE the US military too. Trump IS the commander of the US armed forces, not congress. Trump refuses to commit to a peaceful transition of power if he loses AND he is the current HIGHEST commander of the US military until another president is sworn in. I am not saying they are going to fight the US military. I am saying they will not have to.

 

[09philj]

Even if there was a terrorist group with the wherewithall and funds to a weapon of mass destruction, it probably wouldn't get them very far. The real threat posed by armed right wing groups is that they are allowed to harass, intimidate, and perform acts of violence with impunity by sympathetic law enforcement. This is not a new problem in the US, and it will continue to happen. As long as they don't cause problems for the police, they will be allowed to cause problems for other people. If they overstep their bounds, then you'll get more things like the Malheur Occupation.

You keep thinking they are VS the US military, That only happens if the government uses the military against them. Why would the government be against them when they see them as allies? They ARE the US military too. Trump IS the commander of the US armed forces, not congress. Trump refuses to commit to a peaceful transition of power if he loses AND he is the current HIGHEST commander of the US military until another president is sworn in. I am not saying they are going to fight the US military. I am saying they will not have to.

For once, we are fortunate that the Pentagon probably doesn't give a shit what their duties are on paper.

 

[Mister Mumbler]

It should be noted that the lessons to take away from America's recent forays into counter terrorism efforts isn't that it's possible to hold off the US military through a prolonged insurgency, but that the US has a lot of trouble following through with larger objectives. Something they are quite good at? Killing shit loads of enemy "combatants" (for a given value of combatant unfortunately).

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Funny thing is so far the mail in ballot system seems to be the most open route to tampering.

From the project Veritas video alleging vote harvesting to the Actually shown case of 100+ mail in Trump ballots from military members being found discarded.

 

[MetalHead]

So, these guys are now planning on "watching" the polls to answer Trumps call, that and they are planning for a civil war to oppose the Green New Deal, firearm regulation, and other "Liberal Agenda". I am afraid that those here who have been pushing for a " make it get worse so that people will be pushed to do what we want" do not seem to understand that their plan will have the opposite result of what they think it will. This is only one of the many far right groups we have growing right now.

"A mother pulled her toddler away, whispering, “Those men have guns.” Semitrucks paraded down the street, flying Trump flags. They blared their horns, and the men cheered. Soon I was at the state capitol, surrounded by 22,000 people, many of them carrying AR-15s and political signs. oppose tyranny. guns save lives. trump 2020."

"It’s not just about guns,” Rhodes said. But guns were at the heart of it. Trump was stoking the idea that conservatives are a minority threatened by a demographic tide that will let liberal cities dictate the terms for the rest of the country. When I asked Rhodes and other people on the militant right to name concerns beyond gun rights, they mentioned how history is taught in schools, or how the Green New Deal would threaten land use, agriculture, single-family homes. They stressed that America is a republic, not a democracy. Liberals, Rhodes told me, want to see “a narrow majority trampling on our rights. The only way to do that is to disarm us first.”"

A Pro-Trump Militant Group Has Recruited Thousands of Police, Soldiers, and Veterans

An Atlantic investigation reveals who they are and what they might do on Election Day.

www.theatlantic.com

The idea that " we can take out the wealthy" and the problem is solved, is terribly, sadly mistaken. I think those promoting this do not really understand the full scope of the problem here.

blah blah sounds like some more pansies with tiny dick syndrome. A perfect match for the orange buffoon.

And yea, let one of these inbreds try their bullshit with me.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

It should be noted that the lessons to take away from America's recent forays into counter terrorism efforts isn't that it's possible to hold off the US military through a prolonged insurgency, but that the US has a lot of trouble following through with larger objectives. Something they are quite good at? Killing shit loads of enemy "combatants" (for a given value of combatant unfortunately).

I think Killing shitloads is a better description because the USA seems very good at hitting their allies too not just their enemies.

 

[deleted20220709]

DELETED

 

[lil devils x]

The oath is to the constitution. In the case of Trump losing the election and refusing to transition power peacefully, guess who's side the constitution is on? It should also be noted that the military, especially high ranking military, has repeatedly been opposed to Trump and his antics. It is very unlikely that the JCOS would throw their hat in with Trump and much more likely that they will support a transition of power, with force if need be. The moment he refuses a transition of power Trump is no longer the president but a renegade refusing to comply with the US constitution.

But I'll also note that your argument has shifted from "they could win a straight fight and can easily get military equipment" to "they are protected by politicians that's why they are dangerous" and take the goalpost moving therein as my cue to leave this discussion.

Constitution and " I will obey the orders of the President of the United States " The President separately. They specifically designate the president for a reason.
They would have to prove that he lost the election, which takes time and courts. Until then the sitting president controls the military. Most of the military voted for Trump in 2016. Which normally wouldn't matter, but it could impact this specific issue as to who they believe. If the military actually believe and support the president that the election was tampered with and fraudulent, they would still be under the direction of the president.

I didn't shift my argument, look at the OP, you shifted that. I never said they would WIN against the US military I keep stating THEY ARE US MILITARY, not against them. They can access whatever military equipment they want, that doesn't mean they would win a fight against them. I never said they would be fighting them at all. Go re read.

You keep shifting it to VS the US military no matter how many times I say " They ARE the US military". They can easily get whatever equipment they need and I doubt our government would do anything to stop them due to who controls out government.

My position was and still IS: They can get whatever military resources they want due to being former and active US military and that the republican government likely would not act against them in the first place due to seeing them as being " on their side" so who would? Not that they would even fight the US military at all. Being able to access military resources doesn't mean actually either being willing to fight the other to begin with. They can access whatever military resources they want to fight against " the liberal left" they have said they oppose, who doesn't actually control the US military. These guys are saying they would violently resist any attempt at enforcing " the green new deal" and other " liberal agenda". In their minds it is a matter of them vs "Urban liberals trying to impose their policies on us against our will".

 

[lil devils x]

Funny thing is so far the mail in ballot system seems to be the most open route to tampering.

From the project Veritas video alleging vote harvesting to the Actually shown case of 100+ mail in Trump ballots from military members being found discarded.

No, it is already a federal offense to tamper with US mail and they have "postal police" and investigations for a reason. Electronic voting is what is not very secure. With Physical ballots they can scan them to be reviewed in the system and store them in case of the need for a physical recount if contested. Physical ballots take longer and are more difficult and expensive physically deal with, but are definitely more reliable than electronic systems that can be tampered with at will. We should just extend early voting and the amount of time it takes to count them to make it easier to manage, but that would still be more secure. Especially if we had designated poll boxes inside post offices that people could use up to a month in advance, as they will be under 24hr video surveillance as well.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

No, it is already a federal offense to tamper with US mail and they have "postal police" and investigations for a reason. Electronic voting is what is not very secure. With Physical ballots they can scan them to be reviewed in the system and store them in case of the need for a physical recount if contested. Physical ballots take longer and are more difficult and expensive physically deal with, but are definitely more reliable than electronic systems that can be tampered with at will. We should just extend early voting and the amount of time it takes to count them to make it easier to manage, but that would still be more secure. Especially if we had designated poll boxes inside post offices that people could use up to a month in advance, as they will be under 24hr video surveillance as well.

yeh but those 100+ Trump votes were only found because they were discarded. There really needs to be a sort of check on the returns or something or Sealed ballot boxes being shipped round so the ballots themselves can mysteriously go missing on their own.

The electronic systems in some states are being upgraded to generate some paper record too.

 

[lil devils x]

yeh but those 100+ Trump votes were only found because they were discarded. There really needs to be a sort of check on the returns or something or Sealed ballot boxes being shipped round so the ballots themselves can mysteriously go missing on their own.

The electronic systems in some states are being upgraded to generate some paper record too.

That was a primary vote, 100% controlled by the GOP. Not a general election controlled by the federal and state governments. GOP being incompetent isn't a surprise to anyone regardless. They could send voters an electronic confirmation when their ballots were received and entered, which is still safer than doing electronic ballots.

When I used the machines here, I wasn't searched going in to vote, and I could be in there alone with the machine as long as I wanted, I could even switch machines, which I have done previously because there was something gross and sticky on the machine I first went up to and I didn't ask anyone permission to switch, I just did as they didn't even have anyone in that area to ask if I had wanted to. I had to go look for someone later to tell them that one machine was gross and needed to be wiped down. You think about people not even being left alone with gas pumps or ATMs can attach devices to steal credit card numbers in a matter of seconds, so if someone who really wanted to mess with the machines here they very well have more than ample opportunity to do so.

Viral Video of Mississippi Voting Machine Changing Man's Vote Prompts Calls for Paper Ballots and Election Security Reform

"These machines should not be used in a democracy."

www.commondreams.org

]

Machines reportedly switching votes plagues Indiana county for second straight election

Voting machines reportedly switching people’s choices have troubled a county in Indiana for the second consecutive election.Tippecanoe County experienced issues with machines switching people’s sel…

thehill.com

This doesn't happen with paper ballots.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

That was a primary vote, 100% controlled by the GOP. Not a general election controlled by the federal and state governments. GOP being incompetent isn't a surprise to anyone regardless.

No-where does it say they were for the primary. Most of the wording implies it was for the main Election but they're Military votes from people serving outside of the USA.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/09/25/what-we-know-about-those-discarded-trump-ballots-pennsylvania/