A question about Mass Effect 3's ending (spoiler alert)

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

Not everyone willingly goes out of their way to spoil content for others. Not every one lacks any sort of willpower. Not everyone seeks some sort of note and not everyone will tell you what your christmas present is simply because they know. There are a lot of people who behave like carbon copies of others in their behavior, but that simply is not, nor ever will be applicable for all. But to be so close minded and willfully defiant is never a good way to expand your mind to new ideas.

New ideas? You're not providing anything new. You're not providing anything at all. All you said is that you're the only one who knows the truth about Mass Effect and everyone else is wrong. You shouldn't have said that because now you made it even more obvious that you're full of it. Oh you're very, very clever.

This is where your trolling falls apart. Film and literature critics analyze books and movies and explain their analysis to people. Without feedback from their peers, they can't know if their analysis of a literary work is correct or worth anything. Sure it may still hold some subjective value, but otherwise it's worthless.
Schools analyze things all the time. You see, in schools (you should know this if you went to school) that's what we call interactive learning. It's what classes are all about. The teacher can't simply tell you to read a maths textbook and figure it out, they have to explain it to you. It's the same with almost every other subject. Especially literature. The teacher will ask you for your opinion, sure, but in the end they will give you theirs. That kind of analysis and debate is beneficial to kids. It's beneficial to everyone. It teaches people how to think and pay attention to what's important. So when you say that you don't want to spoil the truth to people who already played the game and analyzed it to hell and back, you're lying. There is no other rational answer.
Your spoiling argument, which is your only argument, fails flat on it's ugly face. Why wouldn't you want people to know the truth? Simple, you're either trolling or trying to make people think that you're more intelligent than everyone else.

Another thing to consider. How come you don't already know these things if you're so smart that you alone managed to figure out what Mass Effect ending is REALLY about?

We know all about the ending. We have evidence to support what the ending is about. It's not that difficult to figure out. Even Bioware explained some aspects of it in the Extended Cut to make it clearer. Do you honestly think that people are gonna start thinking about the ending in order to figure out some deep thus far unknown meaning just because *you* said they should? You're just a random guy on the internet.

You can claim anything you want, but without evidence you have nothing of value to offer. You can't fight logical inconsistencies with "I HAVE SEEN THE TRUTH AND YOU DIDN'T". Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound?

Anyway, I don't care if you're trolling or just trying to look smart on the internet. Whatever the case may be the result is the same. You want attention. And I'm not providing you with any of that anymore. I'm done with you. Until you provide empirical evidence to support your...whatever it is you think you have, don't even bother responding.

 

[mfeff]

snippers

I disagree with this; NERV and Gendo never tell Shinji and the audience everything. I think the point behind this is that "you are never going to make decisions with full context" and Thrid Impact was the attaining of all context and turning the world white. Like for example when the Dummy Plug takes over EVA-01 and beats EVA-04 into a pulp, nearly killing Suzuhara. I bet you if Shinji had known Gendo was about to let an unstable Rei thing take over EVA-01 Shinji would have fought and attempted to defeat EVA-04 without damaging Suzuhara's plug. Instead, this happened...

Completely agree. Now that said the question of the nature of the Eva units themselves is perhaps worth noting. Are they a metaphor, or are they tangible genetic clones or chimeras of the female parents of the children? I have puzzled over that on and off, concluding both, depending on the point of view. I think there is enough "on screen" evidence to support both positions.

This also brings up an additional "suppose", going with a theme of sexual reproduction, is it "plausible" that the Eva units themselves once "impregnated" with the children are both symbiotically given "life", and also engage in a sort of "protection" mode of that child. The child's emotional state due to the symbiosis could be said then to be driving force behind any "change" that the Eva organism will undergo. This work in a Buddhist context in that "evolution" by modern Buddhist standards is similar to the modern Christian notion of "intelligent" design, albeit, with some caveats.

Simply suggesting some ideas, it's not all gold. My analysis are almost exclusively reductionist and linear for the purposes of coming to grips with a thing, even a differential.

If I were to treat "emotion" like a color in this sense (such as a MtG) I think there could be some ground here. Maybe this is what you have been saying all along?

Shinji rejects instrumentality because a white existence is... well boring. That's Eva's thesis.

I don't think this is supported in ME however because... well we have the damn codex. Shepard asks questions and normally makes decisions based as informed as possible.

The difficultly of this for me is determining the level of intelligence that "Eva" has. Whatever the humans are fighting against does not have the qualities of omniscience so there is always room to assume that it is "alien", perhaps a "progenitor", and that there is more to the tale of human evolution than has really been divulged. Is the earth a cradle for a further move in evolution, or is this a "collection" of sorts. This is very Asimov and not an unfamiliar territory within Japanese science fiction and science fantasy.

There are strong relationships to "some" of the themes within ME if I frame it this way, although for every reason it works in Eva, it fails as a "thesis" in mass effect due to the severe "lack" of time spent detailing the hypothesis.

Essentially the Protheans detail a struggle over a long period of time in which they had "won" up to the point where internal division crippled there efforts and eventually they lost a war of attrition. To elevate the Reapers to the status of near god hood, undermines the nature of the previous establish world.

That is the philosophical Sovereign as a source of authority, and the independent maturity to become "self aware and self guided". A major theme of the first game. This is almost identical to the setup of the "Shadow Vorlon" conflict of Babylon 5. Which pulls heavily from Asimov "Childhood's End".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood's_End

Aside from Mai Waifu Misato.

I don't think you can split that down by gender; Ritsko's Mother's "Casper" aspect locked in the Magi system betrayed her. Shinji let Misato down (though you could argue that in that relationship Misato is the more masculine). I'm even going to say Asuka and her final belief that her mother was providing her with a stronger AT Field and Rei betraying Gendo.

I think the point of the "betrayal" as you say... to some extent wasn't a betrayal; We knew Shinji would break down at the worst possible time and Misato tricked herself into thinking that he wouldn't because he was her only hope. Ritsko knew that her mother wouldn't betray Gendo (("I hated my mother as a woman")) but trusted the Magi system because it was her only hope at stopping Gendo. Gendo knew that Rei wasn't Yui but tricked himself into believing that she was, or at least had some kind of attachment to him. We all know what and AT Field was by the end but because Asuka no longer believed in herself she had to believe in something external, her mother who she knew was messed up but she had unresolved issues with her.

You could argue that it was anti-feminine in a way I guess as we normally attribute emotional responses to femininity and rational responses to masculinity, but again that's a cohort. The point of those was solipsism, Like when Shinji talks to his self image or psychological profile in the episode where he's trapped in the sea of driac. It wasn't a literal betrayal it was a betrayal of a psychological profile

Gender allows me to make a slippery slope argument concerning the black and white, or di-morphic dichotomy. It is not a particular strong argument I agree. Simply wanted to comment that Misato kills her boyfriend, Rei rejects Gendo, Shinji rejects Tabris, and Osuka rejects Shinji.

These where all somewhat of one sided relationships that ultimately fail to achieve a union that meets one of the parties expectations. So if I fusion what you have said and then we use the driac as the direct meme for what is going on, we may conclude that there is a considerable amount of projection of the ego, externalization of confidence (based on what one believes how one is perceived), and ultimately how one see's oneself "ultimately".

To this end there is a certain amount of "becoming" by the characters. Shinji becomes Gendo, Rei becomes Yui, Ristko becomes her mother; that is becoming the thing they fought against.

Be careful when you fight monsters and all that... N. Dog FTW!

Where I am going to try to steer this, is that "instrumentality" is simply "sexual procreation" of oneself... through time and space, as a mixture of what you where before and the "other" outside of a self.

This is a very "modern" Buddhist perspective concerning the notion of "reincarnation". I simply want to make a case that the artist/writer/director himself comes from a culture that, like ours in the west, lives in troubled times concerning the nature of both reality and religious dogmas.

Archtypes are INCREDIBLY POWERFUL narrative devices!

Agreed, they become Archetypes for a reason; because they speak to us. There's the old saying that you can never tell an original story, but you can tell it in an original way. Saying that they can be a crutch; its nice when they deconstruct them or develop them.

We could tangent right here and spend a couple dozen pages just discussing this topic alone. The question perhaps is, are archetypes as Jung has describes a "collective unconscious" perhaps even metaphysical? Or are they cultural meme's that are carried through time and space in the way the Heidegger prescribed with his concept of the "zeitgeist"?

The more modern interpretation being that "culture" is ones "operating software". Tons of arguments to be had here, both with very valid points. Ultimately this may be "unknowable".

Space ninja, is cyberpunk and noir, not sci-fi.

And makes me want to vomit in this context... anyway

Thing is Kitsune in ME was your space ninja... we had already met the quota, there was simply no need to introduce another character other than to copy Deus Ex boss fights, or give something in the Cerberus arsenal that the player simply cannot overcome. Kitsune was simply a better damn character and "worked" within the universe as it had been laid out. Ninja = Stealth, not, Ninja = Terminator

That is fine, again, but one must be EXCEPTIONALLY careful about including fights in your game that "by design" cannot be won. Sure it helps establish the power of your antagonist, but it is a very cheap trick and smacks of again, lazy design.

How does Blade Runner handle it? Leon (Noe-El by the way) beats the shit out of Deckard... Rachel shoots Leon in the head... cut. print.

So they are "tough" but they are not "invincible".

Xenogears pulls this as well, though it turns out the protagonist is actually fighting a sort of alternate version of himself within an alternate/parallel dimension. It makes sense to the narrative... another thumbs down for ME. Another "very Eva" game, with mechs no less.

My point, somewhere in all this, is that Eva from start to finish always had room "by design" to pull off what it did and still remain a viable material. The room was always there to ask "big questions".

Which is what I've been saying, but you're saying that they are stealing idea's from everywhere and during my play through I wasn't analysing it hard enough. I agree with you here

Well like I was saying, there is being influenced by "such as drinking to much and making bad decisions", and being "inspired by", which is getting into the material and making it your own. Swilling booze and making moon shine isn't on the same level as tasting a wine, and formulating your own process.

We do agree on many points, even though we are coming from very different perspectives. Good times.

Perhaps as consequence of the monolithic culture that's starting to (read has) take over (see spoiler above)?

Another sure fire tangent that could best be discussed over beer' n' tacos. =D

No problem; anything can be interesting if you look beneath the surface. You sir are both a scholar and a gentleman(/woman)

Thirty something male, married now for 15 years, kids, flight instructor, maintenance inspector for a major airlines, electrical engineer, finishing a masters of mathematics. Been playing games since pong was new, used to work for Gamestop corporate. Written some software for simulations, brother in law works at a major game developer studio, brother is a commercial artist. Been a practicing Soto Zen Buddhist for a little over 17 years (although I tend towards Rinzai)... speak some Japanese, second Dan Kendo... library full of books. Grew up on a farm in the "deep south", gun owner as well as having a ridiculous collection of anime n' games!

I roll with Mark Twain on this one... never let academics get in the way of your education.

Oh but as far as you're opener where you talk about eastern culture, particularly Japanese, you missed out one thing; the cultural anxiety that has been pumped into a lot of their works after being annexed at the end of world war 2. But yeah; Shintoism has a massive influence over the Japanese world view.

Well you know, I have actually debated that point before... I did leave it out mostly because I didn't want to conflate any more than I had to the core of the discussion. Japan is very "western" but it has a lot of the old stuff still in the rears in the same way that the United States is littered with churches and politics references the divine. It won't be going anywhere anytime soon.

I think it is also useful to keep in mind that there is always a sort of "keeping ones finger on the pulse of cool" when it comes to creating stuff for a mass audience. Sometimes the fashion changes and with it the medium follows, so there is that to consider as well when it comes to the discussion of self expression, or providing material so that others may reflect upon what they are already considering.

Hollywood is a good place to look at to sort of get the gist of this idea. Mars shit gets popular in the science culture, a year or so later... 3 or 4 Mars movies hit the streets. Was it expression?

Eh? Maybe, but it is just as likely that it is chasing the almighty dollar with a mouse trap.

On that topic, considering Bioware... recently they announced that they where switching to the Frostbite 2 engine with the desire to craft better "fantasy worlds"... I mean... there we go.

I suspect that they are highly interested in finding a vehicle into the "Skyrim" market, chasing after the tech bubble. Must like spending money! =D

That image is fantastic, amazing profile shot.

Strong black negative space is common in baroque. Dagger in the heart is not there by accident, the red color of the handle probably there to catch the eye, the detail of the blood is an attention to detail that the rest of the scene lacks due to the geometry/form, the proportion of the scene speaks a strong visual language of insignificance in the face of "....."

At the end of the day, it's just damn cool! (Cool Design, that intangible blade runner magic) =D


Enjoy!

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Never thought about it, doesnt matter. Could bring that argument up for ME1. The insectoid things run the citidal and shown that they open the citidal for the reapers. End of the day, can we stop bitching about the ending of ME3, its getting retarded now. The game came out a year ago.

 

[Austin Manning]

Never thought about it, doesnt matter. Could bring that argument up for ME1. The insectoid things run the citidal and shown that they open the citidal for the reapers. End of the day, can we stop bitching about the ending of ME3, its getting retarded now. The game came out a year ago.

Wow, you know almost no one here is bitching right? We were actually having a discussion about something I was uncertain about (and it morphed into a conversation about Gainax, but I digress). Did you just come here to come here to whine after you saw the thread name?

 

[AD-Stu]

You're right it just grinds the hell out of my gears...there's so many more important issues to be pissed about than the sub-par ending to a video games series. in my opinion we didn't even DESERVE an extended cut. it was Bioware's artistic vision and if they wanted Shepherd to turn into a giant bear with laser shooting eyes, then that would have been their right to do so. the fact that they even bothered to pump out an extended ending was a kindness they did not have to give. people should learn cut their losses and move on to whine about something else.

*shrugs*

There's a whole forum full of other posts, some of which I'm sure are covering those "many more important issues". If there aren't, you're free to start them And like I said, people still start threads about KOTOR, Star Wars and all sorts of other stuff years and years later. In a way I think the continued existence of threads like this is actually a backhanded complement to the Mass Effect series, because it's saying "We consider you to be approaching a Star Wars level of cultural significance... but you did something bad on the same level as the Star Wars prequels in the process".

The topic's clearly going to persist, now and maybe for years to come. Learn to cut your losses and deal with it

As for the artistic vision bit I think you missed probably the most important aspect in why Bioware released the Extended Cut. Here's what I would have added (in bold):

"it was Bioware's artistic vision and if they wanted Shepherd to turn into a giant bear with laser shooting eyes, and lose a huge number of paying customers in the process then that would have been their right to do so."

We can talk until we're blue in the face about whether video games really are art or not (my personal view is that I don't care) but something that's undeniable fact is that they're also commercial, consumer products. Bioware didn't pump out an extended ending out of the kindness of its heart, it did it because it wanted to salvage some good will from its customer base. They chose future sales over artistic integrity. If they were a band I guess people would be calling them sellouts right now. But in the business they're in, they probably made the smart choice...

 

[The Ubermensch]

snippers

I disagree with this; NERV and Gendo never tell Shinji and the audience everything. I think the point behind this is that "you are never going to make decisions with full context" and Thrid Impact was the attaining of all context and turning the world white. Like for example when the Dummy Plug takes over EVA-01 and beats EVA-04 into a pulp, nearly killing Suzuhara. I bet you if Shinji had known Gendo was about to let an unstable Rei thing take over EVA-01 Shinji would have fought and attempted to defeat EVA-04 without damaging Suzuhara's plug. Instead, this happened...

Completely agree. Now that said the question of the nature of the Eva units themselves is perhaps worth noting. Are they a metaphor, or are they tangible genetic clones or chimeras of the female parents of the children? I have puzzled over that on and off, concluding both, depending on the point of view. I think there is enough "on screen" evidence to support both positions.

This also brings up an additional "suppose", going with a theme of sexual reproduction, is it "plausible" that the Eva units themselves once "impregnated" with the children are both symbiotically given "life", and also engage in a sort of "protection" mode of that child. The child's emotional state due to the symbiosis could be said then to be driving force behind any "change" that the Eva organism will undergo. This work in a Buddhist context in that "evolution" by modern Buddhist standards is similar to the modern Christian notion of "intelligent" design, albeit, with some caveats.

Simply suggesting some ideas, it's not all gold. My analysis are almost exclusively reductionist and linear for the purposes of coming to grips with a thing, even a differential.

If I were to treat "emotion" like a color in this sense (such as a MtG) I think there could be some ground here. Maybe this is what you have been saying all along?

Not exactly; though I can understand how you got there. There's a lot of Freudian Psychology involved. In the case of Shinji this is true; Rei is literally a clone of Yui and they often talk about EVA-01 being Yui as well, but they don't talk that way about EVA-00 or EVA-02. Another thing to note is that the EVAs only get protective over Shinji or rather go berserk around Gendo's fucked little family unit. When the dummy plug took over it worked and saved Shinji's life but it wouldn't work after that. Gendo even say's while looking at EVA-01 "Are you mad at me Yui?". Same with Sachiel (The first Angle Shinji fights) and Zeruel; Shinji was in real danger and the spirit of EVA-01 which is heavily implied to be Yui takes over. The only other times another EVA went berserk was EVA-00 in the test chamber, once with Rei as the pilot and it tryed to kill Gendo and the second time with Shinji as the pilot and it tried to kill Rei.

The point is it was circling around Shinji and his relationships rather than a seemingly maternal relationship. EVA-02 doesn't seem to have that attachment to Asuka... in fact it rejected Asuka, though that does parallel Asuka's relationship with her mother. I know that Asuka talks about her mother in EOE being in her Eva but I just don't see that, I see that more her tricking herself than it being literal, but that one, take it how you want...

Shinji rejects instrumentality because a white existence is... well boring. That's Eva's thesis.

I don't think this is supported in ME however because... well we have the damn codex. Shepard asks questions and normally makes decisions based as informed as possible.

The difficultly of this for me is determining the level of intelligence that "Eva" has. Whatever the humans are fighting against does not have the qualities of omniscience so there is always room to assume that it is "alien", perhaps a "progenitor", and that there is more to the tale of human evolution than has really been divulged. Is the earth a cradle for a further move in evolution, or is this a "collection" of sorts. This is very Asimov and not an unfamiliar territory within Japanese science fiction and science fantasy.

There are strong relationships to "some" of the themes within ME if I frame it this way, although for every reason it works in Eva, it fails as a "thesis" in mass effect due to the severe "lack" of time spent detailing the hypothesis.

Essentially the Protheans detail a struggle over a long period of time in which they had "won" up to the point where internal division crippled there efforts and eventually they lost a war of attrition. To elevate the Reapers to the status of near god hood, undermines the nature of the previous establish world.

That is the philosophical Sovereign as a source of authority, and the independent maturity to become "self aware and self guided". A major theme of the first game. This is almost identical to the setup of the "Shadow Vorlon" conflict of Babylon 5. Which pulls heavily from Asimov "Childhood's End".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood's_End

When I say Eva I mean Hideaki Anno; I believe he knows what he's doing because I'm aware of his back story. However his back story is fought with conjecture so I'm not going to mention it further.

However you may be correct in doubting the intelligence I don't know. With Rebuild of Evangelion I'm not seeing the same kind of brilliance that was in NGE. But what's really cool about that again is it messes up the psychological profile I had of Anno and the fact that is able to happen is incredibly marvellous to the point where you have to wonder if it was intentional. I would not put it past Anno to troll everyone in such a way. Is that idol worship? I don't know.

Aside from Mai Waifu Misato.

I don't think you can split that down by gender; Ritsko's Mother's "Casper" aspect locked in the Magi system betrayed her. Shinji let Misato down (though you could argue that in that relationship Misato is the more masculine). I'm even going to say Asuka and her final belief that her mother was providing her with a stronger AT Field and Rei betraying Gendo.

I think the point of the "betrayal" as you say... to some extent wasn't a betrayal; We knew Shinji would break down at the worst possible time and Misato tricked herself into thinking that he wouldn't because he was her only hope. Ritsko knew that her mother wouldn't betray Gendo (("I hated my mother as a woman")) but trusted the Magi system because it was her only hope at stopping Gendo. Gendo knew that Rei wasn't Yui but tricked himself into believing that she was, or at least had some kind of attachment to him. We all know what and AT Field was by the end but because Asuka no longer believed in herself she had to believe in something external, her mother who she knew was messed up but she had unresolved issues with her.

You could argue that it was anti-feminine in a way I guess as we normally attribute emotional responses to femininity and rational responses to masculinity, but again that's a cohort. The point of those was solipsism, Like when Shinji talks to his self image or psychological profile in the episode where he's trapped in the sea of driac. It wasn't a literal betrayal it was a betrayal of a psychological profile

Gender allows me to make a slippery slope argument concerning the black and white, or di-morphic dichotomy. It is not a particular strong argument I agree. Simply wanted to comment that Misato kills her boyfriend, Rei rejects Gendo, Shinji rejects Tabris, and Osuka rejects Shinji.

WHOA! Lay off mai waifu man, she never did that. There was a confrontation sure, guns were involved but Misato let Kaji talk and explain himself like the champ that she is.

>Inb4 Hanako not Emi
>Inb4 Katawa Shojou not Saya no Uta

These where all somewhat of one sided relationships that ultimately fail to achieve a union that meets one of the parties expectations. So if I fusion what you have said and then we use the driac as the direct meme for what is going on, we may conclude that there is a considerable amount of projection of the ego, externalization of confidence (based on what one believes how one is perceived), and ultimately how one see's oneself "ultimately".

To this end there is a certain amount of "becoming" by the characters. Shinji becomes Gendo, Rei becomes Yui, Ristko becomes her mother; that is becoming the thing they fought against.

Be careful when you fight monsters and all that... N. Dog FTW!

Where I am going to try to steer this, is that "instrumentality" is simply "sexual procreation" of oneself... through time and space, as a mixture of what you where before and the "other" outside of a self.

This is a very "modern" Buddhist perspective concerning the notion of "reincarnation". I simply want to make a case that the artist/writer/director himself comes from a culture that, like ours in the west, lives in troubled times concerning the nature of both reality and religious dogmas.

I understand how you got there; again Freudian Philosophy and all that, but I don't see Instrumentality as sexual procreation of oneself and the reason I don't is because it's closer to an Existential Nirvana.

I'm not quite getting what you're saying here I think, and even if I did I would probably disagree. The whole idea of becoming your progenitor, while it is there to a high degree... It was more portrayed negatively. It goes against the themes self determination "Don't Pilot the EVA because you're the only one who can, do it because you want to".

Obviously Instrumentality is portrayed negatively but I don't see it as procreation. Though the symbolism around it was Very sexual I saw that more as symbolic of rape than anything else. Simply because everything comes from Nirvana yes, but in this case everything was returning to it.

Archtypes are INCREDIBLY POWERFUL narrative devices!

Agreed, they become Archetypes for a reason; because they speak to us. There's the old saying that you can never tell an original story, but you can tell it in an original way. Saying that they can be a crutch; its nice when they deconstruct them or develop them.

We could tangent right here and spend a couple dozen pages just discussing this topic alone. The question perhaps is, are archetypes as Jung has describes a "collective unconscious" perhaps even metaphysical? Or are they cultural meme's that are carried through time and space in the way the Heidegger prescribed with his concept of the "zeitgeist"?

The more modern interpretation being that "culture" is ones "operating software". Tons of arguments to be had here, both with very valid points. Ultimately this may be "unknowable".

I think the idea of a collective subconscious is correct; the reason being once upon a time I was having a discussion about said collective subconscious and some guy goes "shit, someone else who has read Borges" and I responded with "I'm sorry, who?". Minds were blown.

As far as a Meta level... err that's the thing with Metaphysics; its not empirical. I have anecdotal proof and I believe in it but never would I expect anyone to take me at my word.

You can spend lifetimes talking Meta and still end up where you started; though probably more anxious.

Space ninja, is cyberpunk and noir, not sci-fi.

And makes me want to vomit in this context... anyway

Thing is Kitsune in ME was your space ninja... we had already met the quota, there was simply no need to introduce another character other than to copy Deus Ex boss fights, or give something in the Cerberus arsenal that the player simply cannot overcome. Kitsune was simply a better damn character and "worked" within the universe as it had been laid out. Ninja = Stealth, not, Ninja = Terminator

Sorry, you said Kitsune and all I thought was this

Can you clarify? Do you mean Kai-lang? I'm going to assume that you mean Kai-lang but leave this little Kitsune here because she's Kawaii desu ne.

That is fine, again, but one must be EXCEPTIONALLY careful about including fights in your game that "by design" cannot be won. Sure it helps establish the power of your antagonist, but it is a very cheap trick and smacks of again, lazy design.

How does Blade Runner handle it? Leon (Noe-El by the way) beats the shit out of Deckard... Rachel shoots Leon in the head... cut. print.

So they are "tough" but they are not "invincible".

That is the crux of the ninja. I wouldn't even call them tough; a ninja will very often run away from an open confrontation.

My point, somewhere in all this, is that Eva from start to finish always had room "by design" to pull off what it did and still remain a viable material. The room was always there to ask "big questions".

Which is what I've been saying, but you're saying that they are stealing idea's from everywhere and during my play through I wasn't analysing it hard enough. I agree with you here

Well like I was saying, there is being influenced by "such as drinking to much and making bad decisions", and being "inspired by", which is getting into the material and making it your own. Swilling booze and making moon shine isn't on the same level as tasting a wine, and formulating your own process.

We do agree on many points, even though we are coming from very different perspectives. Good times.[/quote]

Welcome to the Type One society.

Thirty something male, married now for 15 years, kids, flight instructor, maintenance inspector for a major airlines, electrical engineer, finishing a masters of mathematics. Been playing games since pong was new, used to work for Gamestop corporate. Written some software for simulations, brother in law works at a major game developer studio, brother is a commercial artist. Been a practicing Soto Zen Buddhist for a little over 17 years (although I tend towards Rinzai)... speak some Japanese, second Dan Kendo... library full of books. Grew up on a farm in the "deep south", gun owner as well as having a ridiculous collection of anime n' games!

I roll with Mark Twain on this one... never let academics get in the way of your education.

Very much so; Though institutionalised education has its place its not for everyone and in some rare instances even hinders progress.

20 something university drop out turned entrepreneur; I own some stakes in a few small retail shops. Originally went in as a computer scientist and then transferred to nursing for all the wrong reasons. In the end I ended up leaving because half of the faculty really loved me and the other half really hated me, I would challenge them every lecture.

Born Catholic, became a Neo-pagan (Lilith is my favourite spirit btw) though I've sort of fallen out of practice and am probably closer to Shintoism now than Georgian Wicca.

My life allows me to move around a bit.

Oh but as far as you're opener where you talk about eastern culture, particularly Japanese, you missed out one thing; the cultural anxiety that has been pumped into a lot of their works after being annexed at the end of world war 2. But yeah; Shintoism has a massive influence over the Japanese world view.

Well you know, I have actually debated that point before... I did leave it out mostly because I didn't want to conflate any more than I had to the core of the discussion. Japan is very "western" but it has a lot of the old stuff still in the rears in the same way that the United States is littered with churches and politics references the divine. It won't be going anywhere anytime soon.

I think it is also useful to keep in mind that there is always a sort of "keeping ones finger on the pulse of cool" when it comes to creating stuff for a mass audience. Sometimes the fashion changes and with it the medium follows, so there is that to consider as well when it comes to the discussion of self expression, or providing material so that others may reflect upon what they are already considering.

Hollywood is a good place to look at to sort of get the gist of this idea. Mars shit gets popular in the science culture, a year or so later... 3 or 4 Mars movies hit the streets. Was it expression?

Eh? Maybe, but it is just as likely that it is chasing the almighty dollar with a mouse trap.

On that topic, considering Bioware... recently they announced that they where switching to the Frostbite 2 engine with the desire to craft better "fantasy worlds"... I mean... there we go.

I suspect that they are highly interested in finding a vehicle into the "Skyrim" market, chasing after the tech bubble. Must like spending money! =D

That image is fantastic, amazing profile shot.

Strong black negative space is common in baroque. Dagger in the heart is not there by accident, the red color of the handle probably there to catch the eye, the detail of the blood is an attention to detail that the rest of the scene lacks due to the geometry/form, the proportion of the scene speaks a strong visual language of insignificance in the face of "....."

At the end of the day, it's just damn cool! (Cool Design, that intangible blade runner magic) =D


Enjoy!

You know how much butt hurt that image caused? it just sat on the screen for like 3 minutes while beautiful music played. and your video; I like that guy.

Anyway so I'm going to try and get us back towards D (watched that other video that you sent me to, shandification is now a word). I think I'll have a coffee and make a second post for that though... Gather around children.

 

[Mauler]

Well as I understood it they are whith the other bodies readyeed for harwesting (civies mostley) because when Shep arrived there there were bodies sorted out to be repurposed for biomass... Yeah the cdf was protecting the cruicible by the time it was near end of its deployment(proppabley(cerberus base was prelude to ending(they readieed themselves for final assault))) Aria was retaking omega(or governing it if u hawe DLC) soo yeah ...

 

[mfeff]

snippers

Not exactly; though I can understand how you got there. There's a lot of Freudian Psychology involved. In the case of Shinji this is true; Rei is literally a clone of Yui and they often talk about EVA-01 being Yui as well, but they don't talk that way about EVA-00 or EVA-02. Another thing to note is that the EVAs only get protective over Shinji or rather go berserk around Gendo's fucked little family unit. When the dummy plug took over it worked and saved Shinji's life but it wouldn't work after that. Gendo even say's while looking at EVA-01 "Are you mad at me Yui?". Same with Sachiel (The first Angle Shinji fights) and Zeruel; Shinji was in real danger and the spirit of EVA-01 which is heavily implied to be Yui takes over. The only other times another EVA went berserk was EVA-00 in the test chamber, once with Rei as the pilot and it tryed to kill Gendo and the second time with Shinji as the pilot and it tried to kill Rei.

The point is it was circling around Shinji and his relationships rather than a seemingly maternal relationship. EVA-02 doesn't seem to have that attachment to Asuka... in fact it rejected Asuka, though that does parallel Asuka's relationship with her mother. I know that Asuka talks about her mother in EOE being in her Eva but I just don't see that, I see that more her tricking herself than it being literal, but that one, take it how you want...

To that end I found that Eva was in many way's "anno" exploring his own childhood, as well as his adult hood; to that end anno -> Shinji -> Gendo... as a sort of commentary with himself. The trouble I think (as I recall) was that at some "mystical point" not even anno was sure what the hell he was actually making.

There is a blurring of subject and object, or the creator and the created, a Sartre commentary on the "disorder and chaos of reality".

For a married man there is "am I my father" question that is hanging out there... for many men, there women are a lot like their mothers... mind you there are always exceptions due to the random nature of simply coming into contact with people, the free spirited nature of misato is a great example. Penguin in an ice box... is there something there?

A person could literally spend thousands of hours going over the entirety of the work and never get anywhere. For me it is just that "the exercise" of analysis that is important, not the answer.

Even a robust system such as Freudian psychology, by empirical standards, is a pseudo-science due to it's lack of demarcation (see Karl Popper's treatise on the subject).

There are narrative inconsistencies, but that is why I wanted to bring up the "Shandification" video, there is a consistency, but not necessarily a linear consistency. Getting into esoteric philosophies and religions there is a sort of amazement with it's explanatory power when it comes to "life". I think it is the insight that they bring to the table which, bring people into the work, but I think like Herzog pointed out...

It's a jungle, and if we enter that jungle, we share in it's curse... esoteric philosophies like many if not all eastern philosophies do not have a tautology that one may hang ones hat, it's a never ending story. Though trying to pin it down within a framework is like trying to contain vines with a lattice, the growth will over-run it, bury it.

This is where, especially in Buddhism, the notion of the pseudo-guru comes from. Even in Japan there is a joke among many of the monks that "Buddhism" as it should be understood, cannot be learned in the monastery, maybe in academia, or outside of Japan, but not at the temples... Buddhism in the culture, is dead.

I tend to call it the "myth" or "mythology" of enlightenment. That being said, I tend to stress that anno, himself, is on a journey... not really brushing away the leaves on the path, the audience is along for his ride; he never "actually" had an answer, may not of ever had much in the way of a question. A meta commentary on the medium? Sure. He still is at the pinnacle of that industry and didn't get there without working at it... "he is the industry". He has to accept that himself, but I don't think he ever did while he was "working, on the work".

When I say Eva I mean Hideaki Anno; I believe he knows what he's doing because I'm aware of his back story. However his back story is fought with conjecture so I'm not going to mention it further.

I sorta thought that was what you meant. See above.

I was talking about the "angels" "hive" intelligence as an adversary. Not actually the creators intelligence. In the same way I may talk about the "Reapers" intelligence. What I was getting at is a lack of "omniscience", a lack of the qualities of a "God", sure, advanced, but not a deity.

A sort of Arthur Clarke, technology so advanced it is indistinguishable from magic, maybe even reversed, to magic that has been reduced or corrupted to such a point that it looks like technology.

WHOA! Lay off mai waifu man, she never did that. There was a confrontation sure, guns were involved but Misato let Kaji talk and explain himself like the champ that she is.

I can't be responsible for fan-boy-ism! hahahaha, just sayin, even gunshots are not a loving embrace at the end of the world. The scene is one of conflict. I am not commenting on the character herself, just the scene and the "tone" from scene to scene as having the same "flavor", maybe even an "intensified" tone as we progress from one scene to the next, increasing brutality.

I understand how you got there; again Freudian Philosophy and all that, but I don't see Instrumentality as sexual procreation of oneself and the reason I don't is because it's closer to an Existential Nirvana.

I'm not quite getting what you're saying here I think, and even if I did I would probably disagree. The whole idea of becoming your progenitor, while it is there to a high degree... It was more portrayed negatively. It goes against the themes self determination "Don't Pilot the EVA because you're the only one who can, do it because you want to".

Obviously Instrumentality is portrayed negatively but I don't see it as procreation. Though the symbolism around it was Very sexual I saw that more as symbolic of rape than anything else. Simply because everything comes from Nirvana yes, but in this case everything was returning to it.

I think if I pushed the case I could find some problems with this. Shinji, while he may not want to do it, and then has a change of heart, is not particularly convincing; if we examine him as a character study.

He never gets serious about his place in all this. At least not to what I would call (my) standard. Now this is important because I have to assume that anno knows what being serious is. Making the anime and the films is a very serious production, with budgets, branding, marketing, schedules... that "reality, of reality" is not represented in the anime... nerv, a place that one would think would operate with military efficiency still functions like a child's "version" of how "G I Joe" works.

Shinji's fundamental attitude does not make much if any change. Shinji "plays" like a chameleon "at change". He didn't drop his lemons and go get some oranges, he just made lemon-aid with what was in front of him.

The distinction I am pushing for here is one of "creating" a choice, and settling for "options". I find it interesting that misato, the military, has that conversation with him about his "options"; this is very "military".

He is being manipulated, just in a different way. Misato is no second stringer when it comes to "working a man". Shinji had lost before he ever engaged this conversational jousting. Misato OWNS HIS ASS. =D

Referencing the Shandification video where bt ask "what do they eat", when I watch stuff I ask the question "who is the adult in this scene"? I ask that question a lot in life, so it is a carry over from the massive legal responsibility that much of my work (in the real world) entails. In this series of scenes, Misato is the adult, she has a job to do; and she does it, with clinical efficiency.

She "manages" Shinji. There was never a "choice". The beauty of this series of scenes is how subtle the deception is handled, it's a master story tellers genius.

I think the idea of a collective subconscious is correct; the reason being once upon a time I was having a discussion about said collective subconscious and some guy goes "shit, someone else who has read Borges" and I responded with "I'm sorry, who?". Minds were blown.

As far as a Meta level... err that's the thing with Metaphysics; its not empirical. I have anecdotal proof and I believe in it but never would I expect anyone to take me at my word.

You can spend lifetimes talking Meta and still end up where you started; though probably more anxious.

In the real world I try to avoid discussing metaphysics, I have serious problems with concepts such as "dark energy, dark flow, dark matter" as well, because of their very "meta-physical" quality.

The word "emergent" is also a slight of hand by many people in these discussions as well. It is no better than the word "meta".

Emergence is a property that occurs in differential equations, usually in negative stable spring systems, it is something that is "not" desirable in systems. That said unless a person has some serious math background they are probably talking out their ass (as we all do on various topics from time to time), it's like meta... it's a shell game with language to cover up; "I don't know".

I don't know. I agree with what you have said, then again, I may use several different systems to approach it with explanation and do nothing more than explain it away.

It's like trying to explain "gravity" or "electro magnetism"; I may explain effects and principle, but I only have "conjecture" as to any sort of real "why". I have had several rather advanced courses on the topic... and if you trust anything on this... "(they) don't know either".

Science is "FULL" of "Space Magic".

If you want to believe in something, be my guest; I concluded years ago "all knowledge is arbitrary". Personally I tend to be very skeptical and require sufficient justification before I will consider taking something on as a belief... but that does not mean that much; simply optimizing my own structure, could be wrong; likely am.

Pragmatism.

Can you clarify? Do you mean Kai-lang? I'm going to assume that you mean Kai-lang but leave this little Kitsune here because she's Kawaii desu ne.

Totally dropped the ball here... Kasume, DLC Stolen Memories. Kitsune is just "fox". Herp Derp... even monkey fall out o' tree! =D Kai-lang, yeah... not a big fan of that choice.

Trouble here was exploring the mysterious man as a character study, reflecting Kai-lang as a sort of "Sheppard" that does what he is told. Again, it's just more theme schizophrenia. Cerberus should of been dealt with by the second act instead of dragged out. Though, the whole point here was to hi-jack the game and turn it into a trans-humanism theme.

The game world itself simply does not support it. Husk are simply zombies to give the player something to shoot at. Sheppard already fought a spectre in lair of the shadow broker, great fight... which mirrors the fight of the first game... kai-lang just comes off as a "look at me", I can be like "thus and such".

Pointless attempt to do one better than Lair of the Shadow Broker... wouldn't surprise me if Casey Hudson was "jealous" that Lair was the best DLC, and done with a no-name woman at Bioware at the helm.

Should of put her in charge.

That is the crux of the ninja. I wouldn't even call them tough; a ninja will very often run away from an open confrontation.

Yeah, which is the backwards-ness of ME3... ninja confronting you at every turn... "shoot the tube" to "make something happen"... like the "tube" controls the flow of the universe... silliness.

Welcome to the Type One society.

Mind if I steal that line! hahahaha! Awesome!

20 something university drop out turned entrepreneur; I own some stakes in a few small retail shops. Originally went in as a computer scientist and then transferred to nursing for all the wrong reasons. In the end I ended up leaving because half of the faculty really loved me and the other half really hated me, I would challenge them every lecture.

Born Catholic, became a Neo-pagan (Lilith is my favourite spirit btw) though I've sort of fallen out of practice and am probably closer to Shintoism now than Georgian Wicca.

Pleasure to make the acquaintance. Same story with me, most places don't know what to do with me, so they put me in charge. When I left Gamestop it was under the notion of "never again will I make a rich man richer". Learned a LOT about how business runs, but I mean, it's Gamestop. Airlines are the same way to an extent, but there are many more laws and regulations which limit the BS factor. EE is great, but it is not something I was prepared to do when I was younger... needed to cultivate a lot of experience in life to really make a go of that challenge, the amount of study and attention to detail was not something I was prepared to do when I was a little scamp.

Studied Paganism some, I own quite the collection of Aleister Crowley, an interesting aside book I really enjoyed was Evolutionary Witchcraft by T. Croyle. She draws some very mature conclusions and reflects on her various practices, I found it quite insightful.

There is a pan-theistic view one may take, which suggest that "most all this stuff" is "saying about the same thing"; just in it's own culturally flavored way. There is some "truth-i-ness" to that.

I do think fondly of Kant... I consider him to be the first person to ever really strike at the heart of the matter... "a lazy rationalism", that pervades the human condition from end to end. Reminded me a lot of Tsunetomo of Hagakure fame... "man makes his logic by what he likes".

This is impossible to get around... it's part n' parcel of one of Descartes central positions, Wittgenstein's "impossibility" of communication, and Quinine's "web of beliefs". Chomsky's manufacturing of consent, could go on and on...

You know how much butt hurt that image caused? it just sat on the screen for like 3 minutes while beautiful music played. and your video; I like that guy.

Anyway so I'm going to try and get us back towards D (watched that other video that you sent me to, shandification is now a word). I think I'll have a coffee and make a second post for that though... Gather around children.

I did after I posted back... I thought... ohh shit "THAT" image! hahahaha! Sometimes it is good to "sit" with an image and the music (which as much a part of the image as anything).

A major issue here with a lot of modern shit... (Star Wars 1,2,3) prequels come to mind... there is so much SHIT on the screen doing SHIT, that the scene becomes meaningless; having a scene like that in Eva, while it "may" of been a lot cheaper to do (it was); says more in that 1-3 minutes than 45 minutes of bullshit high energy garbage.

It's the "uncomfortable" silence, a tension that is being built, that "decision", which way was it going to go? It engenders some time to "think", and "THAT" "THAT" is what the audience is trying to get away from... "thinking" upon the scene.

I included the Herzog video to really get at the scene, Look at the image, and play the Herzog commentary; instead of the jungle, just think "human nature, human emotion, growth". The wounded animal, the wounded friendship, the drive of the human condition; destroying; the "murder" that is about to take place, collective murder of assimilation.

Shinji is human, and in that, he takes his portion of the curse to be an emotionally driven being, advancing. We are all "monsters" in this regard, the illusion (perhaps) is that we were ever "anything" other than "that". It is the "monster" that has gotten us here. Can it even be controlled? Can it be bread out? Or is it simply directed? Focused?

Who can save Shinji? Who can save the curse and wretched hive of humanity? Like I said, it ask big questions.

I think you will like this as well.


I like what you had to say on the nature of Nihbhana, and it is interesting, although this is a very Jodoshinshu... the predominate form of Buddhism within Japan which postulates the Amathabha Buddha, and the pure land as a physical place, before the final dissolution. The Portuguese used to call it "the devil's Christianity" due to the similarities of Western religion at the time.

This is conceptualized in a very different way with regards to Soto and Rinzai. While all Buddhism shares the 4 noble truths and the eight-fold path, the Socratic posits and frameworks between the various lineages are often times very very different.

It is like saying "Catholic" and "Protestant", are both "Christianity", that is "following the teachings of Christ", but in practice they couldn't be any more different. Don't expect a Baptist to have anything nice to say about the pope, as an example.

In Rinzai the Buddha has been referred to many times as a "pile of shit" by venerated monks, probably not going to get that at a Jodo temple.

There is also "cultural" baggage as well to consider. As an example the modern conception of "Lucifer" is very likely a direct result of Milton's Paradise Lost, a work of fiction, not something actually supported in biblical cannon. Tons of mystery cults surrounding this whole affair. Usually just summed up as "occultism". Simply the "study" of the small details. Another word that has been hopelessly prostituted by the vox populi.

 

[JellySlimerMan]

If the OP still cares, Patrick Weekes (one of the writers) varely knows if the people on the Citadel made it:

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11154234


-Did anyone on the Citadel survive?

Yes. We would never, ever do anything that made the player feel, on replay, that it would be better for everyone on the Citadel if they just died. The Citadel has emergency shelters and kinetic barriers - even if it blows up, millions might survive. You should assume that everyone plot-important on the Citadel survived.


However, the game proper doesnt tell us.

 

[JellySlimerMan]

In this I was saying who Control Shepard is the Ubermensch. Read back... we've gone off on tangents

Depends...what is your definition of Ùbermench? because last time i check, it was supposed to be a force of good, rather than a totalitarian asshole that used either force(Renegade) or indoctrination (Paragon) to make sure "The Many" make their will over the few.

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Storyline_III#Epilogue_2
Seek the Control ending, and how the Krogan conflict determines the speech.

The Ùbermench isnt supposed to force its ideology (or made up morals) or even controlling everyone because he is the strongest and the smartest. People follow The Ùbermench naturally, and not by being forced, because of its charisma and its other traits.

Also, by becoming The Catalyst, you are basically a tecno god, imposing order when nobody asked for it. You are doing exacly what Epic Mustache Philosopher hated about religions, in that all of them are fundamentally opressive because they tell us that We Are All Equal In The Eyes Of God / Everyone Can Be Special / There Is No Supermen / Everyone is Equal In The Eyes of The Law, and its complete BS because no one is born equal. In ME case, a flimsy definition of "the will of the many outweight the needs of the few" kind of bullshit will not apply to everyone in the galaxy.

What would happen if the Krogan outnumber everyone else since they can reproduce superfast, and they decide to wipe out everyone else because of their warmongering ways? will Shepard be stupid enough to follow this code of conduct? and how The Reaper themselves fall into this? arent the Reapers not only numerous in terms of having lots of Sovereing Class Reapers, but also with the fact that they ARE walking civilizations by having lots of people from many cycles inside them? wont that outnumber ANY cycle they are in, thus making THEM The Many that Shep is going to protect from The Few?

Wait....You mean Shep is a Ùbermench ONLY on Control ending, or the rest of the game?? why? why would suddenly develop this mentality out of nowhere? or is Paragon Shep the one you associate as Ùbermench? we dont even know what is his own moral code and if it has ANYTHING to do with the "Few Vs Many" thing on Control ending. Was even Paragon Shepard using that morality of "Few Vs Many" when dealing with, for example, the Genophage mission on ME3? wont he fall in favor of the Salarians being more numerous than the dying few Krogans? The Salarians even have actual Dreadnoughs with stealth and Thanix Cannons for the Space Battle against The Reapers (you know, Flying Spagethi Robots IN SPACE), but the Krogans are just useful as infantry and nothing else, and yet helping the Krogan is the Paragon option.

Simply put, given the vague attempts of hiding the facts that the words "Sovereing" and "Leviathan" are borrowed from the book Leviathan from the 17th-century by Thomas Hobbes, it seems that they were going for the "Benevolent Sovereing" approach in Control ending.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HobbesWasRight

Even the creatures that made The Reapers, The Leviathans, became the dictators that mantained order by forcefully controlling the minds of everyone in the galaxy (doing this kind of extreme measures is something that, according to Hobbes it was nessesary, even if the Sovereing HAS to break the same rules that he himself imposed)

Maybe you think that forcing everyone to behave with the use of Reapers so everyone is happy, is being an Ùbermench, BECAUSE Shepards own made up morality makes it ok. But that is either being an Utilitarianism (Maximum Overall Happyness for All) or using Immanuel Kant way of seeing "God" as a "Moral Nessesity", basically meaning that a "God" must exist to impose an Ideal of Highest Good (summum bonum) to which all happyness MUST be measured, or else we would have everyone doing whatever they want (like killing each other) because it makes them happy.

Concepts that Epic Mustache Philoshoper hated and accused most Western philosophers for, by blindly trying to rehash good and evil in a secular society.

 

[The Ubermensch]

Snip

Pretty sure I was being facetious but okay...

As far as the authoritarian stuff you're exactly right. Sorry, I've had about two hours sleep so if this is coherent consider your self lucky.

It's the fact that he/she is now a Kardashev Type Three going on Four entity in the control ending. Nietzsche wasn't exactly clear on what the definition Ubermensch was, to me I've always considered it higher than physical prowess or charisma. There has to be a drive to attain understanding and the Ubermensch, to me, is a person who pushes understanding forward.

If you talk to Klomptomists (Don't quote spelling) they will tell you that is is our duty to create an entity capable of escaping our earthly bonds, but don't care if it's human or not. So whats the next goal? Extra solar, then galactic, then universal, transdimentional, transuniversal and finally the omega point.

Reading Nietzsche I got the feeling that he was driving towards the highest form or conciousness as the end game, and that is theoretically the Omega Point. The Ubermensch is often described as an unattainable standard, in many ways it has a dual meaning.

I call all control Shepards the Ubermensch because they are the highest form of life that originated from Earth and that they are answerable to no one, because they were mortals that became God. God is dead, so we built him.

But no, you're right about the authoritarian out look; but that's the writers not knowing how to handle a concept.

 

[JellySlimerMan]

SNIP

If you had problems sleeping, then write what you must in a Text Document, that later you will make a revision of it AFTER you get your fix.

 

[Varrdy]

That's a good question. I also noticed that, during the final "confrontation" with The Illusive man, the Skybox / Background shows moving traffic. I know the real reason is that they nicked this (pretty snazzy!) skybox from the original Mass Effect but the in-game reason is...husks drive cars?

I dunno, in other words.

 

[JellySlimerMan]

Oh by the way OP, you are not alone:

 

[The Ubermensch]

SNIP

If you had problems sleeping, then write what you must in a Text Document, that later you will make a revision of it AFTER you get your fix.

I will, will I? Oh, okay then.

 

[Austin Manning]

That's a good question. With Aria,if you played the Omega DLC,she goes back to ruling Omega,as a slightly better person.

You'd think so, but if you complete the DLC she goes back to the Citadel as it's apparently easier to coordinate the rebuilding of Omega from there. She's still as affected as Bailey or Michel.

 

[JellySlimerMan]

SNIP

SNIP

Since you both were talking about Evangelion, may as well add this:

http://chezapocalypse.com/episodes/s3e2-end-of-evangelion-and-the-audience-author-membrane/

For what i can gather, if i compare ME3 ending with EoE (yes i know, i am comparing 15 minutes of a game to a whole movie), one was done in a rush, was made on the spot because the series was never planned to begin with, and shits on everything before it by contradicting its own message and themes, thus provocating a outrage. And the other was a response to fan entitlement to what was already a functional and intended ending of the series (EVEN when they also run out of money while making it), and that response consisted in shitting on the last 2 episodes of character developement of tha audience surrogate by starting the movie by masturbating to a comatose girl.

ME3 ending wasnt intented to troll everyone and getting pissy. EoE WAS intented BECAUSE of the outrage (and death threats, did i mention that?).

 

[mfeff]

SNIP

SNIP

Since you both were talking about Evangelion, may as well add this:

http://chezapocalypse.com/episodes/s3e2-end-of-evangelion-and-the-audience-author-membrane/

For what i can gather, if i compare ME3 ending with EoE (yes i know, i am comparing 15 minutes of a game to a whole movie), one was done in a rush, was made on the spot because the series was never planned to begin with, and shits on everything before it by contradicting its own message and themes, thus provocating a outrage. And the other was a response to fan entitlement to what was already a functional and intended ending of the series (EVEN when they also run out of money while making it), and that response consisted in shitting on the last 2 episodes of character developement of tha audience surrogate by starting the movie by masturbating to a comatose girl.

ME3 ending wasnt intented to troll everyone and getting pissy. EoE WAS intented BECAUSE of the outrage (and death threats, did i mention that?).

Hey JellySlimerMan,

Thanks for the linky link to that video, watching it now, never seen it before, agree with quite a bit of what he has to say. Let me finish it up and I will continue a response to your post! =D

Watches Stuff...

Well... I don't want to come off as an apologist for either Eva or EoE. During the course of my post on the subject in this thread I think that I said that I liked them both, however, I felt that the original ending was "the ending".

That said, and here is the tricky part. During the course of my post here I acknowledged that I had been a practicing Buddhist for some years and had "a sizable" collection of esoteric religious material. Like yourself I have also studied at the academic level many philosophers and philosophical movements. (I am assuming this because having of read some of your post you seem to know a good deal about the subject).

To that end, and as a "practitioner" I will personally attest to "one" of the reasons that I usually (very usually) "do not" teach or promulgate certain philosophies, especially the ones that are extremely introspective...

If you have not guessed why yet... it is simply because what happens in EoE, is also "just as valid" as a conclusion for a person as the last two episodes of Eva.

I have personally seen it go both ways. Ultimately it usually goes "both" ways, at various points.

People have a lot of baggage and not everyone is ready for that/any/a notion of responsibility and or accountability. Nihilism is in so many ways is the atheist hell. Many people simply do not accept their part in the creative process of life/reality.

To go a step further I don't bother with any sort of practice with someone until they demonstrate they have "2 years" at a minimum of financials set aside for the "possible" depression that the practice "may cause".

This is the "pointing at the moon" aspect of the original series. Simply "pointing at the moon", is not any sort of work towards that goal. This is all to common with the "guru", it is a huge part of Eva; fact is, many people where simply not ready for that sort of "zen" chiming of the bell. Two episodes works, but essentially (just like the video pointed out), the first 10 or so episodes are mech fodder, the last episodes are the depression so another 10 episodes with 2 dedicated to the summing up.

Debate-ably it is a backtrack story dump and writing fiat accounting for 10 percent of the total work actually being an arc. I personally think "it was there" from the beginning to the end. Then again I also said that anno "at some point" didn't know what the hell he was making any more. Most of the "art" is coming from this period. Maybe art by adversity?

I do think it is an element of working in the fantasy genre. It's flexible enough for this sort of metaphor generation.

The backtrack story dump is notorious in Xenogears, which I also mention in one post, nearly the entirety of the second disc is "text". Same deal, ran out of money, had so many loose ends there was simply no way to get it all in without expository dialog dumps which mess with the pacing.

It is a "problem" with this sort of narrative. Now for a lot of folk it makes it "art" because it is loaded with metaphor... it doesn't. It is hard to discern sometimes between contrivance and expression though. This is going to be my talking point of ME3 vs. Eva/EoE. It isn't that hard to figure out in these cases.


I acknowledge the communication and the artistic nature of both works (Eva/EoE). There is a distinct communication happening between both the artist and the audience in both the works. I find it interesting, although Eva/EoE do sit in a pretty big pile of anime dvd and blu-ray in meh' home. In fact I had to laugh because I own Baccanno and Azumangadaiho that are shown in the opening of that video. What I am saying is, it is "interesting" it's not in my personal top 10.

I find it interesting in many of the same ways the guy in the video you shared found it interesting. It's risky to have that much creative control over a relatively big project.

One of the post in this thread, I mention the masturbation scene, it is the tone transition taking the implied fantasy of Shinji to a reality... saying that, I own the series, I have watched it maybe 3 times end to end, and the film twice...? You have seen it. For me, there is going to be a little blurring of the two I.P. in my own mind.

Baring that I found Gendo to be a pederast. The doctor to be a mid-lifer. Could go on and on... there really isn't any character in the work that I could really relate to. They all have a one dimensionality to them which sets them up as archetypes and stereotypes. There is probably something to "this is how Shinji" sees them... shrug.

The video is absolutely correct that western religion is treated like European religion in our pop culture... extremely surface. I have commented on this many times in the past, so much so that I have become bored with the discussion and often times just let people drone on and on about nonsense, even the real stuff (to roll my own eyes at esoteric philosophies in general), uses a lot of allegorical embellishments to make their collective points.


You know... I look at something like Casshern (which I mentioned before) and clearly it is stuff like this that is the progenitor of most of these early "pulp" tropes. Though in Eva it's these tropes reversed. Like an anti-hero's journey of sorts, especially with the gender role reversals... There is a lot of this in the Mass Effect narrative arc as a whole. That's fine, it's all coming from most of the old sci-fi/sci-fan "pulp" which was an rife with esoteric influences and hipster philosophies.

The Series:

Shinji wakes up, great... if we are looking at the hero's journey this is right around supreme ordeal and seizing the sword... at best 3/4 of the way through the arc. It does not really have much in the way of a third act. It does if we assume the world is a fantasy from one end to the other. Matrix trope for the win.

EoE:

Now all this said... for me, one has to "have been" or "be" in a dark place to create effective "dark material". The EoE is a reaction of the artist and his contempt for this audience, but as far as I am concerned it is a contempt for himself as well.

He is the one "making" this shit to be consumed. Simply meta commenting on a jerk off, doesn't excuse the fact he drew it or commissioned it for the purposes of selling it, at a profit. Then again a lot of folk get their start in that industry doing porn/hentai, so it really is just another day at the office.

Shinji either becomes "Shinji" (and let me be frank on this, doesn't matter which thing we are watching, Shinji is a total pussy in my eyes), or he uses his dad's cool Frankenstein robot to murder the planet and eliminate every possible obstacle between himself and his physical desires, in turn destroying everything that could "conceivably" impact his emotional state.

For the most part doing exactly what his father wanted, only to be rejected all over again. Gendo has the same troubles, rejected by his tabula rasa version of his wife.

Alas, no matter where you are... there you are.

I think the AT-Field is interesting, again this is certainly a loaded topic in eastern influenced philosophies.

For me, this is the third act that is missing from the original series. Shinji pilots the killing machine, kills his her boyfriend, kills the world, returns to the ordinary world; and is "just Shinji" in all his looser splendor.

They are both solutions to the same problem in many respects, so as far as I am concerned, it is a giant "whatever". The interest for me lies in the dramatic contrast/polarization of the henshin trope.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SplitPersonality

This isn't any different than perhaps "Star Wars Prequels" where it could be said Anakin is total pussy who is mad at the world because he doesn't have the power to stop death, and make people love him.

It is really the only thing interesting about the prequels, same thing that is interesting about Eva, creative control to the extreme, leads to a reflection of the artist him or herself; the character study of "anakin" or "shinji" is ancillary to the meta story of the artist indulgence.

Is it an entitlement of the audience?

For me no. It is a reflection of the narcissistic nihilism that pervades the western cultures perhaps how that same "sense of the thing" is reflected in the artist themselves and the works they produce.

The joke for me is... Anno isn't above it. The original ending was the calm before the storm, that sense of "oh, so this is what it is all about".

Conquers his depression, thinks he has it all figured out... did he?

Then the fan response... and he makes a very dark very angry contemptuous work... this is coming from him as well. Comes from the same place, could almost consider a relapse of the depression.

It is an artistic expression through and through, I question whether or not he know's enough about the subject matter too "design" to it.

I think something like this handles the ideas a little better. For me there is more objectivity in the work even though it suffers from the same narrative and perhaps financial issues in the third act.


As far as ME3... like you said, although I will add lazy, lazy compounding onto lazy which culminates into a crescendo of laziness.

It's the same sort of contempt for the work, and the audience... a backtracking story dump and jazz hands to get the work over with and out the door. A piece of butter spread real thin over 3-4 pieces of toast, and it doesn't matter. Take a dump in a box and sell it on.

It is a reflection of the culture in which the work and the conversation is being conducted. ME3 (to me) is nothing more than the reflection of the audience in which the work was sold to, a reflection of the lack of craftsmanship, an indulgence. Exercises in copy paste.

Anno, for better or for worse, plays the guru exploring depression and his own revelations as to the nature of ones identity... very eastern in that, very esoteric philosophy. Bioware's nonsense is a different cat in that (for my money) Hudson co-opting Mac, writes himself "into" a story.

It's almost like he couldn't help but jag off the ending. It's not completely hopeless, it just doesn't have anything to do with the series as a whole. Themes are wrong, genre is wrong, the game itself is mediocre at best, within 20-30 minutes the game introduces a backtrack story dump with the crucible which has no plausible in universe explanation and a matrix narrative jazz hands with space Jesus.

Check this out... worth a read rather than me going off on yet another tangent.

http://www.cracked.com/article_18817_5-reasons-future-will-be-ruled-by-b.s..html

I did know about the death threats, it has happened with other studios as well, from game shit to tv shit. Same shit happens in the states and the west in general; I am quite sure that Bioware has received death threats. The difference perhaps is in how that is "spun" as a meta vehicle to carry the I.P. into more $$$.

Like the video pointed out, there was the gas bombing, I remember that actually, so for the sake of safety I suspect it was treated a little differently and (for better or for worse) perhaps altered the work some.

On the other hand... ffs... it's Japan... otaku kids are pussies... in that states they are no more and no less pussies... but the availability of arms is considerably different thus I think it is treated differently.

Didn't Stephan King do a movie about that once?

 

[michiehoward]

I'm guessing the huge piles of what appear to be corpses is what is left of the population of the Citadel......Lovely thought huh?