A Question About Same Sex Marriage

[Random Numbers]

So I was gonna post this on FB, but I think I'd get flamed for it (I have a lot of conservative Christian fanatics as friends on FB since I knew them in HS). So I just listened to Same Love by Macklemore and Ryan Lewis, and I gotta say great song! But there's one things that always been bugging me since before I graduated LHS... the Bible says that homosexuality is wrong but in America there's supposed to be separation of church and state... so why are Christian beliefs forced onto those who obliviously don't believe in the same religion. I asked a teacher at my school this and he kind of skirted around the question, it's doubtless I'd a lot of flak for posting this on FB so I decided to ask people who are a bit more sensible... like the escapists. So what do you guys think? Am I just friends with the wrong people or is there some side to this that I'm just not seeing?

 

[Psykoma]

so why are Christian beliefs forced onto those who obliviously don't believe in the same religion.

My best guess would be because Freedom of Religion morphed from being "The state can't choose which religions people are allowed to follow" into "The largest religious following gets to dictate the laws". Essentially Freedom of Religion became Freedom to Discriminate.

 

[Quaxar]

Separation of church and state? The US? Where have you been since the 50s?

 

[Fractral]

Well, even if the state and the church are supposedly separated, as long as a majority of the residents of said state follow the church beliefs then the church is going to be able to dictate the laws. Not much you can do about it besides move to a better country, like Norway or Sweden.

 

[HoneyVision]

The Bible does indeed say that the act of homosexuality is wrong, but it also says that God loves all of his children. The Bible also says that all humans are equally sinful and have "all fallen short of the glory of God". So next time some idiot tells you that "God hates gays", punch them in the face, because there's nothing that suggests that. I'm Christian and I don't believe that forcing or stopping people from doing what they want is right, because freedom is a right not a privilege. The Bible even says that. Your friends need to realize that it's not their place to judge and prevent other people's freedom. God will deal with them if he wants to. I have many gay friends that I'd never think of mistreating/judging.

 

[Folji]

Religious dogma? That's what it has usually boiled down to whenever I've encountered anyone with a negative view on homosexuality. Or bisexuality. Or any kind of sexuality or sexual activity beyond good ol' missionary under the covers with the opposite sex!

Just kidding about the last one, though I really can't remember meeting many (if any) people who have disapproved of same sex relations without proudly referring to either religion or the norms of some kind of pocket society. Really makes it hard to see things from their point of view when it's a view they're sticking to because it's a rigid part of something else.

 

[gazumped]

The government makes the rules and the people (in a democracy at least) make the government (well, to an extent, anyway). If the majority of people don't want gay people to get married, even if their reasoning is because of their religion, then they're going to vote in politicians who aren't going to let gay people get married.

Religion shouldn't affect laws but laws are governed by what people think is right, and unfortunately sometimes what people think is right is governed by religion.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

1. America is a representative democracy where leaders are elected by voters.
2. A large proportion of voters subscribe to a religion with hostile attitudes towards homosexuality.
3. Representatives of those voters are required (democratically and practically) to represent those attitudes.
4. Laws are passed that are hostile towards homosexuality.

 

[Random Numbers]

Thanks for all the responses everyone! I guess I just don't really get why nobody's ever brought up this point before, like nobody has... it's just bizarre to me and unfair. I mean I went to various religious school from elementary through High school,(LHS stands for Lutheran High School) and in all that time they never really even entertain the notion that someone could have a different set of beliefs as them, even though there were always kids who were Catholic, Muslim, and Atheists at the school, who do feel differently. We live in an age where more and more people are finding new faiths or rejecting the notion of religion entirely, the old model of the church is dying, and yet many still subscribe to this false notion of a radical, hateful God who sends hurricanes and school shooters on a country that allows gays to marry. Why can't the church be more moderate, or at least teach it's followers to be more accepting, surely that would cast it in a better light. Btw if any of you have lived in the south is it really as bad for gays as it's stereotyped to be? I always read about teenagers getting bullied and disowned for their sexuality. I myself am Bisexual I like boys and girl, though mostly girls... however I also kind of want to get a sex change, I'd feel a lot better as pretty little girl instead of a boy.

 

[lechat]

i think gays would have an easier time getting equal rights if they didn't try for marriage. all you need to do is add another option. lets call it gayrriage, basically it's exactly the same as marriage but has a different name so churches can't complain

also i wouldn't poke blame at christians on this. i can point you a greater number of ppl from other religions or no religion at all that hold the opion that being gay is bad... but not if they are 2 hot chicks and they can watch
basically no politician is gonna go against any group of potential voters unless it has the chance to win over other voters somewhere else. its the same reason you are unlikely to see gun control in the U.S

 

[Vault101]

huh that song seems quite popular right now....(I also like wing$ should check it out)

its not always religious....somtimes its "I'm not gainst gays but *some bullshit twisting of words*"

 

[WarHamster40K]

i think gays would have an easier time getting equal rights if they didn't try for marriage. all you need to do is add another option. lets call it gayrriage, basically it's exactly the same as marriage but has a different name so churches can't complain

also i wouldn't poke blame at christians on this. i can point you a greater number of ppl from other religions or no religion at all that hold the opion that being gay is bad... but not if they are 2 hot chicks and they can watch
basically no politician is gonna go against any group of potential voters unless it has the chance to win over other voters somewhere else. its the same reason you are unlikely to see gun control in the U.S

The counterpoint that I often see on this aspect comes from past social segragations, such as why would women need to vote or why should African-Americans drink from the same water fountains as other people. Many people have lauded civil unions as alternatives to same-sex marriages; however, they often don't carry the same legal or financial ramifications, depending on what state/organization/jurisdiction is involved. Marriage is often universally accepted, civil unions are a gray area. I've known someone who couldn't see their civil union spouse in the hospital (even though they'd been together for 10 years), but her argumentative brother could go in because he was family. They also couldn't be on each other's insurance plan because civil unions weren't recognized as a valid option (only marriages were).

If you want to grant civil unions the same legal/social/economic benefits as marriage and only withhold the name, then the significance of the marriage that would be left is the religious connotation of having a baptism or a bar mitzvah. Keep the ceremony a purely religious event, keep the legal aspect a purely legal matter. However, when I've offered this suggestion to people, I often get the "government interfering with (insert religion here)" response. Offering "gayrriages" is akin to offering different water fountains for different racial profiles but have water from the same water source. It's often done to help appease a subset of the population and does little to benefit the continuation of society as a whole. Personally, I feel that as long as everyone knows what they're getting into and there's enough consent to go around, life's too short to get hung up on "why" and "what if".

 

[MasochisticAvenger]

To me, being against gays getting married is like being against Dark Souls 2 getting an easy mode: it isn't going to affect you, so shut up about it. I have never heard a legitimate reasons why gays shouldn't get married, and it is something we're going to look back on in the future the same way we look back on racism today. It's going to be a whole lot "how the hell did we let this go on for so long?" I swear if there is a god, he must be going "should've gone with Dolphins..." from time to time.

Whenever someone says to me "Gays shouldn't be allowed because the bible says its wrong" I just reply "Well the bible also suggested that Eve had sex with one of her sons, so I guess incest must be okay".

 

[lechat]

i think gays would have an easier time getting equal rights if they didn't try for marriage. all you need to do is add another option. lets call it gayrriage, basically it's exactly the same as marriage but has a different name so churches can't complain

also i wouldn't poke blame at christians on this. i can point you a greater number of ppl from other religions or no religion at all that hold the opion that being gay is bad... but not if they are 2 hot chicks and they can watch
basically no politician is gonna go against any group of potential voters unless it has the chance to win over other voters somewhere else. its the same reason you are unlikely to see gun control in the U.S

The counterpoint that I often see on this aspect comes from past social segragations, such as why would women need to vote or why should African-Americans drink from the same water fountains as other people. Many people have lauded civil unions as alternatives to same-sex marriages; however, they often don't carry the same legal or financial ramifications, depending on what state/organization/jurisdiction is involved. Marriage is often universally accepted, civil unions are a gray area. I've known someone who couldn't see their civil union spouse in the hospital (even though they'd been together for 10 years), but her argumentative brother could go in because he was family. They also couldn't be on each other's insurance plan because civil unions weren't recognized as a valid option (only marriages were).

If you want to grant civil unions the same legal/social/economic benefits as marriage and only withhold the name, then the significance of the marriage that would be left is the religious connotation of having a baptism or a bar mitzvah. Keep the ceremony a purely religious event, keep the legal aspect a purely legal matter. However, when I've offered this suggestion to people, I often get the "government interfering with (insert religion here)" response. Offering "gayrriages" is akin to offering different water fountains for different racial profiles but have water from the same water source. It's often done to help appease a subset of the population and does little to benefit the continuation of society as a whole. Personally, I feel that as long as everyone knows what they're getting into and there's enough consent to go around, life's too short to get hung up on "why" and "what if".

yup all good points but baby steps man
the problem with gay marriage is that it is seen by the church as a union between man and woman under god, remove that from the equation and just have something with equal rights and a different name and ppl might start to realize it's not the end of the world

the thing with the whole equal rights for blacks thing was that it didn't happen overnight. 1 day a bunch of guys got together and decided "hey maybe we should stop kicking the shit out of those black dudes" a little while later someone decided they would allow em to occupy the same building as the far superior whites and a little while after that some dude developed the courage to marry one.
if racial equality keeps increasing at the same blistering rate it has for the last 100 years i dare say one day we will live in a world where our darker skinned cousins will one day be able to hail a cab as reliably as us and get arrested less!!!

 

[Something Amyss]

the Bible says that homosexuality is wrong but in America there's supposed to be separation of church and state...

We're a nation of hypocrites.

The Bible does indeed say that the act of homosexuality is wrong

Only if you mean the current Bible, as the ancient scriptures did not.

In fact, once they find themselves on the wrong side of history, they will suddenly discover the "real" meaning of that infallible text written by God. You know, just like with slavery and the like.

The government makes the rules and the people (in a democracy at least) make the government (well, to an extent, anyway). If the majority of people don't want gay people to get married, even if their reasoning is because of their religion, then they're going to vote in politicians who aren't going to let gay people get married.

Thankfully, civil rights are not an issue of majority rule.

i think gays would have an easier time getting equal rights if they didn't try for marriage. all you need to do is add another option. lets call it gayrriage, basically it's exactly the same as marriage but has a different name so churches can't complain

Errr...Have you followed this at all? Like, when Vermont called them Civil Unions, the nation pitched a fit. Gays also have never gotten equal rights out of a "don't call it marriage" deal.

If you're trying to be funny, I guess well played. If you're serious, then I direct you to the opposition to civil unions and domestic partnerships in US states.

America doesn't want gays to have rights. The damage to marriage is nothing more than an excuse to do what they want to do anyway.

 

[idodo35]

in America there's supposed to be separation of church and state...

well the key word is supposed... idk how this works at america but i live in israel and here we have the same problem...
the cause here is a bit more obvious the religious partys (we have many parties not only 2) are rather powerfull and are essatinal for the right wing goverments majority (they have around 1 sixth of the votes if you put them all together)
so in order to get their support the prime minister has to work by their rules and answer to their demands, one of wich is that marrige and divorce are handeled by rabis and is dictated by religious rules (with alternative options for religious minoritis) this means that there is no same sex marrige and also no marrige between jewish and none jewish people (which leads to many people just becoming jewish in order to get married) it also prevents bastard children (who were born to not married couples) from getting married...
so yea marrige rules suck here even more than in america...

 

[verdant monkai]

Also, people like to pick bits they like out of the bible and ignore the bits they don't like.

This is completely right for example if they wanted to follow the Bible's teachings exactly, they would follow the old testament as well as the new. For example they would all be circumcised, make sacrifices, and not allow women to even talk in Church. There is some crazy shit in the old testament, and the stuff that is popular is referenced and used to attack people (e.g thou shalt not be gay), but the genital mutilation is quick to be ignored, with the excuse of the 'new covenant'. Seriously if you don't like the old testament, don't cherry pick the bits you like just stick to the teachings of big J.

I cant really bring myself to get worked up about Gay marriage, as I am not gay and no one close to me is either. If presented with an online petition I would sign it and say yeah why not? It dosent affect me if they get married and it makes them happy if they do so lets just let them.
It should be up to the individual church no one should be forced to allow it, but everyone should be allowed to do it if they are ok with it.

 

[Innegativeion]

Also, people like to pick bits they like out of the bible and ignore the bits they don't like.

What most blind subscribers to "damn gays" mentality don't realize is, the strongest argument in the bible against homosexuality comes from Leviticus, which is full of weird shit like this;



"You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together."

"You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard."

"Whoever utters the name of the Lord must be put to death. The whole community must stone him, whether alien or native. If he utters the name, he must be put to death."


also, you



can't go anywhere near ladies during their time of the month,

CAN sell your daughter into slavery,

CAN'T go to church if you NEED GLASSES to see