A series of questions to those who want change in female game roles.

[Stasisesque]

"Boyfriends" implying males in general.

They can't stand the fact that something in a videogame looks better than themselves, and that men in general like gawking at something that isn't even real.

I'm not really sure where you're trying to go with this argument, but if I were a man, I'd be pretty offended by the insinuation men in general prefer checking out pixels and polygons to a real woman.

Sure, some videogame characters are uncannily attractive - but they're impossible to do anything with. It's just kind of, I don't know, creepy? Pitiful? That any man would find themselves more drawn to a glorified drawing than a flesh and blood woman.

 

[Conner42]

Most game devs don't give a fuck about this because they know it's not really an issue to 99% of their audience/consumer base. Maybe a developer or two may take note of the complaining and throw in a tad more depth to their female characters in games. The overall situation will remain unchanged because most game developers continue to be male (they will make what they know best) and most gamers continue to be male. It's womens' problem that they're not interested in game development anywhere near as much as males, yet feminists have the nerve to moan and whine when the occasional game catering to a male audience portrays them "wrongly" or whatever. Politically sensitive twats.

I, like any other gamer, expect good writing/plot/gameplay/etc in every game. But I'm also proud to say that I DON'T mind seeing a pair of tits bouncing around my fantasy world.

I have all the respect in the world for women, the same amount of respect I have for my fellow man. So then why the do I get called a "immature sexist perverted jerk who objectifies women" for appreciating the female body? Nature/evolution fucking programmed me to do it over the course of a million years, problem? Christ.

Feminists are only angry about this issue because graphics in videogames have reached a level where a beautiful female character can look attractive enough to pull their boyfriends' eyes away from themselves and focus on the TV screen. It's not "objectifying" as much as being subconciously jealous (look up Female Hypoagency).

Once again....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oa_3HC8vdQ

This is what I hate about this whole discussion. Barely anybody is willing to listen to each other, but, I'll digress for a second here.

Can you, Tippy, show me where this was the case? Is it really jealously? Are you really getting called an "immature sexist perverted jerk who objectifies women"? Is the gaming industry really not changing, even though more people are playing games now than ever? And what do you mean it's women's fault that they're not as interested in gaming development as men are? Is it really that way? Could it be any other things, like, oh, I unno', social conditioning? Is female hypoagency really a thing, or is it just some bullshit some angry men came up with so they can excuse themselves of everything they're being criticized on?

 

[Tippy]

Uh huh.
It's just some big evil feminist conspiricy.
And onto the ignore list you go.
We had fun, but this can never be. </3

Call it whatever you like.
This whole "movement" will be gone in a few months, mark my words.
The game industry will go on as if nothing has happened, it isn't even vaguely impacted by feminists. You can quote me in a few months if you like.
Put me on ignore, it's not going to change the final outcome of this

I'm not really sure where you're trying to go with this argument, but if I were a man, I'd be pretty offended by the insinuation men in general prefer checking out pixels and polygons to a real woman.

Sure, some videogame characters are uncannily attractive - but they're impossible to do anything with. It's just kind of, I don't know, creepy? Pitiful? That any man would find themselves more drawn to a glorified drawing than a flesh and blood woman.

Call it creepy, call it pitiful, it is the driving force behind countless games, countless game studios and countless industries. My "argument" isn't really an argument, it's just facts.
Sex sells in all markets, video games included. That Harley motorcycle will look twice as good to a potential buyer when it has a bikini-clad girl resting on it.
And why don't they make a underwear-clad hunky guy lay on the motorcycle? Because the target consumer (i.e. males) will say "what the fuck?" and not buy it. Video games fall into the same category. Most of the target consumers are male, most of the developers THEMSELVES are male, so they will do what it takes to help sell their games. If it means ramping up the sexy girls, so be it. And those games have sold like hotcakes.

ARGH this is such obvious stuff, why am I having to explain it -_-

 

[Stasisesque]

I'm not really sure where you're trying to go with this argument, but if I were a man, I'd be pretty offended by the insinuation men in general prefer checking out pixels and polygons to a real woman.

Sure, some videogame characters are uncannily attractive - but they're impossible to do anything with. It's just kind of, I don't know, creepy? Pitiful? That any man would find themselves more drawn to a glorified drawing than a flesh and blood woman.

Call it creepy, call it pitiful, it is the driving force behind countless games, countless game studios and countless industries. My "argument" isn't really an argument, it's just facts.
Sex sells in all markets, video games included. That Harley motorcycle will look twice as good to a potential buyer when it has a bikini-clad girl resting on it.
And why don't they make a underwear-clad hunky guy lay on the motorcycle? Because the target consumer (i.e. males) will say "what the fuck?" and not buy it. Video games fall into the same category. Most of the target consumers are male, so many developers will do what it takes to help sell their games.

ARGH this is such obvious stuff, why am I having to explain it -_-

Sex sells, yes, but you are arguing that women are jealous of these characters.

Feminists are only angry about this issue because graphics in videogames have reached a level where a beautiful female character can look attractive enough to pull their boyfriends' eyes away from themselves and focus on the TV screen. It's not "objectifying" as much as being subconciously jealous (look up Female Hypoagency).

You seem to be suggesting they are equivalent to real life women, or even better, so much that men will be actively drawn away from real women. This is why negative stereotypes in games are a problem.

 

[Tippy]

Once again....

This is what I hate about this whole discussion. Barely anybody is willing to listen to each other, but, I'll digress for a second here.

Can you, Tippy, show me where this was the case? Is it really jealously? Are you really getting called an "immature sexist perverted jerk who objectifies women"? Is the gaming industry really not changing, even though more people are playing games now than ever? And what do you mean it's women's fault that they're not as interested in gaming development as men are? Is it really that way? Could it be any other things, like, oh, I unno', social conditioning? Is female hypoagency really a thing, or is it just some bullshit some angry men came up with so they can excuse themselves of everything they're being criticized on?

Feminists view males who support games with over-sexualized female characters as sexist perverted jerks who objectify women. Period. There's no question about it.

And you talk about "social conditioning"? I KNEW you would play that card (all females do). Let me tell you about social conditioning and how it relates to female hypoagency:


It is all explained there with extremely obvious facts, you can replace most of her statements with "video games" and "game development" and it would fit perfectly.
Watch all of it, at first it may sound offensive but she explains and covers everything.

It is a very real phenomenon and it explains almost everything that has happened since the dawn of mankind and still happening today. Technology-wise we have gone forward leaps and bounds in the past 100 years, but our minds still work on the same rules and foundations as they always have.

 

[burningdragoon]

You know what's getting to be more annoying then gender/sexism threads? People opening their gender/sexism thread with "I really don't like or want to talk about this, but please listen while I talk about it"

Edit: Oh here's the thing. People don't actually want games to be "more realistic". They want them to have more verisimilitude. Or simply to be less stupid and ridiculous.

 

[Tippy]

Sex sells, yes, but you are arguing that women are jealous of these characters.

At the subconcious level, absolutely. Females in general automatically feel irritated when they see another (more attractive) female using her sexual characteristics to draw male attention. Always, always been the case. Males also do it to a certain extent, but they are nowhere near as insecure and self-concious when it comes to sexual attractiveness. Women will immediately tend to compare themselves to other women in terms of sexual characteristics - males will compare themselves to other men in terms of physical/mental dominance.

And believe it or not, this applies to video games where the characters aren't even real. At the subconcious level it all translates down to the same feeling and emotion.

You seem to be suggesting they are equivalent to real life women, or even better, so much that men will be actively drawn away from real women. This is why negative stereotypes in games are a problem.

Of course they're not drain men away from real women - at the concious level they know this, but at the subconcious level their mind is constantly telling them "Why? Why games with over-sexualized females selling so well? I don't like it, I don't like it one bit".
Of course I never suggested they are equiv to real life women (wtf?). But as I said above, it translates into the same feelings.

Nature and evolution has given both genders different ways to influence society. When faced with an attacker, most women will scream for help and society will come to the rescue. When a male is faced with an attacker, most will try to fight back (or defend) but they will refuse to scream for help - nature has programmed into the male brain "be a man, don't be a coward, defend yourself!", this dates back to the caveman days when males had to war over females and war over hunting grounds.
Females influence society by complaining (i.e. screaming for help), nature has equipped them for it. It is by FAR the most effective strategy for them to do so.

 

[Conner42]

Feminists view males who support games with over-sexualized female characters as sexist perverted jerks who objectify women. Period. There's no question about it.

Ok, I didn't ask you to link me to a video talking about hypoagency.

I asked you to show me where that particular statement you keep using, you know, there, the one I'm quoting right, actually has any kind of god damn merit. If there's no question about it, then shouldn't it be easily provable? Like, say, oh, I unno, show me a bunch of videos with a bunch of feminists actually acting this way?

Most of the videos of Feminists I've seen haven't really made any drastic claims like that.

Once again...

 

[EstrogenicMuscle]

Before I get into all of the pain of ideology that will surely be in this thread and all the arguments I will surely get into, allow me to have a bit of fun, first.

An idea
"I believe that a woman would more likely wear armor while fighting armed opponents to protect her body from harm.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090513011916/zelda/images/4/4c/Ashei.png

She is heavily armored on her left hand, so she may raise it to block blade strikes, mid sectional armor to protect her liver, kidneys, pancreas, small and large intestines and her stomach since it is a popular area to aim after in a duel. Her neck is armored to protect it from being slit mid fight or even by sneak attack and her shins are well protected while leaving her thighs lightly armored/covered possibly for mobility sake."

Ashei is awesome. I know that Link is an enternal of sorts and is basically canonized as always the hero, period. Completely and always the chosen one, always. Favored by the goddesses, Hero's spirit.

But what I wouldn't love for a little deviation in that and have a someone else with the "chosen" title for once and a different main character. I love Link, but what I wouldn't give to play a Zelda game as, for instance, Zelda or Ashei or another one of the awesome women from The Legend of Zelda franchise as the main character. Sadly, I don't think that would go over too well. Fans would riot if Ashei was a protagonist instead of Link. Zelda might go over, and fans could accept her.

But oh gosh would I like to play a strong female in a Zelda game. Heck, why not even Aryll, Link's sister? I don't see why Aryll couldn't inherit the hero's spirit. And at the very least I want to see her return.

Gosh I love Ashei, she's awesome. I wish she could be more important somehow.

Link is a cutie, though. I don't mind him too much.<3 He's one of my favourite video game protagonists. People who don't like Link are bad people.

 

[Stasisesque]

Okay, I'm out!

There are some strange and angry people in this thread. Also, 'Female Hypoagency' - is it a real thing? Because all I could find via Google was that one video linked above, and multiple blogs and forums discussing that one video. Is this a new Marble Hornets? Some strange ARG, or huge social experiment?

 

[Conner42]

Okay, I'm out!

There are some strange and angry people in this thread. Also, 'Female Hypoagency' - is it a real thing? Because all I could find via Google was that one video linked above, and multiple blogs and forums discussing that one video. Is this a new Marble Hornets? Some strange ARG, or huge social experiment?

It's a very sexist thing.

I honestly think the only people who believe this bullshit are the men who think they're getting their "dominance" taken away.

 

[fuzz]

Sadly this thread is pointless. Feminists don't know how female characters could be 'improved' apart from the usual 'write better characters' bullshit. I don't like the women in games like Ninja Gaiden or Dead or Alive because they are so over sexualised it's ridiculous. So I either don't let it bother me or I don't play them. Demanding they change because some men like looking at their tits is childish.

As always with feminism the problem is blown way out of proportion with no solutions given.

Okay, I'm out!

There are some strange and angry people in this thread. Also, 'Female Hypoagency' - is it a real thing? Because all I could find via Google was that one video linked above, and multiple blogs and forums discussing that one video. Is this a new Marble Hornets? Some strange ARG, or huge social experiment?

It's a very sexist thing.

I honestly think the only people who believe this bullshit are the men who think they're getting their "dominance" taken away.

In this very thread there's a video of a woman explaining female hypoagency. To say only disgruntled men believe it is just fucking stupid.

 

[Stasisesque]

Okay, I'm out!

There are some strange and angry people in this thread. Also, 'Female Hypoagency' - is it a real thing? Because all I could find via Google was that one video linked above, and multiple blogs and forums discussing that one video. Is this a new Marble Hornets? Some strange ARG, or huge social experiment?

It's a very sexist thing.

I honestly think the only people who believe this bullshit are the men who think they're getting their "dominance" taken away.

In this very thread there's a video of a woman explaining female hypoagency. To say only disgruntled men believe it is just fucking stupid.

That's the problem. That video and blogs and threads discussing that video are all I can find on this phenomenon. Though, since my last post I have done a little more searching and found one other video... unfortunately, the other video is the video that spawned the video posted above. Everything seems to be coming from this one place, and I can't find any corroborating evidence anywhere else. To be fair, I also can't find any proof it isn't a bona fide scientific claim.

Hence querying whether or not it's an ARG or social experiment. It doesn't seem to exist outside of this small section of the internet. I even tried following it via hyperagency, but that only led me to a UK charity and the phenomena of charitable donations among the rich. I'm willing to accept that all of this stuff is well over my head, but I simply can't find anything about it that isn't directly related to that one video.

 

[Conner42]

In this very thread there's a video of a woman explaining female hypoagency. To say only disgruntled men believe it is just fucking stupid.

Well, I.....errr.....shit!

Ok, I'll rephrase it.

I honestly think MOST of the people who believe this bullshit are the men who think they're getting their "dominance" taken away.

But, I imagine that statement is still going to piss people off anyway.

On the other hand, why has Feminism gotten such a bad reputation over the years? I keep on hearing statements about them that are just so....not true!

And as for solutions...well, I've been seeing people come up with decent solutions on here.

I believe what people want is diversity. They also want well-developed characters. For this, studios need to invest in good writers which is often not the case. I don't think the problem will ever be solved entirely until we have a lot of women writing female characters for a diverse audience. This isn't that far from being a reality.

I honestly like this idea! And I'm just as hopeful as well!

 

[fuzz]

In this very thread there's a video of a woman explaining female hypoagency. To say only disgruntled men believe it is just fucking stupid.

Well, I.....errr.....shit!

Ok, I'll rephrase it.

I honestly think MOST of the people who believe this bullshit are the men who think they're getting their "dominance" taken away.

But, I imagine that statement is still going to piss people off anyway.

On the other hand, why has Feminism gotten such a bad reputation over the years? I keep on hearing statements about them that are just so....not true!

And as for solutions...well, I've been seeing people come up with decent solutions on here.

I believe what people want is diversity. They also want well-developed characters. For this, studios need to invest in good writers which is often not the case. I don't think the problem will ever be solved entirely until we have a lot of women writing female characters for a diverse audience. This isn't that far from being a reality.

I honestly like this idea! And I'm just as hopeful as well!

I believe female hypoagency exists. I'm not a dominant guy and gaming certainly isn't a male dominated activity. However it exists in that feminists want things to change for them. Feminists aren't capable of ignoring things they don't like or find offensive about games so they demand they change. That is what female hypoagency is.