A series of questions: What is the Endgame or goal of feminism when it comes to video games?

[Friendly Lich]

A long series of questions: What is the Endgame or goal of feminism when it comes to video games?

This thread may be updated with new questions.

Because my character and beliefs will inevitably come into question, as a point of reference I believe it is unacceptable or at least want nothing to do with games that depict or enact violence against females for the sole purpose of amusement or simply for the sake of it.

UPDATE: I removed question 8 because it was either poorly worded on my part or too sensitive. It was meant as a completely historical and biological question.



NEW: #9 What are some real-world examples of how video game sexism has concretely harmed people?

NEW: #10 Are men or people that play games with 'damsel in distress' such as Zelda evil?

NEW: #11 Violence is a perpetual theme in video games, Are females an unacceptable recipient of violence in any/all cases?

NEW: #12 What is an acceptable/ politically correct female antagonist?

1. Is it to achieve more favorable portrayal of women in video games. What does this mean specifically? What does it NOT mean?

2. Is it to invalidate and/ or deny/reject the fantasies of less attractive/ suitable men/ lonely men? Yes or no?

3. What is an ideal, none sexist/ no tropes involved female character? Does she have any romantic relations with men? What kind of men does she have these relationships with?

4. What are female fantasies like? How are men in these portrayed?

5. Can fantasies just be fantasies and be left alone or must they be eliminated?

6. What is the legitimacy of the phrase/slogan "WHAT ABOUT THE MENZ????" does it add or take away legitimacy from the feminist argument?

7. Do male stereotypes also serve as male fantasies? Is this good or bad or neither?

 

[JayElleBee]

I really can't be bothered to answer all these questions, so I'll just tell you a list of what I do and don't want.

I want female characters to be treated with the same level and dignity as their male counterparts.
I want more female protagonists.
I want female protagonists who are written for women, not men.
I want more variety in the types of female characters in our games.
I want the gaming community to grow up a little and conduct itself with more dignity when it comes to it's female/other minority members.
I want male protagonists with gentler, quieter, or more effeminate natures.
I want female characters who aren't involved in romantic subplots.


I don't want to feel like characters of my gender are two dimensional pieces of meat for men to look at, rather than real characters for me to identify with.
I don't want male characters to be villainized.
I don't want all female characters to be completely physically unappealing, just to spite men.
I don't want all male characters to look like models with giant dicks and pouty lips.
I don't want them to all look like Cloud Strife either.
I don't want gender equality in games to be described as a 'battle'.

 

[generals3]

All i'm going to say is that i don't see any problem with how women are portrayed in games. But this is probably because of the games i play (and don't).
Some examples:
I love MGS and there the women are actually often very "strong". Think of "The Boss" (probably the most heroic character of the series), Olga, Naomi and Meryl.
Than there is C&C which basically treat them the same way as men (with the exception of RA3 which decided to go full playboy with the female characters) and even gave us the Female Chuck Norris (Tanya)
Than we have Tomb Raider which, while it did emphasize some physical traits a bit too much, gave us a female indiana jones.

So if you ask me feminazis should stfu when it comes to games. Yes some may portray women in a certain way but many others don't.

 

[Calibanbutcher]

The "endgame" really depends on whom you are asking.
Not gonna answer every single one of your questions, but rather a more general "what is the endgame..."


Reasonable feminists will tell you that they just want some well-written female characters/ protagonists in games because it is hard for them to fully identify with a male protagonist who was designed so male gamers could project themselves.
They do not want to completely abolish sexualized bongs-with-tits female characters in video games, as they do have a place (namely in "frat-boy" games), but not every game needs them, thank you very much.

Less-reasonable feminists: More well-written female characters and please abolish the sexualized female characters completely, since the fact that we do not enjoy them / think of them as harmful to our cause/gender/whatever means that no-
one should have any right to enjoy them.

Slightly Insane feminists: Only female characters, men shall not be depicted as anything but slimy, moronic, villainous scum.

Batshit-crazy-feminists: FIRST WE SHALL TAKE VIDEOGAMES, THEN THE WORLD. MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHHHHHHHHH


1. Have female characters be actual characters and not just sticks with melons nailed to them. You know, characters with emotions, motives, etc...

2. See above.

3. Hell if I know... Maybe the "Metroid Prime"-Samus?

4. See Twilight / 50 Shades.

5. It's not about "eliminating", it's about "diversifying"

6. A slogan without context doesn't really say much, does it now.

7. Which male stereotypes? The evil villain? The monster-truck on legs? The "every-woman-ever-wants-him-muscular-god-of-fighting-and-sexual-prowess"?
I guess some of them are male fantasies, but not all of them...

8. I thought it was quite clear that to engage in fun sexual intercourse, both parties have to consent to bumping uglies.

9. I dunno, maybe some kid somewhere strained his wrist jerking it to Lara Croft? Someone crashed his car because he was busy staring at the ass of that X-Blades (yeah, remember that game?) chick on a bill-board? ( Yes, treblaine, I just made a "Lara Croft is sexualized"-joke, sue me)

10. Nope. Why would someone qualify as "evil" just because he plays games with certain widespread tropes?
Evil is a term I would think reserved for murderers, puppy-stompers and maybe also EA.

11. I do believe that, as long as women get to kick-ass in a game, it's okay to kick female-asses in games as well.
Just don't go "Hur hur, beating women is fun because they are women, Hur hur hur".

12. Anything that goes beyond "My ovaries make me evil, My vagina hungers for destruction, I secretly just want a good dicking".

Any well-written antagonist will do, really...
Example: Ursula in Arielle.
Grunty in Banjo-Kazooie

 

[Friendly Lich]

I really can't be bothered to answer all these questions, so I'll just tell you a list of what I do and don't want.

I want female characters to be treated with the same level and dignity as their male counterparts.
I want more female protagonists.
I want female protagonists who are written for women, not men.
I want more variety in the types of female characters in our games.
I want the gaming community to grow up a little and conduct itself with more dignity when it comes to it's female/other minority members.
I want male protagonists with gentler, quieter, or more effeminate natures.
I want female characters who aren't involved in romantic subplots.


I don't want to feel like characters of my gender are two dimensional pieces of meat for men to look at, rather than real characters for me to identify with.
I don't want male characters to be villainized.
I don't want all female characters to be completely physically unappealing, just to spite men.
I don't want all male characters to look like models with giant dicks and pouty lips.
I don't want them to all look like Cloud Strife either.
I don't want gender equality in games to be described as a 'battle'.[/qu Could you paint a picture of an ideal female protagonist

I really can't be bothered to answer all these questions, so I'll just tell you a list of what I do and don't want.

I want female characters to be treated with the same level and dignity as their male counterparts.
I want more female protagonists.
I want female protagonists who are written for women, not men.
I want more variety in the types of female characters in our games.
I want the gaming community to grow up a little and conduct itself with more dignity when it comes to it's female/other minority members.
I want male protagonists with gentler, quieter, or more effeminate natures.
I want female characters who aren't involved in romantic subplots.


I don't want to feel like characters of my gender are two dimensional pieces of meat for men to look at, rather than real characters for me to identify with.
I don't want male characters to be villainized.
I don't want all female characters to be completely physically unappealing, just to spite men.
I don't want all male characters to look like models with giant dicks and pouty lips.
I don't want them to all look like Cloud Strife either.
I don't want gender equality in games to be described as a 'battle'.

Could you describe an ideal female protagonist? Is it unacceptable for male characters to desire romantic relationships with female characters? When you say variety of women do you mean bodyshapes or something else?

 

[Phasmal]

NEW: #9 What are some real-world examples of how video game sexism has concretely harmed people?

Allow me to answer this question with a question.
I read books, I see films. I generally enjoy media. Why do I only get harassed for being a woman in video game communities? Why does this community in general have such issues with women?

NEW: #10 Are men or people that play games with 'damsel in distress' such as Zelda evil?

NO.

NEW: #11 Violence is a perpetual theme in video games, Are females an unacceptable recipient of violence in any/all cases?

As long as it's not presented in a `haha beating women/***** gets what's coming` it's fucking fine.

NEW: #12 What is an acceptable/ politically correct female antagonist?

One who is a person.

1. Is it to achieve more favorable portrayal of women in video games. What does this mean specifically? What does it NOT mean?

Diverse. Not favourable. And it doesn't mean `taking the titties away`.

2. Is it to invalidate and/ or deny/reject the fantasies of less attractive/ suitable men/ lonely men? Yes or no?

Yes. We want greater representation just to screw you over. Because everything we do is about men.
Don't be so silly.

3. What is an ideal, none sexist/ no tropes involved female character? Does she have any romantic relations with men? What kind of men does she have these relationships with?

One who is a person, not defined by her gender, who grows and develops as a character. She can doink whoever.

4. What are female fantasies like? How are men in these portrayed?

Pretty much what I just said.

5. Can fantasies just be fantasies and be left alone or must they be eliminated?

Nobody is taking anything away from you.

6. What is the legitimacy of the phrase/slogan "WHAT ABOUT THE MENZ????" does it add or take away legitimacy from the feminist argument?

Start a discussion about a female issue. Wait five minutes.

7. Do male stereotypes also serve as male fantasies? Is this good or bad or neither?

Male stereotypes in video games are usually power fantasies. It by itself is neutral.

8.Is the entire battle meant to actually decide which sex holds the sexual power in human relationships and/or nature? as in does the female or male decide if intercourse will occur?

That is the dumbest question I have ever heard.
Two people decide if intercourse will occur, or you are doing it wrong.

EDIT: Yes, I was a little sarcastic and hostile. I've had these conversations too many times, perhaps I should just skip out the next ones.
But please try and understand that guys freaking out because women want more representation in video games is a little hard to swallow sometimes. Is it that hard not having everything aimed directly at you all the time?

 

[Friendly Lich]

hue-manatee I agree with your #11 point/opinion

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

1. No. It is to attain an honest and equal portrayal of women in games. It is not about making all women into Mary Sues, it is about showing that women should not be relegated to secondary roles in games and media in general. It is also about ending harmful stereotypes.
2. No, there is far too much Internet for that to be an achievable goal anyway. You can make your ridiculous fantasy games, however, know that you will be criticized if your fantasy involves a busty blonde with no arms or legs and character traits to match her physical helplessness. Such fantasies probably are harmful, for you and others.
3. This one's a bit harder. Firstly, there is no such thing as an "ideal" feminist character, as feminism isn't about forcing anyone to conform to ideals, rather it is about breaking harmful ones. Secondly, most games that actually have romantic relationships are bad at them. Very bad at them. So I'll go with Samus if we ignore Other M. She kicks just as much ass as other Sci-fi protagonists, and does so without falling into any annoying stereotypes. She also is probably a better hero than many others, as she is capable of working independently or with others without much issue.
4. Well, that depends. There are a whole lot of cultures to consider here, and much like with men, women can have some strange kinks. Some of them are not harmful in any way, some of them are extremely harmful or indicitive of major problems (rape fantasies and typical yaoi), much like those of men.
5. Those that are clearly reproducing harmful ideas of how people should behave should be "eliminated," in the sense that they will be criticized for doing so. Some will simply go away as the social problems that feed them are done away with.
6. It isn't legitimate at all. Getting rid of harmful gender roles helps all of us. In one way it is legitimate, as the harmful gender roles of men should also be considered, but most people touting that line aren't interested in that.
7. Occasionally yes, and it is bad. Games tell me I should be more like the guys from Gears, that I should be big, strong, and aggressive. They tell me that expressing emotions outside of righteous anger is unmanly. That is bad.
8. No, both should decide together, and that's stupid.
9. Like all media, the influences are generally subtle, as they are reinforcing stereotypes, not creating them. However, dating sims have led to the creation of many a "nice" guy with an obsession for awkwardly young girls if that helps.
10. No. That's stupid.
11. No. The manner in which the violence is carried out and what we are supposed to take from it may make the scene sexist though.
12. Glados.

 

[JayElleBee]

Could you describe an ideal female protagonist? Is it unacceptable for male characters to desire romantic relationships with female characters? When you say variety of women do you mean bodyshapes or something else?

Two examples of my ideal sort of female protagonist are FemShep and the newest incarnation of Lara Croft. I love both of these characters with all of my friggin' heart. Shepard has this sort of masculine strength (unsurprising given that she was originally written as Dude Shep) that I find really appealing in women. And the new Lara has this quieter strength underneath an outer layer of vulnerability that I find really quite admirable. They're also both beautiful, but manage to be so without showing 70% of their skin and grunting sexually every time they do anything.

It is not unacceptable for a male character to want a romantic relationship with a female character. I'd prefer for the female protagonist to remain single but if she must be in a relationship for the sake of the story, then I won't complain. In regards to romance, however, I'd much sooner see a lesbian romance plot that a straight one. That's nothing to do with feminism though. I just enjoy same-sex pairings more. *shrug*

Body shapes, yes, but also character types. Again with the new Tomb Raider, the four main female characters in that had some pretty diverse roles and I loved all of them.

Spoiler: Just in case anyone hasn't played or finished it yet.

Lara = The heroine. Bookish but still the kind of woman who can save the day.
Sam = The damsel in distress. A bit of a party girl and a little naive, but not a shallow stereotype.
Himiko = The villain. A woman with immense power and intelligence.
Reyes = An engineer, something of a tomboy, and yet still a dedicated mother, despite her lack of stereotypical feminine traits.

I like those characters because they all feel like people, rather than prizes.

 

[Friendly Lich]

1. No. It is to attain an honest and equal portrayal of women in games. It is not about making all women into Mary Sues, it is about showing that women should not be relegated to secondary roles in games and media in general. It is also about ending harmful stereotypes.
2. No, there is far too much Internet for that to be an achievable goal anyway. You can make your ridiculous fantasy games, however, know that you will be criticized if your fantasy involves a busty blonde with no arms or legs and character traits to match her physical helplessness. Such fantasies probably are harmful, for you and others.
3. This one's a bit harder. Firstly, there is no such thing as an "ideal" feminist character, as feminism isn't about forcing anyone to conform to ideals, rather it is about breaking harmful ones. Secondly, most games that actually have romantic relationships are bad at them. Very bad at them. So I'll go with Samus if we ignore Other M. She kicks just as much ass as other Sci-fi protagonists, and does so without falling into any annoying stereotypes. She also is probably a better hero than many others, as she is capable of working independently or with others without much issue.
4. Well, that depends. There are a whole lot of cultures to consider here, and much like with men, women can have some strange kinks. Some of them are not harmful in any way, some of them are extremely harmful or indicitive of major problems (rape fantasies and typical yaoi), much like those of men.
5. Those that are clearly reproducing harmful ideas of how people should behave should be "eliminated," in the sense that they will be criticized for doing so. Some will simply go away as the social problems that feed them are done away with.
6. It isn't legitimate at all. Getting rid of harmful gender roles helps all of us. In one way it is legitimate, as the harmful gender roles of men should also be considered, but most people touting that line aren't interested in that.
7. Occasionally yes, and it is bad. Games tell me I should be more like the guys from Gears, that I should be big, strong, and aggressive. They tell me that expressing emotions outside of righteous anger is unmanly. That is bad.
8. No, both should decide together, and that's stupid.
9. Like all media, the influences are generally subtle, as they are reinforcing stereotypes, not creating them. However, dating sims have led to the creation of many a "nice" guy with an obsession for awkwardly young girls if that helps.
10. No. That's stupid.
11. No. The manner in which the violence is carried out and what we are supposed to take from it may make the scene sexist though.
12. Glados.

For your #2 response, are you implying that about me? and for #6 there are some people here that would disagree with you it seems. For #8 everyone misunderstood this question so maybe I should rephrase it.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

1. No. It is to attain an honest and equal portrayal of women in games. It is not about making all women into Mary Sues, it is about showing that women should not be relegated to secondary roles in games and media in general. It is also about ending harmful stereotypes.
2. No, there is far too much Internet for that to be an achievable goal anyway. You can make your ridiculous fantasy games, however, know that you will be criticized if your fantasy involves a busty blonde with no arms or legs and character traits to match her physical helplessness. Such fantasies probably are harmful, for you and others.
3. This one's a bit harder. Firstly, there is no such thing as an "ideal" feminist character, as feminism isn't about forcing anyone to conform to ideals, rather it is about breaking harmful ones. Secondly, most games that actually have romantic relationships are bad at them. Very bad at them. So I'll go with Samus if we ignore Other M. She kicks just as much ass as other Sci-fi protagonists, and does so without falling into any annoying stereotypes. She also is probably a better hero than many others, as she is capable of working independently or with others without much issue.
4. Well, that depends. There are a whole lot of cultures to consider here, and much like with men, women can have some strange kinks. Some of them are not harmful in any way, some of them are extremely harmful or indicitive of major problems (rape fantasies and typical yaoi), much like those of men.
5. Those that are clearly reproducing harmful ideas of how people should behave should be "eliminated," in the sense that they will be criticized for doing so. Some will simply go away as the social problems that feed them are done away with.
6. It isn't legitimate at all. Getting rid of harmful gender roles helps all of us. In one way it is legitimate, as the harmful gender roles of men should also be considered, but most people touting that line aren't interested in that.
7. Occasionally yes, and it is bad. Games tell me I should be more like the guys from Gears, that I should be big, strong, and aggressive. They tell me that expressing emotions outside of righteous anger is unmanly. That is bad.
8. No, both should decide together, and that's stupid.
9. Like all media, the influences are generally subtle, as they are reinforcing stereotypes, not creating them. However, dating sims have led to the creation of many a "nice" guy with an obsession for awkwardly young girls if that helps.
10. No. That's stupid.
11. No. The manner in which the violence is carried out and what we are supposed to take from it may make the scene sexist though.
12. Glados.

For your #2 response, are you implying that about me? and for #6 there are some people here that would disagree with you it seems. For #8 everyone misunderstood this question so maybe I should rephrase it.

I was using you in the third person (which is very possible). I have no idea what your sexual fantasies are. Maybe they're like mine and all involve Nathan Fillion boning Nathan Fillion. Maybe you're some kinda freak. I don't honestly care. Most people here seem to agree with me about #6, so I have no clue what you mean there.

 

[Friendly Lich]

NEW: #9 What are some real-world examples of how video game sexism has concretely harmed people?

Allow me to answer this question with a question.
I read books, I see films. I generally enjoy media. Why do I only get harassed for being a woman in video game communities? Why does this community in general have such issues with women?

NEW: #10 Are men or people that play games with 'damsel in distress' such as Zelda evil?

NO.

NEW: #11 Violence is a perpetual theme in video games, Are females an unacceptable recipient of violence in any/all cases?

As long as it's not presented in a `haha beating women/***** gets what's coming` it's fucking fine.

NEW: #12 What is an acceptable/ politically correct female antagonist?

One who is a person.

1. Is it to achieve more favorable portrayal of women in video games. What does this mean specifically? What does it NOT mean?

Diverse. Not favourable. And it doesn't mean `taking the titties away`.

2. Is it to invalidate and/ or deny/reject the fantasies of less attractive/ suitable men/ lonely men? Yes or no?

Yes. We want greater representation just to screw you over. Because everything we do is about men.
Don't be so silly.

3. What is an ideal, none sexist/ no tropes involved female character? Does she have any romantic relations with men? What kind of men does she have these relationships with?

One who is a person, not defined by her gender, who grows and develops as a character. She can doink whoever.

4. What are female fantasies like? How are men in these portrayed?

Pretty much what I just said.

5. Can fantasies just be fantasies and be left alone or must they be eliminated?

Nobody is taking anything away from you.

6. What is the legitimacy of the phrase/slogan "WHAT ABOUT THE MENZ????" does it add or take away legitimacy from the feminist argument?

Start a discussion about a female issue. Wait five minutes.

7. Do male stereotypes also serve as male fantasies? Is this good or bad or neither?

Male stereotypes in video games are usually power fantasies. It by itself is neutral.

8.Is the entire battle meant to actually decide which sex holds the sexual power in human relationships and/or nature? as in does the female or male decide if intercourse will occur?

That is the dumbest question I have ever heard.
Two people decide if intercourse will occur, or you are doing it wrong.

EDIT: Yes, I was a little sarcastic and hostile. I've had these conversations too many times, perhaps I should just skip out the next ones.
But please try and understand that guys freaking out because women want more representation in video games is a little hard to swallow sometimes. Is it that hard not having everything aimed directly at you all the time?

I am not good at quoting specific parts like you so unfortunately I have to quote this whole thing. I agree with your #11 post and I am sure you know most people also agree with you

For your #2 response I have to say that roughly 50% of humans are male also feminism seeks to get a specific result from men so it is inevitable that you will interact with men. Feminism also concerns men. It is undeniable.

for #8 I didn't word this question well so just forget about it.

 

[Relish in Chaos]

I assume all these feminists want is more variety in their female video game characters, which shouldn?t be such a controversial opinion. We?re not in the 80s anymore, where the most prolific female video game protagonist we had was Samus Aran, a largely blank avatar mostly going around in a suit of armour whose gender was only revealed at the end of the game by the developers as a ?Look! The guy you thought you were playing as throughout was actually a girl! Wow!?

Presumably, they want more female video game writers, since they actually know what women are like and believably act in story-driven games, as opposed to merely being sex-obsessed wank material. If you want a non-video game example, look at the female characters in the cast of female author Hiromu Arakawa?s Fullmetal Alchemist. All but two (Winry and Mei) are strong females with well-established personalities that don?t entirely rely on their male companions (and, in the case of Olivier Mira Armstrong, her male companions are actually below her in military rank).

 

[Phasmal]

For your #2 response I have to say that roughly 50% of humans are male also feminism seeks to get a specific result from men so it is inevitable that you will interact with men. Feminism also concerns men. It is undeniable.

for #8 I didn't word this question well so just forget about it.

I didn't deny any of that. But it is just silly to suggest the reason we want representation is to `invalidate and/ or deny/reject the fantasies of less attractive/ suitable men/ lonely men`.
Which basically translates as `are you being feminists just to be big mean meanies?`

 

[Friendly Lich]

For your #2 response I have to say that roughly 50% of humans are male also feminism seeks to get a specific result from men so it is inevitable that you will interact with men. Feminism also concerns men. It is undeniable.

for #8 I didn't word this question well so just forget about it.

I didn't deny any of that. But it is just silly to suggest the reason we want representation is to `invalidate and/ or deny/reject the fantasies of less attractive/ suitable men/ lonely men`.
Which basically translates as `are you being feminists just to be big mean meanies?`

As long as both sexes can have their fantasies co-exist along side each other. That is all I care about.

 

[Phasmal]

For your #2 response I have to say that roughly 50% of humans are male also feminism seeks to get a specific result from men so it is inevitable that you will interact with men. Feminism also concerns men. It is undeniable.

for #8 I didn't word this question well so just forget about it.

I didn't deny any of that. But it is just silly to suggest the reason we want representation is to `invalidate and/ or deny/reject the fantasies of less attractive/ suitable men/ lonely men`.
Which basically translates as `are you being feminists just to be big mean meanies?`

As long as both sexes can have their fantasies co-exist along side each other. That is all I care about.

Well duh.
You literally cannot stop people having fantasies, and I really doubt that having better female characters will suddenly cause all male fantasy characters to disappear in a puff of smoke.

 

[Vegosiux]

Alright, my 0.02? in this.

1. Favorable, no. But I as understand it the goal is that no character should only serve as a plot device, but as an actual person. Redshirts and nameless mooks excluded, of course.

2. I'm pretty sure there's nothing in this direction.

3. No tropes involved is impossible, but remember, tropes are tools. You can't blame the axe if the tree falls on someone. [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TropesAreTools] Again, returning to #1, a female character is still suppoded to be characterized, be a person, and not simply a plot device. If a "distressed damsel" has nothing else going for her than being "distressed", then the trope has been played badly.

4. Uhm, well, as far as I know, they're pretty diverse. After all, women are not a hive mind.

5. Fantasies are supposed to be fantasies, and left alone as fantasies. Thinking isn't a crime.

6. There is a degree of legitimacy to those claims, however that is undermined by the backlash response "WHAT ABOUT TEH MENZ" that's intended to only be confrontational and contrarian. So while it can be well argued that men suffer from tropes too, it usually isn't and the people who argue it are usually shooting themselves in the foot since they don't present valid points and stay with just being "NO U" all the time. Which sucks.

7. I'm pretty sure Rambo serves as a male fantasy, a male power fantasy. But again it's a fantasy, so it's not good or bad.

8. Well, you removed this one so I'll not comment.

9. Some dickheads still trying to act as if gaming is a "boys only" club, or, if letting women in, acting as if those women are only there to amuse and please them. *shudder*

10. Nah. Okay, you get douchebags everywhere, but playing such a game is not a distinguishing trait between douchebag and non-douchebag.

11. Nah. As long as it's not violence for the sake of "FUCK YEA *****!". That goes for violence against both genders.

12. Any female antagonist that is an antagonist who happens to be a woman, and not because she's a woman.

 

[generals3]

I assume all these feminists want is more variety in their female video game characters, which shouldn?t be such a controversial opinion. We?re not in the 80s anymore, where the most prolific female video game protagonist we had was Samus Aran, a largely blank avatar mostly going around in a suit of armour whose gender was only revealed at the end of the game by the developers as a ?Look! The guy you thought you were playing as throughout was actually a girl! Wow!?

Presumably, they want more female video game writers, since they actually know what women are like and believably act in story-driven games, as opposed to merely being sex-obsessed wank material. If you want a non-video game example, look at the female characters in the cast of female author Hiromu Arakawa?s Fullmetal Alchemist. All but two (Winry and Mei) are strong females with well-established personalities that don?t entirely rely on their male companions (and, in the case of Olivier Mira Armstrong, her male companions are actually below her in military rank).

Personally i don't think the "opinion" is controversial but i just despise when social issues are used to push forward that opinion. There are many complaints made about games and many suggestions on how to make games better but using social controversies to push said suggestions is low, weak and dare i say downright pathetic.

It's not like the role women have (or the way they are depicted) in games is somehow gonna turn the male population into misogynists (unless you also subscribe to the whole "violent games make people violent" paradigm) so for the love of God let's leave those social issues out of it.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

Out of order, OUT OF ORDER? Ok, fixed, that?s better? (these answers are mine, I don?t claim to speak for anyone else)

1. Is it to achieve more favorable portrayal of women in video games. What does this mean specifically? What does it NOT mean?

I find that it means portraying female characters as the critics would want them to be portrayed. What that means tends to vary from critic to critic.

2. Is it to invalidate and/ or deny/reject the fantasies of less attractive/ suitable men/ lonely men? Yes or no?

Both. Some women just want to see their versions of female characters in game. Other women seek to curtail what they perceive to be unrealistic expectations on themselves through male fantasy.

3. What is an ideal, none sexist/ no tropes involved female character? Does she have any romantic relations with men? What kind of men does she have these relationships with?

A character cannot exist without a Trope. The impossibility of this question invalidates it.

4. What are female fantasies like? How are men in these portrayed?

Typically through a few Tropes; high status/power, rugged good looks, gruff exterior with a sensitive inner soul, ambitiously confident, charmingly amusing, etc.

5. Can fantasies just be fantasies and be left alone or must they be eliminated?

Depends on who you ask. Some people don?t care. Others might not want to compete with the fantasy.

6. What is the legitimacy of the phrase/slogan "WHAT ABOUT THE MENZ????" does it add or take away legitimacy from the feminist argument?

Aside from a childish and fallacious term? It doesn?t affect the legitimacy of a claim, it?s merely the response to a different claim.

7. Do male stereotypes also serve as male fantasies? Is this good or bad or neither?

As far as what kind of fantasy? Self serving fantasies?

NEW: #9 What are some real-world examples of how video game sexism has concretely harmed people?

Physically or emotionally? One does not exist, and the other varies from person to person.

NEW: #10 Are men or people that play games with 'damsel in distress' such as Zelda evil?

No.

NEW: #11 Violence is a perpetual theme in video games, Are females an unacceptable recipient of violence in any/all cases?

No.

NEW: #12 What is an acceptable/ politically correct female antagonist?

Depends on who you ask. I would wager a guess that she possesses both masculine and feminine traits but who?s motivations are attributed to a non gender related issue.

 

[JimB]

A long series of questions: What is the endgame or goal of feminism when it comes to video games?

There isn't one. Only people can have goals; feminism is not a person, so it can't have one.

What are some real-world examples of how video game sexism has concretely harmed people?

I decline to answer this on the grounds that I suspect it of being a trap rather than a question.

Are men or people that play games with 'damsel in distress' such as Zelda evil?

Oh, probably; but that specific reason has nothing to do with it.

Violence is a perpetual theme in video games. Are females an unacceptable recipient of violence in any/all cases?

Depends on if that violence is targeted specifically at femininity; for instance, it is not okay to say, "Hey, Lara Croft is a woman, right? And rape happens to women. Let's have someone try to rape her in the next game."

What is an acceptable/politically correct female antagonist?

GLaDOS comes to mind.

Is it to achieve more favorable portrayal of women in video games?

Some people have that goal, yes.

What does this mean specifically?

To me, it means female characters whose sexuality is not being used to sell me a product and who dresses and acts like a real person.

What does it not mean?

Joss Whedon-style girl power. It's not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself; it's just a bit tiresome.

Is it to invalidate and/or deny/reject the fantasies of less attractive/suitable men/lonely men?

...Are you asking if feminism is about how men feel instead of how women feel? Because no. No, it's not. What even the hell?

What is an ideal, non-sexist/no tropes involved female character?

One whose motivations are her own and whose sexuality is her own business rather than mine.

Does she have any romantic relations with men?

If she wants to.

What kind of men does she have these relationships with?

I have no idea how to answer this question. Are you asking me to generalize about what kind of man is acceptable for a woman to date?

What are female fantasies like?

I feel like you're wanting an answer based on deviation here, so how about you tell me what male fantasies are like, and I'll tell you how they differ.

How are men in these portrayed?

Depends on the role the fantasy needs them to fulfill.

Can fantasies just be fantasies and be left alone or must they be eliminated?

I don't understand. Whose fantasies?

What is the legitimacy of the phrase/slogan "WHAT ABOUT THE MENZ????"

Any slogan that uses a Z to indicate plurality has no legitimacy.

Do male stereotypes also serve as male fantasies?

What stereotypes are you talking about?

Is this good or bad or neither?

Probably depends on the stereotype.